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Make that 51 backers who didn't get what they paid for. I pledged extra for invisible Predators - the things I was most excited about from the campaign - and never received them or my money back. (I did receive the game itself and other add-ons I'd purchased.)

I think Archon is headed in exciting directions these days, but that still bothers me.

 Talking Banana wrote:
Make that 51 backers who didn't get what they paid for. I pledged extra for invisible Predators - the things I was most excited about from the campaign - and never received them or my money back. (I did receive the game itself and other add-ons I'd purchased.)

I think Archon is headed in exciting directions these days, but that still bothers me.

You can reach out to Szymon by sending an email to szymon@archon-studio.com, and he'll take care of it for you.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Szymon_Archon wrote:

At this point, I'm even more convinced that we're in a prime position to take over the miniature market, considering the fact that GW's process is much less efficient but they have the money to throw more people at the problem. All we need is just 1 miniature-related project that becomes massively popular.

It's pretty absurd that you can do two dozen new tools on a 1 million euro kickstarter.

I expected you to have a mass battle game out by now, honestly. You clearly have the manufacturing capacity to overtake companies like Mantic in your sleep if you wanted to. Do a KS for a wargame, starting with 4 factions of 4 sprues each should be child's play. Make it 10-15mm so we can field dozens of tanks and you sell dozens of the same sprue. The rules I've seen coming from Archon have all been top tier too. Just need an evocative setting. Or maybe partner up with someone already doing good stuff... take a look at Full Spectrum Dominance. Just throwing it out there.

You're absolutely correct. Indeed, we've been diligently working on a Sci-Fi miniatures game for quite some time (Starcide/Chronoshards). However, due to extensive discussions surrounding an IP licensing deal (also sci-fi), which has spanned over three years!!!!!, we decided to temporarily put our own project on hold.
This precautionary measure ensures that we don't compete within the same product genre, plus we had no capacity to work on two projects at the same time.
In hindsight, opting to put the wargaming project on hold turned out to be a good decision. It enabled us to channel our grey cells into the Dungeons and Lasers product line, which, contributed to the growth of Archon by strengthening our production, CNC, and engineering.
I believe that three years ago, we weren't prepared to launch any wargames (own IP) in plastic injection. Doing so would have likely resulted in a false start, and collapse of Archon.
However, today, it's an entirely different narrative. I firmly believe that we are more than prepared now - design, sculpting, production, marketing, sales, and shipping - all boxes are ticked.

Going back to the projects 2024/25:

Our second project, Titanomachy, has already been announced. It features mech combat, pre-painted sprues, and brand new sci-fi Rampart terrain, all also pre-painted.

As for our third project, we're gearing up to unveil it soon.

It's a Fantasy 32mm scale mass battle miniatures game, based on a well-known IP. I mean, we kinda sneak peek it already.

The central issue we're pondering is whether it makes sense to proceed with two mass miniature wargames set in IP settings, or if we should focus our efforts on a single one while revisiting the Starcide/Chromoshards project.

@Archon Studio
(Assuming I am talking to CEO = Jarek here?) Can you please tell if:
1) Will we see M&M sculpts from the boardgame KS released separately, and if yes, how soon?
2) Will you release another giant but this time with options (at least 2 heads,2 weapons etc.)?
3) Will you release animals pack, with enough minis for each species to make the purchase valiable (at least 6+ wolves, 10+ giant rats, 6+ birds etc.) for both RPG and wargame purposes?
4) Will you release ruins and medieval village terrain kits?

Archon Studio wrote:
The central issue we're pondering is whether it makes sense to proceed with two mass miniature wargames set in IP settings, or if we should focus our efforts on a single one while revisiting the Starcide/Chromoshards project.

I have no experience in business or marketing, but my opinion is that currently you rely a lot on a loyal, repeat customer base of D&L, mostly RPG players. I would not try to push them into two big alternative products at the same time. You still need to build up reputation with wargamers.

Re: Starcide, I have a lot of sample packs by now I like the sci-fi Snakemen, but somehow what I've seen so far doesn't excite me.

Szymon_Archon wrote:
Dang, ok. I was not here during this time so I wanted to get people's opinion on it, and why it didn't perform.

for, it just wasn't Warzone. As far as this was concerned I was an old grognard who didn't want a new game, I wanted the old game - just with nicer figures.

But generally I'm loving all the Archon stuff, I personally backed the Aztec style terrain kickstarter and as a retailer I stock a selection and I really enjoy painting the Master of the Universe: Battleground range (He-Man & Battle Cat was a particular joy).

 Shadow Walker wrote:
@Archon Studio
(Assuming I am talking to CEO = Jarek here?) Can you please tell if:
1) Will we see M&M sculpts from the boardgame KS released separately, and if yes, how soon?
2) Will you release another giant but this time with options (at least 2 heads,2 weapons etc.)?
3) Will you release animals pack, with enough minis for each species to make the purchase valiable (at least 6+ wolves, 10+ giant rats, 6+ birds etc.) for both RPG and wargame purposes?
4) Will you release ruins and medieval village terrain kits?

1. Right now, we don't have any concrete plans to use the same sculpts again, nor to release in any other form than the board game miniatures, but this could change in the future, I guess.
2. Absolutely, especially with the new IP wargame we're currently developing.
3. There's a possibility we might consider it for the next crowdfunding DnL miniatures campaign - Szymon is strongly advocating for it.
4. You bet! Especially in relation to point 2. 😉


Thanks

Jarek

Well, there you have it

I'm very excited for what the future has in store for us, as we really are sitting on a massive pile of potential, and we're really only just getting started. I really want more of our future sets to have more options when it comes to assembling miniatures, as it's one of the many advantages of having everything on a sprue. We have started experimenting with multi-part miniatures in D&L V, and I'm hoping that we'll be able to expand on it in future campaigns.

Yes I can't wait until you start doing true multipart unit kits like GW, Frostgrave, Wargames Atlantic...

Archon Studio wrote:
1. Right now, we don't have any concrete plans to use the same sculpts again, nor to release in any other form than the board game miniatures, but this could change in the future, I guess.
2. Absolutely, especially with the new IP wargame we're currently developing.
3. There's a possibility we might consider it for the next crowdfunding DnL miniatures campaign - Szymon is strongly advocating for it.
4. You bet! Especially in relation to point 2. 😉


Thanks

Jarek

Great news. Thanks!

Szymon_Archon wrote:Well, there you have it

Do not stop harassing Jarek with good ideas - eventually he will be so annoyed he will agree (or you get fired)

lord_blackfang wrote:Yes I can't wait until you start doing true multipart unit kits like GW, Frostgrave, Wargames Atlantic...

Yeah, Frostgrave like kits but without those stupid integral bases would be a dream.

While I've no need of another mass battle game it's great to hear that there are more minis that I can use as alternatives (more Giants!) and fantasy terrain coming

> The central issue we're pondering is whether it makes sense to proceed with two mass miniature wargames set in IP settings

No way. Market's crowded with "lifestyle" games as it is. FFG's even entered the chat room and has enough money to fund then drop a game -- then release another.

> for, it just wasn't Warzone. As far as this was concerned I was an old grognard who didn't want a new game,
> currently you rely a lot on a loyal, repeat customer base of D&L, mostly RPG players. I would not try to push them into two big alternative products at the same time.

Agreed. FWIW, Myself, as a collector of generic fantasy, I'm looking at solo miniature skirmish games for narrative and combat. I rotate among different solo miniature skirmish games and should actually play some of my solo boardgames. While I'm hesitant to buy an entirely new set of miniatures for a new mass combat game, it's easier for me to buy generic terrain and figures I can use for games I already play.

I think Osprey Games / Nick's Miniatures has *a* right formula:
* Multiple miniature agnostic rulesets, take your choice.
* You already have miniatures to play the game.
* You don't need to buy miniatures made only by one company.
* You don't need many miniatures to play.
* BUT if you want more stuff, the company that sold you the rules has miniatures you can use.theirs.

Anecdotally, I remember the *trees* being Archon's most popular offering during D&L4 (with requests starting at D&L3) so start your scenarios there. I would start with stealing ideas from Lasting Tales, a miniature skirmish game that lets you build your opponent forces from *your* supply of miniatures, and Song of Blade and Heroes, which allows you to build a warband based on special abilities, so, again, you can use your own supply of miniatures. Yet, at the same time, both games encourage you to BUY MOAR STUFF by providing miniature stats for miniatures you don't have in your collection.

@Szymon_Archon

I just bought the Archon "Thos the young dragon" and was impressed by the quality. In terms of size, I think monsters are probably a safe choice for Archon as the scale doesn't have to be as precise. For example, I think this dragon would work in Lord of the Rings or Warhammer Fantasy battles, or even D&D without any problem.

As you guys are Polish, I will suggest that you contact the Spanish team Alkimia Interactive that is making the remake of the German video game Gothic, and see if you could make a miniatures game from the Gothic IP! Knowing that Poland has the biggest fan and modding community for that game makes me believe you are likely familiar with it.

It has great monster designs, good types of armor designs for different factions, and could work well as a skirmish game or as an rpg! Having that in a WFB scale would be my dream!

 Talking Banana wrote:
Make that 51 backers who didn't get what they paid for. I pledged extra for invisible Predators - the things I was most excited about from the campaign - and never received them or my money back. (I did receive the game itself and other add-ons I'd purchased.)

I think Archon is headed in exciting directions these days, but that still bothers me.

As the CEO mentioned, please feel free to contact me and we should be able to sort something out

@ced1106 I will say that there are various issues when creating a wargame that can use any miniature, mainly the fact that you're going to be making a lot less from the miniatures you personally release. Even creating generic miniatures that people would use for other systems doesn't help, as people would rather just purchase GW miniatures or keep the ones that they already have. Generally speaking, we absolutely do not want to compete with GW in any capacity, even if we are occupying the same space. This is also why Para Bellum's Conquest has a much larger scale and doesn't use as many generic miniatures.

I will be entirely upfront about how this is about the money because creating even 1 tool is already a pretty big investment (even if our process is incredibly efficient) as that tool is also just something that we could have created for a different company instead and potentially earned more that way.

Personally, I do think that a middle ground is possible - a way to create generic miniatures and still encourage people to actually purchase the miniatures, and that would be by adding paper elements into the game and making them available through miniature sets. The reality is that we're not like Osprey and we don't publish our own books, so it also wouldn't be our primary source of income.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Archon Studio wrote:
The central issue we're pondering is whether it makes sense to proceed with two mass miniature wargames set in IP settings, or if we should focus our efforts on a single one while revisiting the Starcide/Chromoshards project.

I would not try to push them into two big alternative products at the same time.

I agree. Two mass battles lines are definitely too much for the start. Once you are established on that front in few years you can always revisit the idea.

Okay, I've sent Szymon a message.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding scale, I'm most interested in 28 to 32mm, and regarding genre, I prefer sci-fi. I generally only dip into fantasy when it can be easily ported into sci-fi. (Using demons and monsters as aliens, etc.)

But I won't pretend to know how to make money in this business. Perhaps if you revisit Starcide, you should start smaller and begin with a skirmish game that you could expand into a full war game if it does well enough. Personally, my favorite Starcide models were the snake men.

As far as established properties go, Starcraft is the only unclaimed one I can think of that would be strong enough to establish a mass battles following.

What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting. Project Moon has one of my favourite universes, it's Cyberpunk + SCP with a bit of fantasy sprinkled in. Across their 3 games, they've massively developed their world, although it's a shame their games are somewhat inaccessible. I think a skirmish game based on Library of Ruina's combat mechanics would be amazing, although it might be next to impossible to port it over to the tabletop. Beating 4 dice in a row with one counter die brings a high I don't think I've ever gotten from any other turn based battler.

Szymon_Archon wrote:
What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting. Project Moon has one of my favourite universes, it's Cyberpunk + SCP with a bit of fantasy sprinkled in. Across their 3 games, they've massively developed their world, although it's a shame their games are somewhat inaccessible. I think a skirmish game based on Library of Ruina's combat mechanics would be amazing, although it might be next to impossible to port it over to the tabletop. Beating 4 dice in a row with one counter die brings a high I don't think I've ever gotten from any other turn based battler.

Something a bit different from the usual sci-fi crowd… perhaps something to consider would be a collaboration with Kosmos 68, an alternative history Soviet Sci-fi setting with an interestingly different aesthetic for the humans and various aliens.It may be too niche for some but the setting is unusual and the minis could proxy well into other games.

https://kosmos68com.wordpress.com/intro/

You just told a Polish person to make a setting where USSR won, huh.

(looks great tho, I love Stanislaw Lem)

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You just told a Polish person to make a setting where USSR won, huh.

(looks great tho, I love Stanislaw Lem)

Stanislaw Lem is one of the reasons why I considered it may be something of interest to the folks of Archon Studio.

From the introduction of the blog…

“This blog and KOSMOS 68 is not endorsing the USSR or the Socialist system that it administered. Nothing you read here should be interpreted as some kind of apologia, or suggestion that maybe that system could have in reality reformed itself and created this future, fulfilling the promises made to raise all humanity to the sunlight upper fields of true Communism.”

https://kosmos68com.wordpress.com/intro/

As I mentioned in my own blog, I am well aware of the realities of the Soviet Union having served in the Berlin Brigade.

https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/2023/10/19/soviets-in-ssspppaaaccceeee/

And I find the setting of a dystopian Soviet Communist future no less and yet no more more horrific than a dystopian American Capitalist one. Just intriguingly different.

Archon Studio wrote:
Jarek

I think you know the risks of two product lines in different genre, there aren't many economies of scale to be had outside of manufacturing.

I think retails are happy for new products, but with controllable SKUs. Too many SKUs is just unsustainable for a lot of stores, especially if they are all needed to some extent.

Against that, is time running out for hobby injection moulding? You return of investment is going to have to be fast enough to cash in pre widespread use of 3D printing. If you can diversify outside of toys using plastic that might work, but otherwise the slow growth approach of companies in the past might not work if the future heralds a likely big change.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
in pre widespread use of 3D printing.

Why would they need to worry about the 3D printing? Anyone interested in hard plastic minis would want hard plastic minis instead resin they dislike (insert here variety of reasons).

 Shadow Walker wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
in pre widespread use of 3D printing.

Why would they need to worry about the 3D printing? Anyone interested in hard plastic minis would want hard plastic minis instead resin they dislike (insert here variety of reasons).

I agree with Shadow Walker. For quite awhile folks have talked about 3d printing changing everything but I do not think the technology can fully replace HIPs any more than cast resin did.

Szymon_Archon wrote:
What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting. Project Moon has one of my favourite universes, it's Cyberpunk + SCP with a bit of fantasy sprinkled in. Across their 3 games, they've massively developed their world, although it's a shame their games are somewhat inaccessible. I think a skirmish game based on Library of Ruina's combat mechanics would be amazing, although it might be next to impossible to port it over to the tabletop. Beating 4 dice in a row with one counter die brings a high I don't think I've ever gotten from any other turn based battler.

I think Shadowrun has a lot of potential, and lets you use minis for the RPG and develop a skirmish game as different gangs/runners compete for objectives. Cyberpunk + D&D!

@Szymon_Archon I am mostly into miniatures and not the gaming part, but overall I prefer large scale/open ended sci-fi settings as that allows a wider variety of cool technology/gear, various kinds of human factions and aliens that are more than just human bodies with a different head.

Stargrave does a nice job in terms of generic miniatures for space settings or small scale land settings, but they lack on the alien department for example and although you could use their miniatures to make an imposing army with the troopers for example, they are still mostly designed for small scale forces and not a full army with standard gear and stuff.

My preference of open ended settings is linked to the fact that I might want to represent a highly populated colony somewhere and do a few types of gangsters, factory workers and stuff (including unarmed people), which wouldn't be that different from many futurist settings we have represented on movies about Earth's dystopian future, but I might also want to represent a distant farming world or a mining world, which would be represented by different gear and in the case of soldiers with different weapons, armour and other stuff to match the environment.

These kinds of different sub settings within a larger setting can be used for adding a large number of interesting military forces, vehicles and civilians and in terms of miniature development you could focus on a small subset at a time, based on what themes would be preferred by customers.

30% off D&L from the Archon store for Halloween and Deuslair PM closes 31st October

https://shop.archon-studio.com/

Szymon_Archon wrote:
What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting.

I respect your preference, but Cyberpunk doesn't interest me that much. A sci-fi book without aliens is fine, but when it comes to miniatures, I'm not really into settings that consist exclusively of various human factions. I've got a strong preference for alien races, and I pretty much agree with Green Scorpion's take: I prefer aliens that are more than just humanoids with different heads. Basically I'm thinking Wayne Barlowe aliens, with physiognomies that are different because the creator thought carefully about the different environmental conditions they would have developed in and how their anatomies would have adapted and evolved.

The bottom line, though, is the rule of cool. If there's a miniature game with non-humanoid aliens but the alien designs just aren't that inspired, I won't be buying it. The designs have to be excellent and part of a captivating world that's developed enough to intrigue, but not so developed that it stifles players from shaping their own stories.

Perhaps I prefer my sci-fi with a bit of horror, too. It's ancient history now, and it wasn't particularly successful, but I thought the Strain concept and designs for Sedition Wars were fantastic. Likewise, years ago I was captivated by the Dead Space and Dead Space 2 video games, from the creature designs to the faux Scientology lore of the creepy Unitologists. That was some fantastic world-building.

I'll also give a shout out to the sci-fi setup of Maelstrom's Edge: it doesn't feel like they've been able to fully capitalize on it for whatever reason, but ME has the closest analogy I can think of to global warming in gaming sci-fi. Every year the idea of billions of desperate people trying to flee doomed planets, and all the conflicts that generates, gets more and more relevant to the way climate change is upending our world and turning more and more people into climate refugees.

One day I'll have to bite the bullet of the shipping to Japan, and buy myself one of the xenodragons.

M.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Against that, is time running out for hobby injection moulding? You return of investment is going to have to be fast enough to cash in pre widespread use of 3D printing. If you can diversify outside of toys using plastic that might work, but otherwise the slow growth approach of companies in the past might not work if the future heralds a likely big change.

When someone comes up with a 3D printer that costs the same as an inkjet printer and works in HIPS with resin-printer quality, the days of injection moulded plastic will be numbered... But that printer doesn't exist yet, and is not even possible with the currently available technology.

 insaniak wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Against that, is time running out for hobby injection moulding? You return of investment is going to have to be fast enough to cash in pre widespread use of 3D printing. If you can diversify outside of toys using plastic that might work, but otherwise the slow growth approach of companies in the past might not work if the future heralds a likely big change.

When someone comes up with a 3D printer that costs the same as an inkjet printer and works in HIPS with resin-printer quality, the days of injection moulded plastic will be numbered... But that printer doesn't exist yet, and is not even possible with the currently available technology.

And not also be a toxic mess like resin that I'm really surprised doesn't have some regulation over disposal because you're not supposed to throw anything not cured away as it can leak into ground water when in a dump. The current stuff is no where near safe enough for a lot of people to have in their homes.