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 Asherian Command wrote:

ccs wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Death was really the only alliance that needed reasons to fight each other.

What, beyond it's game night at the FLGS/club or tourney time? That's always seemed to suffice.

Beyond that? Just because both parties are physically dead doesn't mean their rivalry & scheming is....

The only faction that could was the vampires who didn't exist cause they weren't free of nagash's control reminder. None of them could really fight one another, because of nagash's overwhelming control, because of what happen in BR, they are now free of his influence and may do whatever they want. They might have been able to before, but now its like there is no one holding the leash and its a scramble to get the most power.

Maybe Nagash pits them against each other for funsies....

My point is that GWs fluff, indeed any game companies fluff, stops mattering come game night/tourney time & is trumped by the players fluff.

Yes--it was never difficult to come up with justification for Death v Death, but the fluff did not provide ready-made reasoning or narrative tools to support it. There was not background support for that sort of conflict compared to what they other alliances had.

Article today on Wight Kings.

In a change of background, they’re now seemingly entirely sentient, and have to be bargained with rather than Necromantically controlled.

That’s definitely leaning more into Death being portrayed as less unified without Nagash’s direct influence.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/04/15/wight-kings-more-than-just-fancy-bat-hats/

One thing I’m thinking though...how corporeal does Nagash need to be in the Shyish Nadir? With that much necromantic magic flowing, I suspect he’ll be down for less time than before, especially as it was apparently just his body smashed to bits (though we can’t rule out some damage to his spirit?)

Wight Kings always had an element of sentience to them, for what it's worth. That's part of what made Krell so dangerous.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One does wonder what impact Nagash’s lack of corporeal presence might have upon his realm, too.

I just had this image of the Bonereapers turning in to the Death version of the Fyreslayers. They go around collecting just the right bones in order to rebuild Nagash's body.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yes--it was never difficult to come up with justification for Death v Death, but the fluff did not provide ready-made reasoning or narrative tools to support it. There was not background support for that sort of conflict compared to what they other alliances had.

It absoultely did - in the army books and in the novels.

Article today on Wight Kings.

In a change of background, they’re now seemingly entirely sentient, and have to be bargained with rather than Necromantically controlled.

Been that way from day 1 - Wight Kings and Queens were often independant Allies of the Mortarchs or other Death lords.

https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cortek
https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Yaros
https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cold-Iron_King
https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Realmreaver_Lord

News to me, but that doesn’t mean I was right

ccs wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

ccs wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Death was really the only alliance that needed reasons to fight each other.

What, beyond it's game night at the FLGS/club or tourney time? That's always seemed to suffice.

Beyond that? Just because both parties are physically dead doesn't mean their rivalry & scheming is....

The only faction that could was the vampires who didn't exist cause they weren't free of nagash's control reminder. None of them could really fight one another, because of nagash's overwhelming control, because of what happen in BR, they are now free of his influence and may do whatever they want. They might have been able to before, but now its like there is no one holding the leash and its a scramble to get the most power.

Maybe Nagash pits them against each other for funsies....

My point is that GWs fluff, indeed any game companies fluff, stops mattering come game night/tourney time & is trumped by the players fluff.

Okay? I mean my whole point is that lore wise it didn't make sense, but you can obviously do whatever you want in the hobby / tabletop. But lorewise it didn't make much sense especially with the necro quake going on.

Also I've noticed a ton of people have missed the conversations with Allarielle and Teclis.

 Asherian Command wrote:
[Okay? I mean my whole point is that lore wise it didn't make sense, but you can obviously do whatever you want in the hobby / tabletop. But lorewise it didn't make much sense especially with the necro quake going on.

GW is literally giving us a multi-issue, during the Necroquake, pre-Nagash scattering Death on Death campaign in White Dwarf as we speak. OBR just declaring war on Flesh-Eaters for raw materials.

Please, tell us again how it makes no sense lore-wise when we're receiving multiple articles of lore describing exactly how and why it happens in universe.

 Asherian Command wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

ccs wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Death was really the only alliance that needed reasons to fight each other.

What, beyond it's game night at the FLGS/club or tourney time? That's always seemed to suffice.

Beyond that? Just because both parties are physically dead doesn't mean their rivalry & scheming is....

The only faction that could was the vampires who didn't exist cause they weren't free of nagash's control reminder. None of them could really fight one another, because of nagash's overwhelming control, because of what happen in BR, they are now free of his influence and may do whatever they want. They might have been able to before, but now its like there is no one holding the leash and its a scramble to get the most power.

Maybe Nagash pits them against each other for funsies....

My point is that GWs fluff, indeed any game companies fluff, stops mattering come game night/tourney time & is trumped by the players fluff.

Okay? I mean my whole point is that lore wise it didn't make sense, but you can obviously do whatever you want in the hobby / tabletop. But lorewise it didn't make much sense especially with the necro quake going on.

Also I've noticed a ton of people have missed the conversations with Allarielle and Teclis.

What did they say - ?

What did they say - ?

A few interesting things :

1. Tyrion is fighting an enemy worse than Nagash.

2. Allarlielle considers herself the Elf God, and basically has blessed Teclis's Staff which is basically what saved his life during the duel with nagash.

3. Ally basically tells Teclis he is wasting his time with Nagash, and that it is not the right time to deal with him, as she is still very bitter her daughter was murdered to resummon him.

4. Ally is playing with extreme powers that she is warned by Teclis About.

5. Tyrion created Teclis, he sacrifice his sight to 'reborn' his brother. Tyrion arrived way before Teclis did, and in this quip we learn quite a bit about Tyrion:

It was too much, even for him. Though he ventured miles further than any mortal could have done and uncovered many revelations about the nature of mind, body, and spirit, he stared at the raw light of Hysh for so long that his eyes melted within his skull. Yet in doing so, he piqued the curiosity of the Realm's Edge itself - the elemental spirit of brilliant light that occupied the Perimeter Inimical and shone as the blazing sun across all the realms. It appeared to Tyrion in all its blinding splendour, but as the Lord of Lumination had already lost his eyes, he did not look away. There, aelf and spirit found common cause. Tyrion remembers nothing of the encounter, but he awoke once more at the realm's heart. There, lying next to him, was the recumbent body of his brother Teclis - still weak of limb as he had been since birth but with a lambent glow pouring out of him. The two had become twin halves of the same godly power, which instead of being divided or lessened, became reflected and magnified.

"The seed of the indomitable Alumnian spirit can be found in the legend of Tyrion, god of light and first of all aelvenkind to explore the Ten Paradises. In his lonely explorations of Hysh, Tyrion strove to reach the Perimeter Inimcal, passing across the Luminaris Sea to walk the fractal landscapes of Haixiah. He did so seeking not only his people from the world-that-was, but also seeking knowledge itself. Even when the landscape turned to abstraction and dissolution he strove ever on, in doing so winning the repect of the entity that was Hysh's solar limit - though it cost him his eyes, for so intense were the energies of the Perimeter Inimical they could steal the sight from even a god."

Page 104 Broken Realms Teclis

Which sounds like this light spirit to me it might be even more powerful than Celenar. As most of the first Lumineth book talked about Teclis over Tyrion, it is interesting the vanari side mentions tyrion far more which makes sense. As it seems that he is the more wiser of the two, and very different compared to his Warhammer Fantasy Version. It has been my long belief that Tyrion was the creator of the Lumineth and Teclis merely the Adoptive God of the Lumineth.

I think this confusion has lead to many to assume Teclis is the god of the lumineth / light or creator of the Lumineth because he was mentioned more often. Yet it is specifically mentioned Tyrion is the God of Light and Teclis the Mage God.

Tyrion is the creator of the Lumineth, it is even mentioned several times in various sources, that Tyrion shared the lumineth with Teclis. Teclis might've had a hand in the reinvention of the Lumineth, but he did not cast the first stone in their creation, as the Alumnia's story point to that it was Tyrion who went there first and created the Lumineth with Teclis.

Teclis might be the figurehead currently but it was Tyrion who set everything into motion and was around before Teclis was even a thing in mortal realms.

Then my favorite bit is how Allarile is literally going into war mode and took on 5 zombie dragons by herself.

Please, tell us again how it makes no sense lore-wise when we're receiving multiple articles of lore describing exactly how and why it happens in univer

Because not all races under Nagash are the Flesh Eater courts?

Like Ossiarchs probably weren't fighting the forces of Mannfred or Nefereta or Olyinder? Like I mean? There is no way that really happened at all?

 Asherian Command wrote:

Please, tell us again how it makes no sense lore-wise when we're receiving multiple articles of lore describing exactly how and why it happens in univer

Because not all races under Nagash are the Flesh Eater courts?

Like Ossiarchs probably weren't fighting the forces of Mannfred or Nefereta or Olyinder? Like I mean? There is no way that really happened at all?

Oh it's happened. GW just hasn't told you about it yet. Stay tuned & keep $50 handy.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yes--it was never difficult to come up with justification for Death v Death, but the fluff did not provide ready-made reasoning or narrative tools to support it. There was not background support for that sort of conflict compared to what they other alliances had.

It absoultely did - in the army books and in the novels.

If you aren't sure if you understand what someone is saying it is perfectly respectable to ask for clarification.

Has Age of Sigmar's lore ever given us any reason to be impressed when someone punks Nagash? When you read that Teclis shattered Nagash's body and banished him for an indefinite amount of time, were you wowed by Teclis' great feat? Or did you say "Oh looks like Nagash is getting gak on again" and immediately tune out?

Sure, it's only happened twice. Once in a direct confrontation with Archaon (which went about as well as could be expected) and now against Teclis on his home turf. People forget Nagash has been dominating during this period, even making Chaos panic initially.

A few interesting things :

1. Tyrion is fighting an enemy worse than Nagash.

2. Allarlielle considers herself the Elf God, and basically has blessed Teclis's Staff which is basically what saved his life during the duel with nagash.

3. Ally basically tells Teclis he is wasting his time with Nagash, and that it is not the right time to deal with him, as she is still very bitter her daughter was murdered to resummon him.

4. Ally is playing with extreme powers that she is warned by Teclis About.

5. Tyrion created Teclis, he sacrifice his sight to 'reborn' his brother. Tyrion arrived way before Teclis did, and in this quip we learn quite a bit about Tyrion:

Thanks - and cool - I had wondered before if "Ally" recalled that Teclis had caused her daughter to kidnapped, tortured for months and then sacrificed according to Teclis's plan.

I also would really love to read some more stories in the Age of Myth and how the Pantheon interacted with each other - Nagash and anyone, Neferata and Morathi, Alarielle with her ex's and the Teclis responsible for what happened to her daughter and Mannfred for what he did to her!

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Sure, it's only happened twice. Once in a direct confrontation with Archaon (which went about as well as could be expected) and now against Teclis on his home turf. People forget Nagash has been dominating during this period, even making Chaos panic initially.

Indeed. He’s also the only God we know can’t really die, such is his power level.

What toll this most recent kicking will take remains to be seen. If he’s been diminished, there aren’t exactly many other gods of death to be consumed.

It could be we see him adopt more of an Avatar of Khaine approach in future, using a series of puppets empowered by his will, rather than risking his own neck.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Sure, it's only happened twice. Once in a direct confrontation with Archaon (which went about as well as could be expected) and now against Teclis on his home turf. People forget Nagash has been dominating during this period, even making Chaos panic initially.

Indeed. He’s also the only God we know can’t really die, such is his power level.

What toll this most recent kicking will take remains to be seen. If he’s been diminished, there aren’t exactly many other gods of death to be consumed.

It could be we see him adopt more of an Avatar of Khaine approach in future, using a series of puppets empowered by his will, rather than risking his own neck.

There is no real reason why he can not be destroyed - he is an ascened mortal the same as the others and is "A" god of death, the most powerful one who has devoured many others but not the only one and should all the others be released he could, I think, theoretically be replaced as others have ruled Shyish before.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Tyrion is the creator of the Lumineth, it is even mentioned several times in various sources, that Tyrion shared the lumineth with Teclis. Teclis might've had a hand in the reinvention of the Lumineth, but he did not cast the first stone in their creation, as the Alumnia's story point to that it was Tyrion who went there first and created the Lumineth with Teclis.

Teclis might be the figurehead currently but it was Tyrion who set everything into motion and was around before Teclis was even a thing in mortal realms.

That bit's just...nasty. When you consider it, no wonder Teclis has such a chip on his shoulder.

Morathi successfully remade Elves in -her- image (the Scathborn).
Tyrion successfully remade Elves in his image (the Lumineth).
Allarielle successfully remade Elves in her image (well, partial Elves - Sylvaneth).

Teclis? Failed. The Idoneth are considered incomplete failures. And he's literally the only one of his peers who has tried and failed.

Even more of a chip when you consider that the other 'Gods' and equivalents have done just as well - Sigmar has his Stormcast, Nagash has his Ossiarch and even the Slann have their Seraphon (go go freaky reincarnated memory shenanigans!)

Void__Dragon wrote:Has Age of Sigmar's lore ever given us any reason to be impressed when someone punks Nagash? When you read that Teclis shattered Nagash's body and banished him for an indefinite amount of time, were you wowed by Teclis' great feat? Or did you say "Oh looks like Nagash is getting gak on again" and immediately tune out?

Well, Nagash was always more of a scheming wizard than a battle wizard. He was originally taken down WAAAAAAAY back when by a barbarian with a funny sword given to him by rat people (if I remember right). Admittedly, he was a LITTLE distracted.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:What toll this most recent kicking will take remains to be seen. If he’s been diminished, there aren’t exactly many other gods of death to be consumed.

A better question may be just how diminished he was before all that. The changes that level of power can make to a person is always an interesting avenue to pursue in a literary capacity.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It could be we see him adopt more of an Avatar of Khaine approach in future, using a series of puppets empowered by his will, rather than risking his own neck.

Not a bad idea, actually. Definitely fits the more scheming wizard style that he was than being the hyper-battle wizard that he tried to be.

Reminds me of a character called Lord Nemesis of City of Heroes. He made a lot of clones to handle a lot of schemes so if they died while doing it, he was still around.

Well, Nagash was always more of a scheming wizard than a battle wizard. He was originally taken down WAAAAAAAY back when by a barbarian with a funny sword given to him by rat people (if I remember right). Admittedly, he was a LITTLE distracted.

Mostly true

Alcadizaar defeated his armies but his nation was destroyed and he was captured - the Skaven released him, gave him the Fellblade and pointed him in the direction of Nagash - the Council of Thirteen driectly protecting him from malign magic (several died) until he had hacked the Great Necromancer to bits and chucked him in the Warp Furnace.

Sigmar defeated him in battle as well with the help of his rather fine Dwarf Hammer

Both times it took him centuries to return. 1666 years after the Sigmar incident

He was defeated and imprisoned sometime in the Age of Myth and had to be saved by Sigmar. Archaon shreded him body and soul and through much of the Age of Chaos he was trying to recover.

I read somewhere that, possibly exaggerated, there was this "believe you can hurt the Nighthaunt and Ethereal doesn't work" sort of 80s cartoon "power of love and friendship triumphs over evil" bs in BR:Teclis in regards to Nagash and co, is that true? Like did they really boil all of Death to some carebear stare gak and wipe out Nagash and his army?

I'm just happy to have CoS heroes. Looked like some cared to throw a bone.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Tyrion is the creator of the Lumineth, it is even mentioned several times in various sources, that Tyrion shared the lumineth with Teclis. Teclis might've had a hand in the reinvention of the Lumineth, but he did not cast the first stone in their creation, as the Alumnia's story point to that it was Tyrion who went there first and created the Lumineth with Teclis.

Teclis might be the figurehead currently but it was Tyrion who set everything into motion and was around before Teclis was even a thing in mortal realms.

That bit's just...nasty. When you consider it, no wonder Teclis has such a chip on his shoulder.

Morathi successfully remade Elves in -her- image (the Scathborn).
Tyrion successfully remade Elves in his image (the Lumineth).
Allarielle successfully remade Elves in her image (well, partial Elves - Sylvaneth).

Teclis? Failed. The Idoneth are considered incomplete failures. And he's literally the only one of his peers who has tried and failed.

Even more of a chip when you consider that the other 'Gods' and equivalents have done just as well - Sigmar has his Stormcast, Nagash has his Ossiarch and even the Slann have their Seraphon (go go freaky reincarnated memory shenanigans!)

I don't recall anything in the fluff that ever suggested Tyrion was the sole creator of the Lumineth. The battletome certainly names it as a joint effort. Without any evidence this theory doesn't come across as valid; maybe Asherian can provide some sources. I haven't gone through all the fluff from the RPG myself, maybe it's there.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Tyrion is the creator of the Lumineth, it is even mentioned several times in various sources, that Tyrion shared the lumineth with Teclis. Teclis might've had a hand in the reinvention of the Lumineth, but he did not cast the first stone in their creation, as the Alumnia's story point to that it was Tyrion who went there first and created the Lumineth with Teclis.

Teclis might be the figurehead currently but it was Tyrion who set everything into motion and was around before Teclis was even a thing in mortal realms.

That bit's just...nasty. When you consider it, no wonder Teclis has such a chip on his shoulder.

Morathi successfully remade Elves in -her- image (the Scathborn).
Tyrion successfully remade Elves in his image (the Lumineth).
Allarielle successfully remade Elves in her image (well, partial Elves - Sylvaneth).

Teclis? Failed. The Idoneth are considered incomplete failures. And he's literally the only one of his peers who has tried and failed.

Even more of a chip when you consider that the other 'Gods' and equivalents have done just as well - Sigmar has his Stormcast, Nagash has his Ossiarch and even the Slann have their Seraphon (go go freaky reincarnated memory shenanigans!)

I don't recall anything in the fluff that ever suggested Tyrion was the sole creator of the Lumineth. The battletome certainly names it as a joint effort. Without any evidence this theory doesn't come across as valid; maybe Asherian can provide some sources. I haven't gone through all the fluff from the RPG myself, maybe it's there.

They both created the Lumineth, as it is mentioned in the battletome, but it wasn't originally Teclis's that was the Idoneth.

As Teclis comes from Tyrion. the newish lore essentially states that Teclis was born from Tyrion, and Tyrion was the first god of light.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:
I read somewhere that, possibly exaggerated, there was this "believe you can hurt the Nighthaunt and Ethereal doesn't work" sort of 80s cartoon "power of love and friendship triumphs over evil" bs in BR:Teclis in regards to Nagash and co, is that true? Like did they really boil all of Death to some carebear stare gak and wipe out Nagash and his army?

No, its quite literally the stronger your faith the more likely you can hurt one. That is a misquote and a horrible one at that. Someone who clearly just heard the lore and didn't actually read it. When in most cases it also matters who is holding the weapon as we see in the The STorm Gheists bit.

"-those who felt the icy tendrils of fear constrict around their hearts were swiftly slain, for their speartips and swords passed straight through the tortured spirits. Those who steeled themselves who found courage in invoking sigmar- or teclis come to that - struck true and watched the spirits dissipate into nothingness."

It isn't love and friendship, it's conviction. Nighthaunt attack you both physically and mentally; you have to strike back the same.

The big thing that Teclis did was he burned away the books that let Nagash control Shyish the way that he did. Even if Nagash returns, he might not have those same tomes, and therefore may not ever regain control over some of the Death factions that really don't want to serve him.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Sure, it's only happened twice. Once in a direct confrontation with Archaon (which went about as well as could be expected) and now against Teclis on his home turf. People forget Nagash has been dominating during this period, even making Chaos panic initially.

Why did his fight with Archaon go "about as well as could be expected"?

Furthermore, what god-tier (in a fairly literal sense) character has Nagash defeated? Would you disagree that per Age of Sigmar's lore Nagash seems among the weakest gods?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

Well, Nagash was always more of a scheming wizard than a battle wizard. He was originally taken down WAAAAAAAY back when by a barbarian with a funny sword given to him by rat people (if I remember right). Admittedly, he was a LITTLE distracted.

A fight Sigmar won with help and interference IIRC. Sigmar also being arguably the mightiest (in physical terms anyway) mortal to ever live, correct?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Well, Nagash was always more of a scheming wizard than a battle wizard. He was originally taken down WAAAAAAAY back when by a barbarian with a funny sword given to him by rat people (if I remember right). Admittedly, he was a LITTLE distracted.

A fight Sigmar won with help and interference IIRC. Sigmar also being arguably the mightiest (in physical terms anyway) mortal to ever live, correct?

Sigmar came later and used a hammer.

Mr Morden above, had it correct. Nagash was first taken down by Alcadizaar using a sword given to him by Skaven while Nagash was doing the Ritual that turned the land of the Tomb Kings in to the land of death that was known in the days of Sigmar and the End Times.

The description used when I first heard it described Alcadizaar as a barbarian. To be fair, though, he had been in prison for a while up to this time.

Well, the new NH stuff in Belakor isn't the best.