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 Dendarien wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).

You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.

It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.

True...but at that point 6+ was their only trait. +1 to wound on the charge for a bunch of melee units is fairly good, albeit they definitely did just make Snakebites into the 'so ya want to spam the new squiggy units, eh?' kultur by doing so.

Goffs is still 100% going to be the default clan as it is right now. It seems to be by far the best one - maybe you might go for evil sunz if there are good shooting units and if dakka does indeed also count as assault. but +1S on the charge and 6s to hit = two hits, army-wide on a good melee army vs garbage like "+6" range on heavy and dakka weapons, 6s to wound in shooting are -1AP!"

you'd probably get more benefit out of making a pure shooty ork army Goffs and getting buffs on your incidental melee attacks than making your shooty ork army Bad Moonz, lol.


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and I can't believe they were just too lazy to put freebootas in the codex. Pure "Eh......I dunno....I'm out of ideas......"

Maybe theyll be the orks day 1 dlc...lol.

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

Except the T5 robs the subS8 rule of a lot of its value, e.g. against S5

Is T5 not good enough without taking a weird trait that is of questionable value for most units, including the squig riders that are T6 and get the most benefit out of the second half of the trait.

It's still a weird trait.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).

You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.

It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.

True...but at that point 6+ was their only trait. +1 to wound on the charge for a bunch of melee units is fairly good, albeit they definitely did just make Snakebites into the 'so ya want to spam the new squiggy units, eh?' kultur by doing so.

Goffs is still 100% going to be the default clan as it is right now. It seems to be by far the best one - maybe you might go for evil sunz if there are good shooting units and if dakka does indeed also count as assault. but +1S on the charge and 6s to hit = two hits, army-wide on a good melee army vs garbage like "+6" range on heavy and dakka weapons, 6s to wound in shooting are -1AP!"

you'd probably get more benefit out of making a pure shooty ork army Goffs and getting buffs on your incidental melee attacks than making your shooty ork army Bad Moonz, lol.


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and I can't believe they were just too lazy to put freebootas in the codex. Pure "Eh......I dunno....I'm out of ideas......"

Maybe theyll be the orks day 1 dlc...lol.

I too will miss the FB trait. It died with 9th edition, but it opened up a very different playstyle that was fun while it lasted.

Hard agree Goffs looks like the klan to build around unless there are hidden buffs. I feel pretty demoralized at this point that there are massive hidden gems we have not seen. It is just far easier to believe GW wrote a bad book, especially with the memory of the 7th ed ork codex haunting me.

Here's to Gork (or possibly Mork) I'm wrong.

 Dendarien wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).

You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.

It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.

So you prefer a T4 6+++ over T5 that takes all S4 or less 5's to wound, and S5-7 4's to wound? Damn, you must make a lot of 6+++ saves.


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 TedNugent wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

Except the T5 robs the subS8 rule of a lot of its value, e.g. against S5

Is T5 not good enough without taking a weird trait that is of questionable value for most units, including the squig riders that are T6 and get the most benefit out of the second half of the trait.

It's still a weird trait.

you can't move the goalposts. If S6 is just not common at all, how come S5 is?

Well, the S6 and the S7 is a bit wasted on infantry because those would be gunning against vehicles.
So once again the Snakebites get tanky vehicles compared to the other Kultures. At least you get squig based units this time.

This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.

You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.

But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..

 bullyboy wrote:
This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.

You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.

But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..

Isn't there a S5 weapon that has like 20 shots? I think that's what people might be thinking of.
I mean, you're not wrong and it does have value, I just get why they aren't too impressed.
It is indeed better than 6++ though.

 bullyboy wrote:


you can't move the goalposts. If S6 is just not common at all, how come S5 is?

It's not even that so much, it's efficiency. Those high S shots might have been considered against moderately tough T5 and T6 infantry/cav.

With this rule it doesn't really impact the most efficient weapons, which will be S3 or S5 against T6 and S4/5/6 against T6.

It just doesn't provide as consistent of a benefit when you already hit the sweet spot on toughness, e.g. T5, as....dare I say....a 6+ FNP. Compare a 16.7% damage reduction across the board flat versus it being dependent on being hit by certain weapons whether you see any benefit at all. You would get that 16.7% chance save against everything, instead of just reducing your chance to be wounded by certain weapons.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.

You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.

But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..

Isn't there a S5 weapon that has like 20 shots? I think that's what people might be thinking of.
I mean, you're not wrong and it does have value, I just get why they aren't too impressed.
It is indeed better than 6++ though.

That's the LR Punisher cannon I think you're referring to, but IG aren't exactly the most competitive atm, and even their marginal successes have mainly been a few manticores in the backfield for LoS blocking protection while drowning people in waves of bodies.

 bullyboy wrote:
This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.

You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.

But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..

It is a nerf...compared to the previous rule they had.

it sucks...compared to the other clan trait that is available (Goffs)

Orks overall may very well be in a better spot than previous. My money is honestly on 'about the same but generally healthier, with more average-to-decent options and fewer auto-includes' which is just about where you want to hit with a new book.

Unlike a skitarii trooper, an ork boy is looking to be a solid, good troop choice that does not provide absurd value but does provide solid, appreciable enough value that you won't just be bringing the min quantity to unlock detachments. Locked as they now seem to be at 3A (recall, previously, they were 5A with Ghazghkull and 20+ in the mob) but gaining T5 they are vastly more of a brick unit than the weird pseudo-glass cannon they are right now, which is good because with the loss of UGT and mooooooost likely the loss of da jump as an auto-take they will need to be crossing the board weathering fire.

I just pray that there's not some '1cp, on a 6 to hit with ork boyz deal a MW, capped at 27MW LOLOLOLOLOL" stratagem to ruin it all at the last second

I think what I'm seeing that others may not (whether right or wrong), is that S6 was leaning to become the perfect anti-hoard weapon. It exists on many platforms with high ROF and low AP (perfect for hordes), it has the dual benefit of wounding T3 on 2s (large blobs of sisters etc) while also wounding new Orks on 3s. Snakebites just throw that a little out the window.
Sure it's not the best thing eva!!, but it has some inherent durability that immediately counters S6 weapons.

As with prior books, I guess we won't know until the armies hit the table.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).

You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.

It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.

So you prefer a T4 6+++ over T5 that takes all S4 or less 5's to wound, and S5-7 4's to wound? Damn, you must make a lot of 6+++ saves.

Sigh. That isn't the comparison.
All orks now have T5 regardless of clan. The objection is specifically the corner case of S6 & 7 weapons only compared to the already limited utility of 6+++. Discounting 3s to wound on weapons that would only wound on 3+ anyway (S6 or S7 vs T5) is a 1/6 chance, similar to a 6+++ (with some fiddly math for multi-wound models and etc). Its just now baked into the wound roll and only matters with a much, much smaller subset of attacks rather than ALL attacks. That's worse, no matter how you want to slice it.

Instead you can take a different clan and have rules that might actually matter. They've 'improved' snakebites by adding conditional toughness to the universal toughness boost that ALL the clans get by virtue of being orks in the new book.

The new Snakebite rules are a conditional thing that may not matter and a punchier squig rider detachment, if you're going to take squigs anyway.

What we don't know yet is, if subkultures are somehow integrated. WarCom only mentioned beast Snaggas as a subkulture, but not if these are tied to another set of rules. It is possible that the subkultures from the PA book make it into the Codex, but this time don't replace the Klan. Considering the number of rules other factions have it is a possibility, especially since we don't know what our army bonus(doctrine equivalent) will be - or is it just the Waaagh ability? Would be a little sad since it only lasts two turns and is tied to a specific HQ, so even more limited than Necron rules.

So, maybe those Klan rules don't sound that hot because those, say, Snakebites can be combined with Feral Orks bonus, or Grot Mobs or whatever as well.

It's a question of whether or not the clan trait has value in relation to the new codex. I'm dubious.

But most of them seem to be in a bad spot now though based on the leaks. Death Skulls, Evil Suns, Bad Moons.

Death Skulls and Evil Suns in particular were just flat out nerfed if those leaks hold, and they've been accurate about everything this far.

I'm thinking Goffs will be fotm, but they have less value with snagga boys compared to regular boys since the rumor is they get +1s on charge. So the question to me is why go that route.

Its roughly beginning to me to look like all in on snagga gits versus a Goff horde, granted it's a sketchy picture so far viewed through a kaleidoscope.

I don't like that the snakebites secondary only affects squigs.

 bullyboy wrote:
This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.

You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.

But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..

Its tiny buff vs tiny subpart of weapons(s6-7). Nerf vs s3-s5 and s8+.



All bolters, lasguns,poison weapons, shuriken catapults, missile launcheirs etc gain

Rumored leak of the white squiglord

3+/4++
9w s6/t7 6A L8

Reduce damage by 1
+1 to hit aura for snaggas
3 attacks with squig at S7 ap3 d3
Unmodified 6 gives 4 MW

 TedNugent wrote:
Rumored leak of the white squiglord

3+/4++
9w s6/t7 6A L8

Reduce damage by 1
+1 to hit aura for snaggas
3 attacks with squig at S7 ap3 d3
Unmodified 6 gives 4 MW

Thanks for posting this one. Note the Discord rumor is unmodified wound rolls of 6s generate the mortals.

These rumors are brutally depressing. I don't want to go more editions with Orks being garbage outside of running a gak ton of expensive mek guns.

My Deathskullz are now gutted. KFF nerfed (on an army that hardly has any invuls...outside of the now nerfed DS)

Just ugly all around....sad. Really hope these rumors aren't true or there is just a lot we aren't seeing here.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Nauts are LoW? Yay...

It's the monolith situation all over again

I'm not too worried about it costing an extra CP or detachment, but losing clan cultures really hurts a lot.

Might actually oddly make Stompas viable by letting them fill out a SHD. Assuming you don't spend all the points doing it...

...nah.

Hopefully they throw nauts a bone in response.


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 Mr. Grey wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Man, this isn't looking great for the green lads so far. Just hoping all the stuff we've seen is offset by some other stuff improving.

The only thing I really wanted from the new Codex was something similar to what Dark Eldar get to allow Clan-mixing in the same Detachment. Single Clan warbands are lame.

Seems like a lot of these changes are just... change for the sake of change? And not necessarily for the better, but it's like someone at GW looked at the 8e codex and made the executive decision that the 9th edition one needs NEW THINGS. So far I'm not impressed by what I'm hearing. Morkanauts as Lords of War? KFF moving to 6+? ugh.

KFF lost wholly within so 6++ makes sense. Clan changes are in line with what 9th's direction.

People seem to think DE and AdMech are the rule rather than the exception.

Lootas at 3/2 is decent. They're 48" ( 54" Badmoons ) so now they're dropping far more shots than they were before when you had to spend CP to make it work. I'd wager that 'More DDD' is +1 shot.

EldarExarch wrote:
These rumors are brutally depressing. I don't want to go more editions with Orks being garbage outside of running a gak ton of expensive mek guns.

My Deathskullz are now gutted. KFF nerfed (on an army that hardly has any invuls...outside of the now nerfed DS)

Just ugly all around....sad. Really hope these rumors aren't true or there is just a lot we aren't seeing here.

First, the rumors are actually two relics with 4++ invulnerable saves, snaggas get 6++ across the board, new named SC with a 4++, a warlord trait with 4++, and, we'll have to see if there is anything else.
One of the rumored 4++ relics are supa cybork body, which....is a hell of a good sign that maybe they finally listened and brought back real cybork bodies. The 6++ on the snagga gits appears to be partially based on their numerous bionic appendages, after all...



If all goes well, we either might not need KFF at all (or death skulls for that matter), or, as the rumor stated, it's going to be a big enough blanket (units within as opposed to wholly within) that we can at least use it to get army wide coverage for a reasonable price.

I'm mostly crossing my fingers on 4th edition style cybork bodies.

That said, there is a lot of garbage in the rumors, like warbosses being capped at 1 per army, no DDD, no mob rule, clan rules nerfed, no breakin' eads, no weirdboy mob bonus, etc. Going to create a ton of new problems on things previously taken for granted. Leadership will now be bad, mobility on footsloggers will be much worse, psychic powers are no longer guaranteed, and seems they want to channel us into close combat something bad.

Conversely, I really hated the idea of having to stay within bubbles in a horde army, it was just bad design all around.

Rumor is DS lose the 6++ anyways.

I would kind of rather orks be strong just because the core stats of their gak is good rather than because of a billion overlapping usrs. The new admech book is a fething nightmare to play, its basically killed my enthusiasm for the army.

The snakebite Kulture is not a nerf. It’s actually comical that so many people think it is. Bring a pain boy/painboss and you get the old kulture for the price of that model. S6-7 are pretty pervasive in the meta (volkites, anti-Raider tech, etc.). There are lots of D2 weapons that blaze right through the old snakebite kulture. And permanent trans human on S7 or less means any S5-7 with +1 to wound or weapons that always wound on a given roll are completely negated, so too is DG -1 toughness. Re-rolls are super prevalent in the game and will convert less often into 4+ on the wound roll than 3’s. This is a hugely powerful kulture. You’re gonna be getting 6++ (from snaggas or a KFF) and 6+++, on a mass of T5 transhuman models. Snakebites have been buffed, and I’ll wager they form the core of competitive ork lists in the coming future.

Tmh wrote:
The snakebite Kulture is not a nerf. It’s actually comical that so many people think it is. Bring a pain boy/painboss and you get the old kulture for the price of that model. S6-7 are pretty pervasive in the meta (volkites, anti-Raider tech, etc.). There are lots of D2 weapons that blaze right through the old snakebite kulture. And permanent trans human on S7 or less means any S5-7 with +1 to wound or weapons that always wound on a given roll are completely negated, so too is DG -1 toughness. Re-rolls are super prevalent in the game and will convert less often into 4+ on the wound roll than 3’s. This is a hugely powerful kulture. You’re gonna be getting 6++ (from snaggas or a KFF) and 6+++, on a mass of T5 transhuman models. Snakebites have been buffed, and I’ll wager they form the core of competitive ork lists in the coming future.

It does nothing against S5-. It does nothing against S8+.

So that leaves S6, S7, and niche other circumstances, such as Death Guard with S5 weapons or S5 weapons with +1 to-wound. It's a decent enough buff when it happens-3+ to 4+ reduces damage by 25%, which is better than the 20% boost you get from a 6+++. And it applies against damages greater than 1, which the 6+++ was basically useless against.

The issue is, it helps against such a small amount of weapons. How many S6 and S7 weapons do you actually see?

What are the existing problems with the current Ork Clan rules?

more importantly it does nothing as far as T6 and S6.

E.g. the squig riders the secondary rule implores you to take

Better yet, the named special character on a squig is literally T7 lol

Any leaks on Tin ‘Eads? Don’t feel like sorting through the whining about xyz.

Voss wrote:

Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.

They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.

Except that you'll see those guns hitting your mobs more than something that is S8.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Tmh wrote:
The snakebite Kulture is not a nerf. It’s actually comical that so many people think it is. Bring a pain boy/painboss and you get the old kulture for the price of that model. S6-7 are pretty pervasive in the meta (volkites, anti-Raider tech, etc.). There are lots of D2 weapons that blaze right through the old snakebite kulture. And permanent trans human on S7 or less means any S5-7 with +1 to wound or weapons that always wound on a given roll are completely negated, so too is DG -1 toughness. Re-rolls are super prevalent in the game and will convert less often into 4+ on the wound roll than 3’s. This is a hugely powerful kulture. You’re gonna be getting 6++ (from snaggas or a KFF) and 6+++, on a mass of T5 transhuman models. Snakebites have been buffed, and I’ll wager they form the core of competitive ork lists in the coming future.

It does nothing against S5-. It does nothing against S8+.

So that leaves S6, S7, and niche other circumstances, such as Death Guard with S5 weapons or S5 weapons with +1 to-wound. It's a decent enough buff when it happens-3+ to 4+ reduces damage by 25%, which is better than the 20% boost you get from a 6+++. And it applies against damages greater than 1, which the 6+++ was basically useless against.

The issue is, it helps against such a small amount of weapons. How many S6 and S7 weapons do you actually see?

Volkites are everywhere in SM and DG, Autocannons in Ad Mech, most meaningful Necron and Aledari anti-infantry are S6-7. Exocrines for Tyranids…S6-7 is the sweet spot for antiinfantry, and snakebites are just straight up -1to wound against them and that cannot be modified. As soon as Boyz and snagga boyz at T5 was previewed, people were discussing the S6-7 anti-infantry options. Because there really isn’t S8 anti-infantry out there, so that doesn’t matter so much. People aren’t gonna be shooting their S8 into 90-120 boyz lol.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.

They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.

Except that you'll see those guns hitting your mobs more than something that is S8.

...sure?
If 'you won't see a lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons fired at 1 wound naked infantry' is your argument for 'snakebites have a fine clan rule', I suggest giving that scenario a little more contemplation.

If its about the squighog riders or boss on squigbeasts who benefit from the other half of the snakebite rule, then, yeah, you actually will see S8 AT thrown at them. Like Chaos Juggers, they're perfectly (in fact, more) vulnerable to big guns, and worthwhile targets to smear off the table before they get close.