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Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.

They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.

Except that you'll see those guns hitting your mobs more than something that is S8.

...sure?
If 'you won't see a lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons fired at 1 wound naked infantry' is your argument for 'snakebites have a fine clan rule', I suggest giving that scenario a little more contemplation.

If its about the squighog riders or boss on squigbeasts who benefit from the other half of the snakebite rule, then, yeah, you actually will see S8 AT thrown at them. Like Chaos Juggers, they're perfectly (in fact, more) vulnerable to big guns, and worthwhile targets to smear off the table before they get close.

That's likely why it is the way it is. It would upset the internal balance of the book pretty heavily.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are the existing problems with the current Ork Clan rules?

Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful.
Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.

The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

Except the T5 robs the subS8 rule of a lot of its value, e.g. against S5

Is T5 not good enough without taking a weird trait that is of questionable value for most units, including the squig riders that are T6 and get the most benefit out of the second half of the trait.

It's still a weird trait.

Curiously I think Snakebites will do fairly well against Death Guard. With their toughness modifying and if I recall a preference for those sub 8 weapons you'll get some more mileage.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.

They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.

Except that you'll see those guns hitting your mobs more than something that is S8.

...sure?
If 'you won't see a lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons fired at 1 wound naked infantry' is your argument for 'snakebites have a fine clan rule', I suggest giving that scenario a little more contemplation.

If its about the squighog riders or boss on squigbeasts who benefit from the other half of the snakebite rule, then, yeah, you actually will see S8 AT thrown at them. Like Chaos Juggers, they're perfectly (in fact, more) vulnerable to big guns, and worthwhile targets to smear off the table before they get close.

That's likely why it is the way it is. It would upset the internal balance of the book pretty heavily.

What are you even arguing? There are very, very few scenarios were tossing AT shots at sub-10 point infantry makes sense. The vast majority of anti-infantry is S4 and S5. S6 and 7 are corner case compared to the sheer range of weapons, and only nixes 1/6 wound rolls for that specific case.

If you mean squighogs, maybe I was unclear- like Juggers, they're just going to vanish from the table. They aren't tough enough to survive 40k weapons fire. Its a unit that fills the same role as an existing unit, and has the same problem achieving anything, because it just isn't tough enough. They've redesigned monstrous cavalry and basically failed again.

Voss wrote:
Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful. Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.

The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.

Thanks for the answer.

I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.

Blood Axes are my fav Orks, so hopefully they won't suck.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Voss wrote:
Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful. Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.

The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.

Thanks for the answer.

I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.

Blood Axes are my fav Orks, so hopefully they won't suck.

Unfortunately, Blood Axes, one of the ones that arguably should have changed the most since they were borderline useless along with Snakebites, hasn't changed at all. They've even kept the asinine 18" outside of enemy counts as being in light cover rule. The other concern is that it seems like Freebootas as a Klan is being removed altogether.

OK, regardless of how the rules pan out, people here clamoring about S6 and S7 weapons being rare are simply off their heads and out of touch with the current game. The list is endless and used extensively.
And if facing the best Ork horde (Goffs apparently?) then the S6 weapons I've been talking about are the absolute best counter because you're not going to hit them with S10 weapons, so the cheapest and best weapon that wounds on 3's instead is the way forward. So what would you do to counter the expected counter for Orks??

we'll see how things go, but at least stop being disingenuous about S6 being "rare".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.

No, they literally just nerfed evil suns per the leak. It's the same as it was, just no more +1 to charge.

 TedNugent wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.

No, they literally just nerfed evil suns per the leak. It's the same as it was, just no more +1 to charge.

And by the looks of things with considerably less assault weaponry in the faction making the other part of it less valuable.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Voss wrote:
Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful. Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.

The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.

Thanks for the answer.

I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.

Blood Axes are my fav Orks, so hopefully they won't suck.

Wouldn't hold out much hope for Blood Axes. Accurate leaks thus far point to no changes to it, and it's already bad. It will also have the added anti-synergy of wanting to get close for dakka gun profiles to be in half range while wanting to stay 18 inches out for the cover bonus.

In short most of the klans do nothing or are made obsolete by other klan rules. If you wanna do shooty MSU that's DS. If you wanna do melee horde it's Goff. Nothing else sees play, not even ES anymore.

As noted above, ES bizarrely do more for infantry than vehicles or bikers and their advance and assault without penalty seems weak in a codex that just lost assault on all these dakka weapons and rokkits. Snakebitez provided the most benefit to vehicles due to the value of 6+ FNP on multiwound models as opposed to infantry. Blood Axes give you no offensive bonus and a minimal amount of defense with a big conditional requirement of being greater than 18 inches away. Bad Moonz were just worse than DS at shooting for about all units or close enough the 6+++ and infantry-wide obsec made DS the better choice. Even Goffs were bad until we got Saga of the Beast and Ghaz to buff them up.

 bullyboy wrote:
So you prefer a T4 6+++ over T5 that takes all S4 or less 5's to wound, and S5-7 4's to wound? Damn, you must make a lot of 6+++ saves.

No need to be a Richard, math shows that 6+++ is superior in every way to the new trait.

In any case, with Enriched rounds, Admech rangers still auto wound with a 4+ to hit, so for them, its not relevant really. You are still going to get upwards of 30 wounds from a ranger blob anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
So you prefer a T4 6+++ over T5 that takes all S4 or less 5's to wound, and S5-7 4's to wound? Damn, you must make a lot of 6+++ saves.

No need to be a Richard, math shows that 6+++ is superior in every way to the new trait.

This reminds me of the people complaining about Death Guard losing their FNP, while conveniently ignoring the change to 2W in any calculations.

Which only further highlights how unrealistic it was for anyone to expect Snakebites to retain a 6+++ when 9E codexes have been almost universally toning down additional armywide saves. This was always going away. At least the replacement is likely more useful than what Graia AdMech were given instead...

 Dendarien wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Voss wrote:
Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful. Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.

The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.

Thanks for the answer.

I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.

Blood Axes are my fav Orks, so hopefully they won't suck.

Wouldn't hold out much hope for Blood Axes. Accurate leaks thus far point to no changes to it, and it's already bad. It will also have the added anti-synergy of wanting to get close for dakka gun profiles to be in half range while wanting to stay 18 inches out for the cover bonus.

Bloodaxes did get better though, while the trait still does little to nothing, at least the stratagem, relic and warlord traits have become rather decent. In addition, there might be some synergy with new kommandoz.

In the current codex bloodaxes is pretty much equivalent with not running a klan because the only thing they have going for them was having an extra warlord trait instead of a relic.

As noted above, ES bizarrely do more for infantry than vehicles or bikers and their advance and assault without penalty seems weak in a codex that just lost assault on all these dakka weapons and rokkits. Snakebitez provided the most benefit to vehicles due to the value of 6+ FNP on multiwound models as opposed to infantry. Blood Axes give you no offensive bonus and a minimal amount of defense with a big conditional requirement of being greater than 18 inches away. Bad Moonz were just worse than DS at shooting for about all units or close enough the 6+++ and infantry-wide obsec made DS the better choice. Even Goffs were bad until we got Saga of the Beast and Ghaz to buff them up.

For all klans you need to keep in mind that their power is defined by the combination of stratagem, relic, warlord trait, psychic power and kulture. Even in its worst interpretation, the red paint seems to be a rather powerful relic, and visions might become a lot better now that the weirdboy relic doesn't suck anymore - and possibly can be cast by the squig sled thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:
Which only further highlights how unrealistic it was for anyone to expect Snakebites to retain a 6+++ when 9E codexes have been almost universally toning down additional armywide saves. This was always going away. At least the replacement is likely more useful than what Graia AdMech were given instead...

Except that's completely different, because orks didn't get +1 wound.

The snakebite transhuman is objectively, without any doubt, worse than 6+++ in every possible way. Even under optimal conditions, for T4 or T5, it is never as good as what they had before. And what they had before was one of the worst traits in the whole codex.

Simply said, every single person claiming that this transhuman is strong, powerful or even anything that could remotely considered to be a buff is without doubt wrong and can be easily laughed at as a fool who is unqualified to talk about game rules.

The 6+++ trait was heavily NERFED to make room for a rather powerful buff to squigs. Anyone who doesn't even understand that can safely be ignored for all further discussion on the ork codex.

 Jidmah wrote:
Except that's completely different, because orks didn't get +1 wound.

The snakebite transhuman is objectively, without any doubt, worse than 6+++ in every possible way. Even under optimal conditions, for T4 or T5, it is never as good as what they had before. And what they had before was one of the worst traits in the whole codex.

Simply said, every single person claiming that this transhuman is strong, powerful or even anything that could remotely considered to be a buff is without doubt wrong and can be easily laughed at as a fool who is unqualified to talk about game rules.

The 6+++ trait was heavily NERFED to make room for a rather powerful buff to squigs. Anyone who doesn't even understand that can safely be ignored for all further discussion on the ork codex.

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a fool to be laughed at"

Classy posting.

Yes, people who disagree with math without providing counter-proof can safely be considered fools. I know that opinion has become unpopular recently, but that's how the world actually works.

Jid's right. The corner case of S6 and S7 weapons being turned 16% is not as good as a 6+ FNP across all cases. It's no contest, arguing proves you don't understand context.

Seems like the defenders are trying to bundle the T increase together with the Snakebit trait, which is obviously not the case. Traits should be compared to other traits. Other Klnz get the T increase too, it's facateous to use it as an argument that Snakebites got buffed.

I mean the general T buff has nerfed indirectly the snakebites trait. In itself it would be a good ability, especially the lower your average T value is.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Seems like the defenders are trying to bundle the T increase together with the Snakebit trait, which is obviously not the case. Traits should be compared to other traits. Other Klnz get the T increase too, it's facateous to use it as an argument that Snakebites got buffed.

Classic example of not understanding context. Snakebites are the most effected by T increase, thus they have received the greatest nerf by losing their 6+ FNP.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Seems like the defenders are trying to bundle the T increase together with the Snakebit trait, which is obviously not the case. Traits should be compared to other traits. Other Klnz get the T increase too, it's facateous to use it as an argument that Snakebites got buffed.

The thing is, even if you do that, T4/6+++ is still strictly better than T5/new trait as S6/S7 weapons don't care about the extra toughness and still kill more boyz now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I mean the general T buff has nerfed indirectly the snakebites trait. In itself it would be a good ability, especially the lower your average T value is.

I think GW wanted to improve snakebite durability against small arms but stumbled across themselves in the middle and came up with a trait that somehow turned out to be even more niche than prevent mortal wounds during the psychic phase.

 hollow one wrote:
Jid's right. The corner case of S6 and S7 weapons being turned 16% is not as good as a 6+ FNP across all cases. It's no contest, arguing proves you don't understand context.

At no point did I disagree about the math.

I said that the argument is moot because GW are pretty consistently removing wide-use FNP saves to speed up gameplay. Orks were never realistically going to keep a faction-wide 6+++ when it was taken away from multiple codexes. Is that such an unreasonable thing to say that I need to be insulted?

 xttz wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
Jid's right. The corner case of S6 and S7 weapons being turned 16% is not as good as a 6+ FNP across all cases. It's no contest, arguing proves you don't understand context.

At no point did I disagree about the math.

I said that the argument is moot because GW are pretty consistently removing wide-use FNP saves to speed up gameplay. Orks were never realistically going to keep a faction-wide 6+++ when it was taken away from multiple codexes. Is that such an unreasonable thing to say that I need to be insulted?

There is no conversation with this comment, it's a reasonable but also purposeless statement. You're saying because you assumed FNP would go away there's no point feeling disappointed or comparing?

 xttz wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
Jid's right. The corner case of S6 and S7 weapons being turned 16% is not as good as a 6+ FNP across all cases. It's no contest, arguing proves you don't understand context.

At no point did I disagree about the math.

I said that the argument is moot because GW are pretty consistently removing wide-use FNP saves to speed up gameplay. Orks were never realistically going to keep a faction-wide 6+++ when it was taken away from multiple codexes. Is that such an unreasonable thing to say that I need to be insulted?

Ah, I accidently cut of part of your comment when trimming down the quote pyramid, this must be why you feel insuled. However, you did say this, which is what I responded to:

 xttz wrote:
This reminds me of the people complaining about Death Guard losing their FNP, while conveniently ignoring the change to 2W in any calculations.

So, you actually did disagree about the math, and even implied that there was some sort of agenda behind misrepresenting it.

Last preview up: vehicles.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/16/keep-on-trukkin-ork-vehicles-are-tougher-and-weirder-than-ever-in-the-new-codex/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
• Ramshackle becomes -1Dmg for <S8, applies to everything but Nauts and Stompa by the look of it.

• Nauts LoW confirmed

• Stompa down to P34/675pts

• Profiles for the stupid new squig cart thing>

So...Snakebites are once again the faction that really wants to use vehicles because of the synergy between Ramshackle and their trait.

Also, I really don't like the Rigs. Maybe it's the paint scheme, but they really do look like a toy from Fisher Price or something.

Well leaks look 100% accurate. He predicted ramshackle as well as LoW nauts and the rig profile.

Without some base profile changes don’t think the stompa is any good at 675.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So...Snakebites are once again the faction that really wants to use vehicles because of the synergy between Ramshackle and their trait.

Also, I really don't like the Rigs. Maybe it's the paint scheme, but they really do look like a toy from Fisher Price or something.

Yeah I feel the same. Rig is way too big relative to the squig.

Yeah, I'm not keen on it either. Fair play to them doing something different I guess but I'm pretty set in my ways in term of what I want from Orks and it ain't that.

Missed opportunity to just do a plastic squiggoth model to be honest.

 Grimskul wrote:
Missed opportunity to just do a plastic squiggoth model to be honest.

I would much rather have a mini squiggoth than that mess, yes.