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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why did Chaos Marines get a weird mix for their infantry box?

I don't know - the chaos space marine box stood out to me as a 'why would you do this?' thing when I built them recently.

why would you:

1) choose to make 10 very slightly different and distinct chest plates, when allowing for swappable chest plates would effectively allow you to make the dynamic poses you wanted to have without having to deal with the old classic waist ball joint looks wonky issues?

2) choose to have the only way a model can legally hold a rocket launcher also have them sticking a knife out at an odd angle, rather than the expected 'holding the rocket launcher ready to fire it' pose that would probably make nearly-identical rocket launcher troopers blend in with each other just fine?

3) go for almost all two-handed ranged weapon poses when deathwatch-style one handed poses would allow for dynamic posing with much easier intra-kit customization?

4) fuse just a COUPLE shoulder pads strategically to random arms for no reason when you had plenty of space for separated shoulder pads?

Just bizarre - especially when you KNOW that this is a basic troop kit and, presumably, you WANT players to be buying multiples to fill out the basic detachment slots in their army. you could take the exact same cad designs and easily, easily recut them to have almost 100% more possible permutations from the same kit, even keeping all the bits the same. just a couple more weapons cut at the wrist, just a couple chest plates tweaked to make them a universal join, just a couple shoulder joints shaved to be perfectly flat - what's the gain here? Why design the kit such that I as a consumer am even a little incentivized to buy it once, and then go third party for all the rest of my CSM?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The more I've been thinking on it the more weird this whole thing is. Necrons got both weapon options in their Warrior boxes. Why would Orks not?

I imagine probably because the "new" Boyz aren't actually meant as a replacement to the regular kit, and just an EtB kit that isn't very good, forcing you to buy more regular Boyz instead of just a lot of the new ones.

It's planned obsolescence. They know that they will have a new book out in a year after this one, so they are holding back a kit to replace the old boyz so they can release that alongside the new book. Why release all the models and hope people buy a new book later with no new models. Terrible thought I know.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Best Case 2:
There's Easy to Build "booster" sprues coming, with 3 Slugga+Choppa Boyz and 6 Shoota Boyz.

The more I've been thinking on it the more weird this whole thing is. Necrons got both weapon options in their Warrior boxes. Why would Orks not?

I don't know what the Necrons are like, but one thing is Orks are physically large, so take up more sprue space and will end up with less options. With the way GW currently make models (favouring aesthetics over fitting lots of options on sprues) we would have been better off if they'd made 2 kits, one for Slugga Boyz and another for Shoota Boyz.

But the current option is just terrible, if you want a unit of Shoota Boyz you need to buy multiples and are left with only 3 sculpts, so a super-clone-man army.

That's why I think there's a possibility we'll get another Boyz kit, this one is even worse than the Snaggas, or the Kommandos, or the Krieg. I know there's whiners who will keep saying this was inevitable, but really this is worse than GW's recent kits by a large margin, so maybe we'll get something a bit more versatile later, I hope at least.

That’s why it seems you’re meant to mix these with the originals so many were worried would be replaced.

The DG Blight-hauler is the only ETB kit currently on sale for 40k, so it's making me wonder if they're planning on bringing back some of the others (like the Redemptor) and reboot that range. Deffkoptas and the Warboss could be ETB too, given the limited datasheet options.

It'll be interesting to see if any of the BT stuff is push-fit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why did Chaos Marines get a weird mix for their infantry box?

Tradition. CSM squads were like that since 2002 or so when they got their first modern kit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The more I've been thinking on it the more weird this whole thing is. Necrons got both weapon options in their Warrior boxes. Why would Orks not?

Both Necron weapons share one of the arms - Orks would require two complete sets of arms per ork; and heaven forbid that GW should ever just include another sprue in the kit...

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why did Chaos Marines get a weird mix for their infantry box?

Tradition. CSM squads were like that since 2002 or so when they got their first modern kit.

That’s not my recollection from when I ran Iron Warriors? Granted that’s a long time ago so I may well be wrong. Back when quite inexplicably they came in a box of 8.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why did Chaos Marines get a weird mix for their infantry box?

Tradition. CSM squads were like that since 2002 or so when they got their first modern kit.

That’s not my recollection from when I ran Iron Warriors? Granted that’s a long time ago so I may well be wrong. Back when quite inexplicably they came in a box of 8.

Each sprue of 4 dudes had 3 bolters and 2 BP+CCW

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why did Chaos Marines get a weird mix for their infantry box?

Tradition. CSM squads were like that since 2002 or so when they got their first modern kit.

That’s not my recollection from when I ran Iron Warriors? Granted that’s a long time ago so I may well be wrong. Back when quite inexplicably they came in a box of 8.

Some of the legion conversion packs had metal boltguns and boltgun arms so the IW one might have made it up to 8?

I had 1k Sons and that kit definitely had two metal boltguns and related arms as there were only 6 in the plastic kit and all 8 rubricae needed boltguns.

I wonder if the Deffkoptas will be EtB too, like the Outriders, or if they will be a proper kit.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why did Chaos Marines get a weird mix for their infantry box?

Tradition. CSM squads were like that since 2002 or so when they got their first modern kit.

That’s not my recollection from when I ran Iron Warriors? Granted that’s a long time ago so I may well be wrong. Back when quite inexplicably they came in a box of 8.

Each sprue of 4 dudes had 3 bolters and 2 BP+CCW

Rules wise, was that also a time we could armed a Chaos Marine with all three weapons?

I feel like we're going to get old boyz sticking around for a while.

GW did something similar with slaves to darkness start collecting. You get fancy new models, but they've got limited, limited options. Meanwhile, old knights and warriors continue to be sold; the fancy modern models are locked behind an expensive box

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why did Chaos Marines get a weird mix for their infantry box?

Tradition. CSM squads were like that since 2002 or so when they got their first modern kit.

That’s not my recollection from when I ran Iron Warriors? Granted that’s a long time ago so I may well be wrong. Back when quite inexplicably they came in a box of 8.

Each sprue of 4 dudes had 3 bolters and 2 BP+CCW

Rules wise, was that also a time we could armed a Chaos Marine with all three weapons?

Nope - at the time of that kit's release, CSM were armed with a bolter or a BP alongside their CCW. The "each CSM has a bolter, BP and CCW" era came in the 4th edition codex.

Found this on reddit, in case there was any question.

"The real heart of the kit is a brand new set of Ork Boyz, with a familiar but updated look. You get a whopping 20 of them, with enough options to make sure none of them look the same."

Looking forward to seeing if this is true or if GW will edit the article

 dan2026 wrote:
This makes me terrified for what they might do for a potential Eldar range refresh.

Dark Eldar should make you terrified for Craftworlds: not do any updates beyond one special character that didn't need it.

Eldar don't have much in the way of options as is, a kit like this wouldn't really be particularly bad for eldar, pretty much every member of a squad type is, by design, in the same helmet and armor.

 GaroRobe wrote:
"The real heart of the kit is a brand new set of Ork Boyz, with a familiar but updated look. You get a whopping 20 of them, with enough options to make sure none of them look the same."

Looking forward to seeing if this is true or if GW will edit the article

I think they meant that their monopose models will each look unique, not that it's impossible to have a unit of all shootas or all sluggas.

What slays me about all of this is that there is no way it was not intentional. GW has done full unit load outs in kits in the past and they know that people want options. But then they come out with sets like this that feel like they're messing with their fan base.

Now I can understand all the pro-GW people loving the games themselves or the universes. I can even get behind the idea that on the whole the quality of their sculpting itself and the range of units offered in plastic is fantastic. But how do you defend something like this? What is the good angle on not actually being able to equip a unit with a load out after buying 2 sets of guys?

Voss wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
This makes me terrified for what they might do for a potential Eldar range refresh.

Dark Eldar should make you terrified for Craftworlds: not do any updates beyond one special character that didn't need it.

Eldar don't have much in the way of options as is, a kit like this wouldn't really be particularly bad for eldar, pretty much every member of a squad type is, by design, in the same helmet and armor.

Dark Eldar are honestly in decent shape model wise. The only model I would consider necessary that was missed would be grotesques, which would have been great as a box of 3 with various options. But besides that, all that needs swapping over is the beastmaster with critters, and court of the archon, though urghuls already exist in plastic.

Eldar need a lot. 6 aspects with exarchs, 6 Phoenix lords. Falcon/wave serpent kit could really use a remaster and refinement like the russ and chimera kit did, keep it compatible with the fire prism sprue though. Vyper should be redone to be the craft world take on the venom/skyweaver chassis. Avatar needs a proper plastic kit, maybe option of spear, sword, and axe. Guardian kit would be really useful, nearly every other basic infantry squad has been redone at this point. Merge the storm and black guardians in and maybe parts to make a warlock. Rangers seem like a logical kill team release.

They could even do an ork style combat patrol with new kits for eldar, say 10 new guardians, a new falcon/wave serpent, a heavy weapon emplacements, 3 jetbikes, and a new autarch on bike.

 the_scotsman wrote:

GW's got three ways they can go here

Best Case: 2-3 months down the line we get "The Real Ork Boyz Kit" and it turns out to be a Sister of Battle/Genestealer Cultist/Deathwatch/Space Marine/Chaos Space Marine situation where you've got an at least somewhat cutomizable kit with unique poses from the monopose kit.

Best Case 2, looks to be how it's going now: GW just never releases new boyz but keeps selling the old ones, ala Chaos Warriors

Bad Case: We get Necron'd, the new monopose kit is the new kit have fun kids.

Fixed that for you…

I think this is one of those rare Dakka moments where despite everyone having differing stances and opinions on some of the terminology, everyone is united in a "uhh what did they do that for?" moment.

It's an incredibly weird choice by GW, as Scotsman mentioned the design intent was there and they were so close to doing something great, but just managed to mildly disgruntle everyone on the way.

Yeah, the sculpts themselves are great, but this feels more like a Underworlds warband than an actual 40K kit.

Or it's made for collectors, not for players.

I dunno, it's very strange.

Other than newer sculpts and for some an improved stance? It’s just objectively a lesser kit than the current one (which remains in production).

One less model, a fraction of the weapon options. That the models are admittedly very very nice isn’t a balancing factor,

Dudeface wrote:
I think this is one of those rare Dakka moments where despite everyone having differing stances and opinions on some of the terminology, everyone is united in a "uhh what did they do that for?" moment.

It's an incredibly weird choice by GW, as Scotsman mentioned the design intent was there and they were so close to doing something great, but just managed to mildly disgruntle everyone on the way.

Easy-to-Build / pushfit kits are an objectively good thing to have around imo, and as limited as they are I'd rather have this kit available alongside the old kit than just the old kit by itself. Especially if this turns out to be part of a larger ETB range reboot, and other models are on the way for other factions.

Where I think GW have fluffed up here is (surprise surprise) the communication. If they'd have said at any point before now that the "new Boyz" were pushfit and aren't actually intended to replace the old kit then a lot of the angst could have been avoided.

Domandi wrote:
Found this on reddit, in case there was any question.

... damn. Not the CSM squad all over again..

All i wanted from the combat patrol was the ability to get 18 shootaboyz and two big shootas.

but na, here get random nonsense squad setup...

now i need to think about how to cut up the ork boyz if i want me some new taller boyzs?

 xttz wrote:
Easy-to-Build / pushfit kits are an objectively good thing to have around imo, and as limited as they are I'd rather have this kit available alongside the old kit than just the old kit by itself. Especially if this turns out to be part of a larger ETB range reboot, and other models are on the way for other factions.

Where I think GW have fluffed up here is (surprise surprise) the communication. If they'd have said at any point before now that the "new Boyz" were pushfit and aren't actually intended to replace the old kit then a lot of the angst could have been avoided.

I guess you're right. Starting orks was a genuine problem from a money perspective as just buying the minimum required amount of boyz would already cost tons of money.

Having a cheap boyz kit without options side by side with the old kit might actually be a good thing for new players.

Of course, that is assuming the new kit actually is cheaper than other troop choices.

Not Online!!! wrote:
now i need to think about how to cut up the ork boyz if i want me some new taller boyzs?

Are they taller? Cause the Kommandos are not, not one bit.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
now i need to think about how to cut up the ork boyz if i want me some new taller boyzs?

Are they taller? Cause the Kommandos are not, not one bit.

Dunno, scratch that, just some new boyzs...

Still has anyone an idea where i could get more shootas?

If you’ve got the sprues from the older Boyz kit, you could theoretically do some hand swaps?

Or you could just bulk up the sluggas into shootas. That's what the orks are doing anyways.

Slugga => add scrap => Shoota => add moar dakka => Kustom Shoota => have mek add spinny or zappy bits => Snazzgun