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There are plenty of “modern” kits that are far less limited in terms of variety of poses and options. The new Kommandos, for one. Personally I thought the old kit was fine but suggesting the shitshow of the new Boyz kit is somehow the fault of people who would have liked to see an update, rather than GW phoning in an absolutely piss-poor effort is a bit daft I reckon.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
That way of thinking is perfectly OK... as long as you replace them for something that can do the same, not... this.

Once you already have a box, two even, of these... how attractive are they? Would you think buying more is a good investment? Or even visually pleasing for an army?

If GW's plan consists on simply selling one or two of these to people who already play orks, that's a very myopic world view.

People were wishing for a modern kit. This is how modern kits have looked like for a while.
It was absolutely clear that it would either be a slightly more expensive kit with mono-pose models and no options whatsoever, or that it would double in price if it were even remotely as modular as the previous one.

There were even a lot of "I don't care, old sculpts are bad and I won't start an army unless they get new boyz because they deserve it", but I'm waiting eagerly now to see all these new ork players building out of these boyz kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nazrak wrote:
There are plenty of “modern” kits that are far less limited in terms of variety of poses and options. The new Kommandos, for one. Personally I thought the old kit was fine but suggesting the shitshow of the new Boyz kit is somehow the fault of people who would have liked to see an update, rather than GW phoning in an absolutely piss-poor effort is a bit daft I reckon.

They were 100% assuredly going to price people out of boyz units if it was anywhere near as good as people expected it to be (and are anyway). It's not just that the box is bad, it could be the best core infantry box in existence but it's widely acknowledged boyz will need to dip a point or two and who wants to buy 10 dudes for £31+ that are worth sub 80 points.

People wanting new Boyz sculpts and being disappointed in them does not have to be mutually exclusive.

I know some people think we should make literal blood sacrifices and pray in thanks GW's benevolent offerings whenever they release something, but come on.

Its been so long since I've bought boyz I had to check. Currently in the US its $36 for a boyz kit which includes 11 models (10 boyz and a nob)

Assuming this goes up to at a minimum $50 like the Tau firewarriors or $60 like the relatively brand new Sisters of Battle squad, that means atm to get 33 models, or more than enough to equip a single full Mob you need $108.

To equip a full mob of Choppa boyz would take 6 full boxes, so you are talking $300-360, if you wanted shoota boyz (why?) you need 10 kits (3 in every box) so you are talking anywhere from $500 to $600 for a single full Troops choice of your choosing.

Not only is this unrealistic, its mentally deficient, if anything this new kit is going to HURT Orkz, no new player is going to want to get into the hobby when you have to spend more than $1,000 just to have 3 full troops choices. Not to mention, atm Orkz are 9ppm. Nobody is going to want to spend that much for what amounts to at most 810pts, Especially since boyz are garbage right now.

The only feasible reason for this level of short bus from GW is that this is just one last effort to crush Ork horde armies. "You can't play Horde if you can't afford the models"

SemperMortis wrote:
Its been so long since I've bought boyz I had to check. Currently in the US its $36 for a boyz kit which includes 11 models (10 boyz and a nob)

Assuming this goes up to at a minimum $50 like the Tau firewarriors or $60 like the relatively brand new Sisters of Battle squad, that means atm to get 33 models, or more than enough to equip a single full Mob you need $108.

To equip a full mob of Choppa boyz would take 6 full boxes, so you are talking $300-360, if you wanted shoota boyz (why?) you need 10 kits (3 in every box) so you are talking anywhere from $500 to $600 for a single full Troops choice of your choosing.

Not only is this unrealistic, its mentally deficient, if anything this new kit is going to HURT Orkz, no new player is going to want to get into the hobby when you have to spend more than $1,000 just to have 3 full troops choices. Not to mention, atm Orkz are 9ppm. Nobody is going to want to spend that much for what amounts to at most 810pts, Especially since boyz are garbage right now.

The only feasible reason for this level of short bus from GW is that this is just one last effort to crush Ork horde armies. "You can't play Horde if you can't afford the models"

The one thing I'll say to that is that, at least where I play, most people would be 100% fine with someone saying "All my Boys are Choppas," even if there's a mix of models. Likewise for Shootas.

So, to be fully WYSIWYG without converting, it's that pricy. To just get bodies on the table to play with friends, it ain't so bad.

Still bad, though.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The one thing I'll say to that is that, at least where I play, most people would be 100% fine with someone saying "All my Boys are Choppas," even if there's a mix of models. Likewise for Shootas.

So, to be fully WYSIWYG without converting, it's that pricy. To just get bodies on the table to play with friends, it ain't so bad.

Still bad, though.

True, in friendly games this isn't a problem, but when you start playing tournaments the judges and players don't like it as much. Not to mention, for a company which once branded itself "We are a Model company not a game company" this is just ridiculous. Orkz are literally the opposite of organized as far as uniform etc, making them basically 1 of 3-5 options as far as sculpt is just a bit dumb.

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The one thing I'll say to that is that, at least where I play, most people would be 100% fine with someone saying "All my Boys are Choppas," even if there's a mix of models. Likewise for Shootas.

So, to be fully WYSIWYG without converting, it's that pricy. To just get bodies on the table to play with friends, it ain't so bad.

Still bad, though.

True, in friendly games this isn't a problem, but when you start playing tournaments the judges and players don't like it as much. Not to mention, for a company which once branded itself "We are a Model company not a game company" this is just ridiculous. Orkz are literally the opposite of organized as far as uniform etc, making them basically 1 of 3-5 options as far as sculpt is just a bit dumb.

Well, they are a model company not a game company, as evidenced by this box being absolutely bloody awful in game terms.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The one thing I'll say to that is that, at least where I play, most people would be 100% fine with someone saying "All my Boys are Choppas," even if there's a mix of models. Likewise for Shootas.

So, to be fully WYSIWYG without converting, it's that pricy. To just get bodies on the table to play with friends, it ain't so bad.

Still bad, though.

True, in friendly games this isn't a problem, but when you start playing tournaments the judges and players don't like it as much. Not to mention, for a company which once branded itself "We are a Model company not a game company" this is just ridiculous. Orkz are literally the opposite of organized as far as uniform etc, making them basically 1 of 3-5 options as far as sculpt is just a bit dumb.

Well, they are a model company not a game company, as evidenced by this box being absolutely bloody awful in game terms.

Technically its bloody awful in game terms and modelling terms. GW is a beneficiary of 1st in, best dressed concept, their actual service is kind of terrible

May want to add that it's your opinion the game and models are awful. I quite enjoy the new models having been an ork players for 10+ years now. They're decent sculpts that don't uproot the entire 40k ork look while bringing something new. We all know it's a cash grab factually but don't knock what many of us enjoy just because you're getting burnt out by it. Thank you!

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
May want to add that it's your opinion the game and models are awful. I quite enjoy the new models having been an ork players for 10+ years now. They're decent sculpts that don't uproot the entire 40k ork look while bringing something new. We all know it's a cash grab factually but don't knock what many of us enjoy just because you're getting burnt out by it. Thank you!

I think the new sculpts look good and aesthetically are a big upgrade from the old ones in that regard. It's just in the context of being Ork Boyz the lack of options is terrible, as you're always going to want multiple boxes unless you're just building a kill team.

Even the Gutrippaz models that are also monopose at least have swappable heads and weapons, and are likely the same price as the new Boyz will be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
People wanting new Boyz sculpts and being disappointed in them does not have to be mutually exclusive.

Exactly.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


That's kind of my point. They're 20 year old models, and I'm sure in that 20 years they've sold tons of them. Even I have a few boxes even though I haven't touched my Ork army since probably 4th edition.

So are we at the point now where those models aren't attracting new players, and old players already have as many as they're likely ever going to buy?

I think it's the opposite. Kits like this don't attract new players. Orks are not SM which are good with just one box, they typically seek different numbers. And considering how those boyz are kitted a new player would just have to buy 2 or 3 of that kit just to field min squad of troops. For 100-150 dollars, ouch. Can't even imagine the moment large mobs of boyz become popular again, how painful (monopose and utterly expensive guys) it will be to field a WYSIWYG GW ork army?

On the other hand with the older kit you might do boyz with all the combinations of weapons you wanted, and were a solid base to kitbash kommandos, burnaboyz, tankbustas or lootas. Same with the current nobz kit, IMHO the very best kit in the ork catalogue: it doesn't matter if nobz don't perform on the table, with that kit you get much better looking nobz that the one included in boyz kit (including the nob from the latest boyz kit) and the bodies and bitz are a solid base to kitbash flash gitz, banner nob, big mek, painboy, weirdboy and most named characters, letting you save a lot of money and giving you a unique army.

A huge portion of the ork player base started that faction due to the converting/customizing possibilities. You remove that and you remove the interest from some possible new players, while I'm not sure it will attract the interest from other kind of players/hobbists in the meantime.

The boyz kit might be very old, IMHO it's still much better than the majority of the kits that were released in 8th and 9th, and I'm not talking about orks but 40k in general.

 Blackie wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


That's kind of my point. They're 20 year old models, and I'm sure in that 20 years they've sold tons of them. Even I have a few boxes even though I haven't touched my Ork army since probably 4th edition.

So are we at the point now where those models aren't attracting new players, and old players already have as many as they're likely ever going to buy?

I think it's the opposite. Kits like this don't attract new players. Orks are not SM which are good with just one box, they typically seek different numbers. And considering how those boyz are kitted a new player would just have to buy 2 or 3 of that kit just to field min squad of troops. For 100-150 dollars, ouch. Can't even imagine the moment large mobs of boyz become popular again, how painful (monopose and utterly expensive guys) it will be to field a WYSIWYG GW ork army?

On the other hand with the older kit you might do boyz with all the combinations of weapons you wanted, and were a solid base to kitbash kommandos, burnaboyz, tankbustas or lootas. Same with the current nobz kit, IMHO the very best kit in the ork catalogue: it doesn't matter if nobz don't perform on the table, with that kit you get much better looking nobz that the one included in boyz kit (including the nob from the latest boyz kit) and the bodies and bitz are a solid base to kitbash flash gitz, banner nob, big mek, painboy, weirdboy and most named characters, letting you save a lot of money and giving you a unique army.

A huge portion of the ork player base started that faction due to the converting/customizing possibilities. You remove that and you remove the interest from some possible new players, while I'm not sure it will attract the interest from other kind of players/hobbists in the meantime.

The boyz kit might be very old, IMHO it's still much better than the majority of the kits that were released in 8th and 9th, and I'm not talking about orks but 40k in general.

Do you think most new players think it through in that much detail though?

Maybe they do, though my thought was more that a new player would just go "ooo, that looks cool" and not think so much about the fact they can kitbash this kit with that kit or that the kit doesn't make a good unit on the tabletop.

A lot of people aren't even players, they're just collectors, or only play once in a blue moon. That type of person would be more inclined to buy the new box over the old box.

I might even buy a box or two to build a kill team, which is a box or two more than I would have bought of the old models.

so most new players are collectors and don't play therefore the box is not that bad because those "players" don't care if they can play with the models

I know what you want to say, but if the discussion is about "new players" and not new collectors/painters (who will by only a single box anyway is if you don't play there is no reason to buy more) it does not matter if the box is better for those that don't play as it is worse for new players

PS: and if you need 2 boxes to get a single Kill Team from it, tells you a lot how bad the content of that box is

"It's a good box as long as you never try to use it for the game it's made for"

 kodos wrote:
so most new players are collectors and don't play therefore the box is not that bad because those "players" don't care if they can play with the models

I know what you want to say, but if the discussion is about "new players" and not new collectors/painters (who will by only a single box anyway is if you don't play there is no reason to buy more) it does not matter if the box is better for those that don't play as it is worse for new players

I guess I was more talking about "new sales" more than players/collectors.

I also don't recall saying it's "not that bad", I think it's pretty awful, I'm mostly just trying to figure out wtf GW were thinking when they thought releasing a box that not only has no options but doesn't even have interchangeability. I can only assume they thought this would work as a quick sales injection versus just having the old Boyz hanging around.

The only good thing about this box, IMO, is they do look nicer than the previous Ork Boyz, which is partly why I'm considering them to make a kill team.

PS: and if you need 2 boxes to get a single Kill Team from it, tells you a lot how bad the content of that box is

I'll be honest, I haven't even looked at what constitutes an Ork kill team team, I just assume it's 1 to 2 boxes the same way as a DKOK kill team is 1 to 2 boxes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
"It's a good box as long as you never try to use it for the game it's made for"

Games Workshop don't make models for games, they make games for models

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Do you think most new players think it through in that much detail though?

Maybe they do, though my thought was more that a new player would just go "ooo, that looks cool" and not think so much about the fact they can kitbash this kit with that kit or that the kit doesn't make a good unit on the tabletop.

Yes, absolutely. We're not in 1998 anymore, the year I started the hobby. Right now there are tons of places where to find info, reviews and suggestions. I think very few people buy stuff at random when they start the hobby, and none would do if already familiar with the hobby.

I believe prices for horde oriented armies and unfriendly kits for gamers like the new ork boyz one are extremely gatekeeping for new players, both newbies and veterans, as people who may want to start orks might already be in the hobby, lots of players have multiple armies.

My point is people who just paint and collect could definitely like the new kit but unlike the older one they won't buy it in droves. Pretty much anyone I know collecting orks has bought 10+ of the older boyz kit, some even 20-30, but what about this thing?

People who are more interested in the game and think about starting orks will certainly search for information before buying stuff and may find that new ork kit isn't that appealing. If they're still interested in getting orks they'll probably buy something else, their roster is pretty wide and the codex allows for multiple builds.

 Blackie wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Do you think most new players think it through in that much detail though?

Maybe they do, though my thought was more that a new player would just go "ooo, that looks cool" and not think so much about the fact they can kitbash this kit with that kit or that the kit doesn't make a good unit on the tabletop.

Yes, absolutely. We're not in 1998 anymore, the year I started the hobby. Right now there are tons of places where to find info, reviews and suggestions. I think very few people buy stuff at random when they start the hobby, and none would do if already familiar with the hobby.

Yeah, maybe, I dunno if I agree with you though. I think for a lot of folks aesthetics play into the decision to start a new army as much or more than the practicality of kitbashing or inconvenience of lack of poses down the track.

And I still think a large portion of the GW sales base either just buy a few kits from an army, and either never paint them, never game with them, and never amass a large army of them.

 Blackie wrote:
My point is people who just paint and collect could definitely like the new kit but unlike the older one they won't buy it in droves. Pretty much anyone I know collecting orks has bought 10+ of the older boyz kit, some even 20-30, but what about this thing?

Sure, but do they make up a large portion of sales *right now*. It's a 20yo kit, I'm sure it's sold many many copies in that 20 years, but how many are being shifted *now* is what plays into the decision GW made to replace it.

Rules change more often than the models on the majority of cases, so this looks like a box aimed at just play and build exactly as is displayed on the box... maybe something in the future of Ork rules is coming.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Rules change more often than the models on the majority of cases, so this looks like a box aimed at just play and build exactly as is displayed on the box... maybe something in the future of Ork rules is coming.

If this unit contains 10 or fever models:
○ Up to 3 Ork Boyz can each equip a Shoota.
○ Up to 5 Ork Boyz can each equip a Slugga and Choppa.
○ Up to 1 Ork Boy can each have their Big Shoota replaced with 1 Rokkit Launcha.
If this unit contains 11 or more models:
○ Up to 6 Ork Boyz can each equip a Shoota.
○ Up to 10 Ork Boyz can each equip a Slugga and Choppa.
○ Up to 2 Ork Boy can each have their Big Shoota replaced with 1 Rokkit Launcha.

Pure fear.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Do you think most new players think it through in that much detail though?

Maybe they do, though my thought was more that a new player would just go "ooo, that looks cool" and not think so much about the fact they can kitbash this kit with that kit or that the kit doesn't make a good unit on the tabletop.

Yes, absolutely. We're not in 1998 anymore, the year I started the hobby. Right now there are tons of places where to find info, reviews and suggestions. I think very few people buy stuff at random when they start the hobby, and none would do if already familiar with the hobby.

Yeah, maybe, I dunno if I agree with you though. I think for a lot of folks aesthetics play into the decision to start a new army as much or more than the practicality of kitbashing or inconvenience of lack of poses down the track.

And I still think a large portion of the GW sales base either just buy a few kits from an army, and either never paint them, never game with them, and never amass a large army of them.

 Blackie wrote:
My point is people who just paint and collect could definitely like the new kit but unlike the older one they won't buy it in droves. Pretty much anyone I know collecting orks has bought 10+ of the older boyz kit, some even 20-30, but what about this thing?

Sure, but do they make up a large portion of sales *right now*. It's a 20yo kit, I'm sure it's sold many many copies in that 20 years, but how many are being shifted *now* is what plays into the decision GW made to replace it.

I'm already that does factor in, however they produced a product that 20 year old veterans won't want more than 1 of and neither will new players, so as far as I can see there is no logic.

Dudeface wrote:
I'm already that does factor in, however they produced a product that 20 year old veterans won't want more than 1 of and neither will new players, so as far as I can see there is no logic.

I don't disagree that it's a weird move, I'm just trying to figure out the logic Maybe GW don't think the whales buying 10+ kits will make up most of their Boyz sales anyway. Maybe they aren't trying to sell the idea of a horde but rather want to draw people into the idea of buying special units, vehicles, etc. They're surely going to sell some of the nework kits, maybe 1 or 2 each to existing players, maybe 1 or 2 to new players/collectors, maybe 1 or 2 to people who want to do an Ork Kill Team, but it's far from ideal.

I certainly would have preferred them to actually put some effort into this kit to have options. I stated somewhere on a previous page my dream for Boyz would be to separate Shoota Boyz and Choppa Boyz into 2 separate kits so that it adds to the variety. At the very least interchangeable heads and weapons would have made a big difference.

I know Jidmah will start sobbing and crying out that it was inevitable, but GW have literally just released Gutrippaz which are better than this, Kommandos which are way better than this, DKOK which are way better than this, and within only the past 4 or so years they've made kits like the Rockgut Trolls and Necromunda Goliath models, so they certainly have the capability, they just didn't put in the effort.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Sure, but do they make up a large portion of sales *right now*. It's a 20yo kit, I'm sure it's sold many many copies in that 20 years, but how many are being shifted *now* is what plays into the decision GW made to replace it.

A bad kit won't sell much right now, even if the unit had good rules. The 20yo kit sold pretty well until months ago, when hordes of boyz were still good rules-wise. I'm not sure that a greentide revamp will make this new kit sell a lot of copies considering how bad it is.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm already that does factor in, however they produced a product that 20 year old veterans won't want more than 1 of and neither will new players, so as far as I can see there is no logic.

I don't disagree that it's a weird move, I'm just trying to figure out the logic Maybe GW don't think the whales buying 10+ kits will make up most of their Boyz sales anyway. Maybe they aren't trying to sell the idea of a horde but rather want to draw people into the idea of buying special units, vehicles, etc. They're surely going to sell some of the nework kits, maybe 1 or 2 each to existing players, maybe 1 or 2 to new players/collectors, maybe 1 or 2 to people who want to do an Ork Kill Team, but it's far from ideal.

I certainly would have preferred them to actually put some effort into this kit to have options. I stated somewhere on a previous page my dream for Boyz would be to separate Shoota Boyz and Choppa Boyz into 2 separate kits so that it adds to the variety. At the very least interchangeable heads and weapons would have made a big difference.

I know Jidmah will start sobbing and crying out that it was inevitable, but GW have literally just released Gutrippaz which are better than this, Kommandos which are way better than this, DKOK which are way better than this, and within only the past 4 or so years they've made kits like the Rockgut Trolls and Necromunda Goliath models, so they certainly have the capability, they just didn't put in the effort.

I agreed wholeheartedly with Jidmah and I did back when people were clamouring for new boyz. The same will happen for guard and nids, get new core horde infantry, lose options and pay 20%+ extra for the pleasure. We're in a state where wanting new core units is bad on a wishlist a lot of the time.

Lots of strong feelings about the new Boyz kit.

Why don't you tell Games Workhop directly what kind of models you want and what not?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Contact-Us

Please be polite and constructive though, that always improves the chances that someone will listen.

Dudeface wrote:
The same will happen for guard and nids, get new core horde infantry, lose options and pay 20%+ extra for the pleasure.

Well we already have the DKOK and they're a big step up over the old Cadians. Remains to be seen if they expand that with heavy weapons and additional command options. But at this point the Cadian models are terrible and cost $45 for 10, I sure won't be buying any more of the current Cadians even though I have a small Cadian force.

Tyranids, the gaunts are already pretty monoposed. Tyranids do have the benefit of being an exoskeleton type species, so the models have the ball and socket joints that typically allow some level of poseability. As someone who owns a Tyranid army, I don't see me buying any more gaunts so if GW want to take another stab at them, it's no skin off my back.

It's probably just a matter of perspective, you guys seem to think things are great as they are and don't want change, I think they're pretty mediocre as they are. These 20 year old core kits whether they be Orks, Cadians or Termagants don't inspire me next to all the other things I could waste my time painting, and so I don't mind GW rolling the dice on trying to improve them. As much as the nework kits suck, I'm gonna buy more of them than I will the old Ork kit.

If you really love the old Orks so much, they're still in stock on every GW regional store and many independent stores, stock up while you can I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stahly wrote:
Lots of strong feelings about the new Boyz kit.

Why don't you tell Games Workhop directly what kind of models you want and what not?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Contact-Us

Please be polite and constructive though, that always improves the chances that someone will listen.

That's a good idea. There's also threads over on reddit that have far more contributors than this thread and they're mostly negative comments, so hopefully GW are listening.

A lot of people over there are still under the belief that the old Boyz are sticking around, supposedly because they only just got reboxed, so instead of GW letting them die out like so many other things they actively put some effort into them. I'm not as convinced, the instances of GW selling two versions of the same kit are very rare.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
... so hopefully GW are listening.

It seems the net result of their big survey this year was "You seem to love the yearly points updates, so now we're going to double how much you pay for these each year!", I'm not sure we want them listening to us anymore; it just makes things worse.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
... so hopefully GW are listening.

It seems the net result of their big survey this year was "You seem to love the yearly points updates, so now we're going to double how much you pay for these each year!", I'm not sure we want them listening to us anymore; it just makes things worse.

But primaris marines have figured out swords now! The standard issue marine swords! Think of the progress! Soon they'll be able to stand inside transports that move on the ground. By 12th edition they'll work out drop pods.

Think of all the rules bloat that overwhelming change will require- these books are obviously absolutely necessary. /s

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
... so hopefully GW are listening.

It seems the net result of their big survey this year was "You seem to love the yearly points updates, so now we're going to double how much you pay for these each year!", I'm not sure we want them listening to us anymore; it just makes things worse.

this is the main problem since end of 7th Edition, GW does listen to the community, but the conclusions they make from what you tell them is very often the opposite of what people wanted (remember, we got 8th and 9th because people told them that the entry barrier is too high and there is too much rules bloat)

Voss wrote:
By 12th edition they'll work out drop pods.

Why would they do that? Repulsors are already capable of orbital drops.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Voss wrote:
By 12th edition they'll work out drop pods.

Why would they do that? Repulsors are already capable of orbital drops.

So GW can make Primaris Dropstrike Podinators extremly undercosted.