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Cronch wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Are stormcast now pushing space marines for their title of most kits? Surely beat primaris alone already now.

Nowhere near enough. Last main-line Stormcast model released was 2018 (and one named hero this year). People love to complain, but there's been nearly 3 years of no stormcast.

I'm moderately excited:
The lady looks way better than optimus prime and less swirly bullgak on her. The vindicators look like a MASSIVE step up from the frankly horrid (and I used to have 20 of them, I know it!) liberator models. They have actual human proportions instead of barrelchests and squatlegs, and their armor looks functional (for fantasy armor). Even the helmets look a bit better (still not a massive fan but it's an improvement). The paladin shown isn't terrible either.

I just hope they actually learned from their mistakes rules-wise and they aren't as pillow-fisted and easy to kill in CC as they used to be, it was sad seeing goblins out-fight Sigmar's Finest.

I’m not a major Stormcast fan necessarily (well in that I don’t play them myself) but I was gonna say it’s been a while, and they were always gonna have more releases than others.
I quite like the look of these.

I think they’re just a variant rather than them doing Primaris versions or whatever, but they’ll just have that stick to them now..

I’ve come to almost always prefer more diversity in my armies when possible. My Necrons are very assembly line, but other stuff I paint skin tones in such a way that they’re not all the same and the shades vary. Even been sticking lady heads on some of my unhelmeted Salamanders.

 TheWaspinator wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 zend wrote:
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?

Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.

Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.

I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints.
Throwing around things like misogamy and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..

I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .

Except wargaming DOES have a huge sexism problem and if you're denying that you're part of the problem.

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in that rambling, incoherent response did you come close to a rational response. I am in fact dumber for having replied to it, and may god have mercy on us all. ( Now before you freak out, that's from a movie for some levity, I know we can't be having no comedy, it's evil and forbidden these days. )

Seriously though, that isn't even true all over. I've never once seen it, allowed it to happen or even heard of it from people I know. You can't just say something is true like it came from the almighty. It's just like your opinion, man ( also from a movie so relax ).

So if its no where I've ever been in my life of gaming, how is it this huge problem ? Could it be, as I've seen more often women just don't mostly care to do model wargames ? I've seen that to be true more often than not. So because I've never seen it I'm now part of the problem ? Maybe you are a problem, or have one if you want to cast such shade on people who don't agree with you. So stop attacking people, especially people that I consider forum friends of mine. Honestly it's the " You're with me or against " attitude that I find most messed up these days and that is a problem you seem to want to embody at this moment.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

That said, has anyone heard if these IG upgrade spures will be sold individually ? Because I would love that. Thanks for your time.

GW didn't say. If if this is something you really want I'd recommend dropping them an email about it.
Originally they didn't plan to sell Titanicus upgrade sprues separately, but after enough customer feedback to show demand it's now standard procedure.

So new Stormcast with each new edition to avoid the need to fix the rules for the old ones
and with SCE being medicore at best those how like to play them will need the new stuff to keep up with the rest
it was already obvious with AoS2, but now.....
lets see how well a "count as" 1st Edi conversion will do


Regarding females, this must be something unique to the GW Bubble

Never got a similar discussion in Kings of War, Deadzone, Infinity, Warmachine or Star Wars Legion were people are "forced" to build and play female models because the female parts in the kit are not optional or only the female model got the good rules

 AduroT wrote:
I’ve come to almost always prefer more diversity in my armies when possible. My Necrons are very assembly line, but other stuff I paint skin tones in such a way that they’re not all the same and the shades vary. Even been sticking lady heads on some of my unhelmeted Salamanders.

Same. For my ogres think i have 6 skin tones so far. Sisters of battle/stormcast like 4.

Makes for more sensibie look and reduces effect monoposes have

Alright, better get to it then, as I have more unmade guard than any human should but getting some of these sprues would be golden.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
So new Stormcast with each new edition to avoid the need to fix the rules for the old ones
and with SCE being medicore at best those how like to play them will need the new stuff to keep up with the rest
it was already obvious with AoS2, but now.....
lets see how well a "count as" 1st Edi conversion will do


Regarding females, this must be something unique to the GW Bubble

Never got a similar discussion in Kings of War, Deadzone, Infinity, Warmachine or Star Wars Legion were people are "forced" to build and play female models because the female parts in the kit are not optional or only the female model got the good rules

I honestly think the only people who care if they are women in a negative way are the absolutely minority of opinions, I've only talked to others who wanted their to be more females because it helped make the army look better, more alive. I know I wanted female guard for a long time. Everyone can die for the emperor and I want them to. ( no evil intended )

As for the Stormcast I don't know why anyone would care what gender they are as they are more disposable than the face you spawn with in CoD matches.

 kodos wrote:
So new Stormcast with each new edition to avoid the need to fix the rules for the old ones

Even if that's the motivation somehow, I'll take it if it means we get better models every edition..

Look at the new hero and tell me anything in the current Stormcast range comes even close. Maybe the Evocators and Palladors do. Maybe the Silver Tower Knight-Questor. Not much else.

tneva82 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So next preview next week or week after that? One saturday this month without preview. Which one?

WE have no idea, be patient. I am guessing new model on monday, and possibly next week will be Kragnos related.

But more interesting topic than female models.

We know there's 2 of 3 saturdays this month with previews. For me thats way more interesting topic than female models.

As far as we know they have said there are going to be new models each week. I am hoping we have some new units other than Kragnos or maybe some Sylvaneth getting some love, it stinks but I do think by the end of the month tehy will release a hint of who the next big faction is.

tneva82 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So next preview next week or week after that? One saturday this month without preview. Which one?

WE have no idea, be patient. I am guessing new model on monday, and possibly next week will be Kragnos related.

But more interesting topic than female models.

We know there's 2 of 3 saturdays this month with previews. For me thats way more interesting topic than female models.

I note whenever there’s a question like this (the “which one” part I mean), there’s often a Be Patient reply. I’ve gotten that myself when trying to spark the back and forth.
I didn’t read your comment as like a whiny I can’t wait kind of thing.
(AC I don’t think you replied rudely I will add, like some, but just didn’t seem to fit the post as necessary).

But it’s better than the man/woman discussion.

Anyway, to me, I think surely they wouldn’t be two weekends together. So 15th and 29th it’s got to be right?

‘I’ve not seen it so it doesn’t exist’ is pretty damn idiotic in and of itself.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:

Except wargaming DOES have a huge sexism problem and if you're denying that you're part of the problem.

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in that rambling, incoherent response did you come close to a rational response. I am in fact dumber for having replied to it, and may god have mercy on us all. ( Now before you freak out, that's from a movie for some levity, I know we can't be having no comedy, it's evil and forbidden these days. )

Seriously though, that isn't even true all over. I've never once seen it, allowed it to happen or even heard of it from people I know. You can't just say something is true like it came from the almighty. It's just like your opinion, man ( also from a movie so relax ).

So if its no where I've ever been in my life of gaming, how is it this huge problem ? Could it be, as I've seen more often women just don't mostly care to do model wargames ? I've seen that to be true more often than not. So because I've never seen it I'm now part of the problem ? Maybe you are a problem, or have one if you want to cast such shade on people who don't agree with you. So stop attacking people, especially people that I consider forum friends of mine. Honestly it's the " You're with me or against " attitude that I find most messed up these days and that is a problem you seem to want to embody at this moment.

He's not wrong though. You really don't have to look very hard to find some very questionable opinions on misogyny (and equality in general) in Warhammer circles. Just look at any of the pushback over GW's statement & disavowal of a certain high-profile community figure last year. These people exist and we have receipts.

Generally anyone with an ounce of social nous or common sense quickly learns when their opinions are 'controversial', and how to keep their mouth shut away from like-minded folks. Just because you haven't met anyone espousing those opinions doesn't mean they don't exist. It's just like those who claimed COVID isn't a real problem because they don't know anyone that caught it.

If you really want to know whether or not you're "part of the problem" (for the record I'm not trying to make a judgment either way here), then imagine tomorrow you met a gamer who said GW was destroying the hobby by adding more female Stormcast. Imagine how you would respond to them and be honest with yourself, and you'll have your answer.

 xttz wrote:


If you really want to know whether or not you're "part of the problem" (for the record I'm not trying to make a judgment either way here)

I'm happy making a judgement, writing a long rambling post full of weak movie quotes to try and deny sexism exists is definitively "part of the problem" territory

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Not saying it isn't a bit too comical (not to mention conical), but it kind of makes sense in the "opera Viking" Dwarf aesthetic - perfectly matches with the helmet and hair in fact.

True, and the overall theme of the dwarves back then often leaned towards the comical, a lot of them had endearingly goofy faces and exaggerated features. And impressively horned helmets.

I wouldn't mind seeing what they could do with a female Fyreslayer or Kharadron, though. I'm guessing the latter would have short hair to make getting into and out of those big bulky looking aeronaut suits easier, for example.

 CMLR wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.

I'm pretty sure the numbere is "42".

I was under the impression that 3 was the magic number...

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Argive wrote:
You guys are not really answering the question that is being asked.

"diversity good" is not an answer on how you achieve and measure it within a product range.. Which is what's being asked. How do you achieve it in order to make everyone happy.

As someone imagine your entire range of models don't include a single person that represents you. There are no different colors, just grey. There is no one you can identify with even though said faction is supposedly having both men and women, but there are no men and there are no women. There are only children, under the age of 4, and its marketed towards you, and 30 year old, for a faction that is supposed to be in their 30s. Its a juxtaposition that does not make sense within universe or out of universe.

Stormcasts are everyone, they can be anyone, thats what is so inspiring about the STormcasts, anyone can be one, all they have to be is a hero. And that can be anyone, as loosely defined as the writers deem it to be. You achieve it by representing someone, by showing who they are, an idealized person. When GW makes a faction they are make eblematic people that we want to be. We want to be lost in the power fantasy of playing these factions, can we... The audience identify with some aspect of the faction. So if no factions you like doesn't represent you at all, or your values then you have no attraction. Its both for marketing and also a connection between player and product.

Players get value out of identity, and the product gets value from support of the player


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.

But, ultimately, I don't think that's what the vast majority of people who feel unrepresented are asking for. They just want to feel included in a way that isn't a token effort.

How can it ever be anything more than a token effort unless you have a goal by which to measure?

You can't measure it, its like trying to measure how much happiness you generate. There is no magic number by which it can be quantified. and that is not what people are asking for, they are asking "can you please represent me?" Which is not that hard especially from one of larger hobbying companies in the world. This hobby especially has a ton of gate keeping issues and this is one of them.

I play Tyranids. So this is a really dumb take. Yeah, the hobby has "gatekeeping issues", such as, if someone doesn't want to play with the exact gender ratio you want them to play with, you call them names.

I’d be way more interested in how they’d do female Fyreslayers than Kharadron. When you do see female miniatures, they most often slant towards conventionally attractive in a way the Fyreslayers couldn’t pull off, and I’d be really curious to see what they did for them with that buff body type in a faction that’s nearly in the, well, buff.

 kodos wrote:
So new Stormcast with each new edition to avoid the need to fix the rules for the old ones
and with SCE being medicore at best those how like to play them will need the new stuff to keep up with the rest
it was already obvious with AoS2, but now.....
lets see how well a "count as" 1st Edi conversion will do


Regarding females, this must be something unique to the GW Bubble

Never got a similar discussion in Kings of War, Deadzone, Infinity, Warmachine or Star Wars Legion were people are "forced" to build and play female models because the female parts in the kit are not optional or only the female model got the good rules

It is unique to the GW bubble because GW is the biggest miniatures company. So the 'culture wars' are more obvious. Nobody in real life actually cares one way or the other, at all. On the internet, like everything else, the worst takes on both sides get blown up then people line up to die on whichever hill is momentarily in the spotlight. Which, I obviously am not immune to getting sucked in occasionally.

The key thing to remember is that the internet is not real life (oh and also that everyone lies on the internet about said fake life).

Who the feth cares?

Quite frankly if GW would finaly produce a kit worth it's price i'd fully expect the option for me to build them as whatever the feth i like, including 4 head options and 2 torsos, and yes, that would be fully within GW's margin to do so, and still earn money. They 'd only earn slightly less money, can'0t have that, instead selling first day DLC and not having an editor for rules is perfectly fine.

Didnt gw said that female dwarves looked the same as male dwarves (beard and everything)?

This thread sadly exemplifies why a lot of women stay away from this hobby. It's not because they don't like wargaming, but because a lot of men are very territorial to their hobby and feel threatened when other groups get interested in their "special" hobby.

I do, however, want to thank each and everyone who took time to stand up against bigotry. It means a lot to those of us who are not welcome in this hobby according to some.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Didnt gw said that female dwarves looked the same as male dwarves (beard and everything)?

Not sure on that one, but it did apply to Dwarves on the Discworld.

 AduroT wrote:
I’d be way more interested in how they’d do female Fyreslayers than Kharadron. When you do see female miniatures, they most often slant towards conventionally attractive in a way the Fyreslayers couldn’t pull off, and I’d be really curious to see what they did for them with that buff body type in a faction that’s nearly in the, well, buff.

They would obviously bind their breasts with their silky, L'Oreal lustrous, ankle-length beards.

I think GW needs to remake Fyreslayers in the image of the current Gotrek. Once we have better proportions across the range, we can trim them down for the female sculpts and let the context do the rest.

tneva82 wrote:

If someone looks like a dog and barks like a dog...

Edit: Trying again with less snark.

Or maybe this particular take is too simplisitic? I prefer my miniatures to be mostly male and I want to have the option to do build them accordingly. I don't care what other people do with their stuff and I welcome everyone to build female miniatures – those should be available as should several other variations. I don't want to exclude women from this hobby either, in fact, I just started a new Frostgrave campaign with my wife.

Does this still qualify as sexist?

If it does, then good riddance. If it doesn't, then you should probably try to actually read what people want to say first before bringing the hammer of moral justice down upon them. This should be a prerequisite in a space where the only way of communicating is in writing.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 zend wrote:
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?

Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.

Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.

I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints.
Throwing around things like misogamy and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..

I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .

Except wargaming DOES have a huge sexism problem and if you're denying that you're part of the problem.

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in that rambling, incoherent response did you come close to a rational response. I am in fact dumber for having replied to it, and may god have mercy on us all. ( Now before you freak out, that's from a movie for some levity, I know we can't be having no comedy, it's evil and forbidden these days. )

Seriously though, that isn't even true all over. I've never once seen it, allowed it to happen or even heard of it from people I know. You can't just say something is true like it came from the almighty. It's just like your opinion, man ( also from a movie so relax ).

So if its no where I've ever been in my life of gaming, how is it this huge problem ? Could it be, as I've seen more often women just don't mostly care to do model wargames ? I've seen that to be true more often than not. So because I've never seen it I'm now part of the problem ? Maybe you are a problem, or have one if you want to cast such shade on people who don't agree with you. So stop attacking people, especially people that I consider forum friends of mine. Honestly it's the " You're with me or against " attitude that I find most messed up these days and that is a problem you seem to want to embody at this moment.

This is an incredibly tone deaf take.

1. You are one person. Your experiences make up an incredibly small percentage of the experiences of wargamers within 10 miles of you, let alone world wide. It is entirely possible that a major systemic problem could miss you entirely. I.e. Malaria is a major problem for huge chunks of the world. The fact that I've never had malaria and my friends have never had malaria, doesn't mean malaria isn't real. You become part of the problem by actively denying that there could possibly be a problem. You'd think this would be pretty obvious now what with all the 'dumbass antimasker who claimed COVID was a hoax because no one in his family had it yet, goes to bar while sick, kills 12 people' stories we've been hearing for the past year and a half.

2. You absolutely have seen sexism, just not what YOU would define as sexism. As with other 'isms' people who don't really have to face them do not generally consider anything that isn't 100% explicit to be discriminatory behavoir. It's not sexism for some people unless they're punching women in the face screaming 'I'm doing this because you're a woman and I hate women! This is explicitly due to you being a woman! I cannot emphasize enough how much this is related to your female-ness!' The idea that it might be a systemic issue and not a case of roving bands of misogynists going from hobby store to hobby store, knocking model kits out of ladies hands, tends to meet resistance.

In reality, there's sexism all over the place. GW used to have sexy slavegirl models for the drukari (keeping in mind that these were explicitly women who had been kidnapped and are being used for rape/torture, and are deliberately fetishized so it will titilate gross guys into buying them). Sexism. 90% of female miniatures had their boobs popping out and were wearing 8 inch stilletto heels when their was no logical reason for it until like 2018. Sexism. 40k Specific example, women were deliberately excluded from factions where excluding women actively violates the fluff (ala many guard and eldar kits). Sexism.

Did you ever consider that the reason women don't like or play miniature wargames has a lot to do with woman being represented as almost exclusively sex objects or just straight up objects for 30 to 40 years?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a hot take about any variety of supersoldier.

If you have a process of creating supersoldiers that is not MASSIVELY more beneficial for males then females, then it should ALWAYS prioritize females.

This doesn't necessarily apply to stormcast because they use souls that are already dead, but it's actually asinine that it doesn't apply to space marines.

Females have a more difficult time in combat situations as a result of less muscle mass due to lack of testosterone and other purely physical factors. If you have a supersoldier serum that compensates for these factors, then for the sake of efficiency, female subjects should be the target. Giving a female soldier the body of a space marine sees a greater return on investment than giving a male soldier the same.

Basically the Emperor is a moron for not making female space marines.

Is this a wargaming forum or a sociology and politics forum? Does the diversity debate belong in news and rumours?

 streetsamurai wrote:
Didnt gw said that female dwarves looked the same as male dwarves (beard and everything)?

Nah there's a bunch of art in the Kharadron tomes which shows them very much of the female persuasion. If you've ever played World of Warcraft they're pretty much identical to female Dwarves in that.

When it comes to Kharadron women it would presumably have to be helmetless, since they all wear helmets/respirators with the exception of Bugman(sson) who did come with a helmet option.

I'd actually prefer a lack of female Fyreslayers. I think having one faction be explicitly patriarchal contrasts the more egalitarian Kharadron, where women having more independence by virtue of everything their society changing so dramatically in the Age of Chaos was an actual plot point of the lore and further displays the distinction between the two societies. I'm sure that bit of lore will quietly be retconned of course, but I'm probably of the minority belief that having some armies in lore being more 'traditional' than others just makes the women popping up more unique when placed next to them (Guard/Sisters when the Marines are there etc)

'Magmaqueens' (I'm so sick of the fire-names) get name dropped in Soulbound and that one piece of female Fyreslayer art appears to be a Doomseeker so that's an option.

 Eldarsif wrote:
This thread sadly exemplifies why a lot of women stay away from this hobby. It's not because they don't like wargaming, but because a lot of men are very territorial to their hobby and feel threatened when other groups get interested in their "special" hobby.

Honestly I would think the bickering is a bigger obstacle to new people joining than gender representation within a given army, but each to their own.

I do, however, want to thank each and everyone who took time to stand up against bigotry. It means a lot to those of us who are not welcome in this hobby according to some.

Arguing that you'd rather have your faction of toy soldiers be predominantly male is not the same as arguing that you don't welcome non-male gamers or representation across the game as a whole. That would be absurd.

The statement: "I don't like female Stormcast" =/= "I don't like women". Personally I have no skin in this game because I have no interest in Stormcast, couldn't care less if they're 0% female, 10% female, 50% female or 100% female, I'm not going to buy them in any case. I just find the argument conflating a desire for a specific aesthetic within ones' army with sexism as absurd as calling it sexist to have separate sporting events for men and women. At some point we have to embrace that there are differences between men and women.

Having good representation doesn't mean everyone has to want every army to be equally divided male and female. I don't particularly want female Space Marines, but ya know, I also don't particularly want male Sisters of Battle either. I'm also quite happy having my Space Wolves represented solely by pale skinned Scandinavians, doesn't mean I hate every other race and don't want them represented in other ways.

I just wish we lived in a world where people could have a discussion about some things without reducing the other person's opinion to a catch all -ism.

Sort of tempted to go look at Artel W and similar threads to see if people objecting to full plated warrior women are the same ones defending naked bound slave women.

As this event is over and the conversation has devolved into what it has I am locking this thread.

All relevant game chat can be taken to its own topics in their forums.