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It's still hard for me to believe we've really gotten to the point where $60 Pre-LC is something people will accept. Some GW marketing executive is patting themselves on the back as we speak.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's still hard for me to believe we've really gotten to the point where $60 Pre-LC is something people will accept. Some GW marketing executive is patting themselves on the back as we speak.

Only a few (at least here). Most people, I suspect, are sitting these warzones out. I really hope the sales figures tell GW to stop this crap.
Unfortunately I suspect Broken Realms will prop this release type up from the AoS side of things.

Voss wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's still hard for me to believe we've really gotten to the point where $60 Pre-LC is something people will accept. Some GW marketing executive is patting themselves on the back as we speak.

Only a few (at least here). Most people, I suspect, are sitting these warzones out. I really hope the sales figures tell GW to stop this crap.
Unfortunately I suspect Broken Realms will prop this release type up from the AoS side of things.

It helps that the Broken Realms books are $20USD cheaper than these and contain much more useful content to boot.

I'm confused about a few things.

I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it. If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)

I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Literally nothing is "required" to run AdMech in book. It was just a specialized list.

Then why aren't those rules just in the new AdMech book? Why wasn't the Dark Eldar stuff just in the Dark Eldar book that came out the same day?

It's Day-1 DLC, and it's a disgusting practice.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, I'd have split that list into three books that were basically must-haves just to tax the Cult Mechanicus complainers who got my Skitarii screwed over anyways.

"My Skitarii". AdMech is AdMech is AdMech. This imaginary distinction that you've created for yourself is just beyond silly at this point, especially given we have been told the exact reason why GW split the army in half originally.

Seabass wrote:
I'm confused about a few things.

I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it. If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)

I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.

You want a story that is moveing buy from Audible or something. I never played 40k to buy scattering of semi worthless books to make a faction somewhat whole. Also i dont want to drag around 5 books or so to cover my army and crusade game mode options, and cancer approved if i want a matched play game aswell. And also no one really asked for a Be'Lakor army aka. Fabious Bile v2 (heck, did anyone even ask for fabious bile army?). Mostly people wanted somthing along the lines what Khorne Daemonkin did back in the day, with plenty of options and units, alot of stuff. Im really sick and tired of this watered down stuff, when you buy a codex its mostly bland, nothing really exciteing, they save all that for supplements. GW's constant pressure for people to buy books is really getting annoying. At this point they might aswell rip off the bandaid and have us buy faction booter packs for our unit rules and stratagems. "yo, anyone wanna trade Belakor for 1000 cultist cards?"

Anyway that why im pissed at them, its such a constant money trap with very little for my army and alot of extra i dont care about or want. Give me a proper juicy codex, and ill gladly pay big money. But GW is gonna do their thing, and then so am i with "my" PDF's. Only book ive bought since 2016 is 9th edition rulebook.

It's not the idea of a campaign book, it's every single detail of how they are doing it.

1) Prioritizing releasing "campaign books" over codexes, giving even more rules to certain factions while other factions still stuggle with outdated 8th edition books that can't compete.

2) Holding back content from new codexes in order to instead put them in the "campaign book" that comes out at the exact same time.

3) Creating a "campaign book" that isn't just a campaign book, it has has competitively broken rules in it, because they know a campaign book itself wouldn't sell as well.

4) Putting two pages of rules for four different armies into the book instead of creating a real codex supplement for one faction, again because they hope it'll sell better that way.

5) Then, the turd on the top of the cake, charging a ridiculous $60 price point for the thing.

The whole thing is just super scummy, almost astoundingly so. It's like GW got the criticism from PA - nothing happens, very uneven rule quality, high price point - and said "yeah? you didn't like that? well, have this then, suckers!"

OK, those are fair arguments. I didn't know. I don't mind them, I actually like them, and 60.00 is nothing, but I can certainly understand the criticisms and agree with some of them. thanks for taking the time to explain it.

I feel a twenty page hate thread coming on, so in and out quick on page two.

First and foremost, I agree that the campaign book cycle should not have begun until all the dexes were out. If they had done so, I believe they could have avoided some of that hate.

I understand the anger, and I think it's valid. I don't share that anger personally, but I get it.

I do, however, think that once all the codexes are out, campaign books are preferable to an edition reset.

I also don't think it is at all accurate to say that material was held back from a codex; this material wouldn't work in a dex. You can't write a supplement for just one subfaction in a dex. If these books did not exist, the content in them would simply be lost- it would not exist at all.

The content was supposed to be optional. The first book was optional. This time around though, Be'Lakor's inclusion is problematic as this is the only published source for his rules at the moment.

Why not? There's no rule against it. Certain subfactions often get most of the special characters, for example.

And if the content really *is* so problematic that it couldn't be included in a codex because it's unfair to the other subfactions, it *shouldn't* be released at all, certainly not at this stage of the edition.

Seabass 798109 11115661 wrote:
They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it

There are places in the world, where playing at home is not the majority way of playing. And let me just say it, that store owners are not very fond of people trying to use battle scribe, when they have the books on sale.


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PenitentJake wrote:
I feel a twenty page hate thread coming on, so in and out quick on page two.

First and foremost, I agree that the campaign book cycle should not have begun until all the dexes were out. If they had done so, I believe they could have avoided some of that hate.

They could have started with different factions though. GW wants a campaign book to sell more models, no problem with that. But why not make the first book with rules for 4 armies that are really in need of help. a GSC, Tau, Knights and lets say IG book would be at least something that could make those armies survive for the next 6-12 months.

Instead they put out books for armies that are either getting a codex, just got a codex or would be getting a codex, if GW didn't have huge delays. It is good that in most cases those books aren't obligatory. And a different way to play armies, opens it up for people who maybe want to play them in a different way.

But picking a few pages of new rules for DG, over GSC or Tau feels kind of a wrong. But maybe it makes the books sell great. I barely understand how GW thinks about their whole sells strategy.

Too many people on this forum play armchair CEO justifying GWs behaviour. I sometimes wonder if GWs behaviour would fail the UKs customer standards. If you weren’t part of the hobby you’d probably just see this as GW breaking its product intentionally to keep you paying, knowing that once customers had invested a decent amount of money they will feel compelled to buy the extra content rather than cut their losses.

The consistency with which GW seem to release addition rules would make you think they are getting it wrong in the first place on purpose or not taking enough care to try and create a functional product at release.

One way of looking at it is when a new battlefield game comes out you can buy the game or the enhanced edition that unlocks all the guns but it’s feels more like if you bought a game and then had to pay for bug fixes and patches.

Unless someone on this forum works for GW our role is the customer and we have the right to expect value for money. If I can get an equivalent index for the fallen for 5 pounds but need to spend 35 pounds to get the index for belakor then that’s not right, just because it wedged in with a load of fluff and other stuff. Especially if GW know that they are releasing the rules in a comprehensive, cheaper, rule book in the future.

What surprises me about the campaign books is that they exist at all.

Or, to put it another way, that they aren't Crusade books. Given the push GW has for Crusade, and that it features in every new Codex, wouldn't it make sense that their narrative-driven campaign expansions are all Crusade expansions?

Seems odd to release campaign books and also Crusade campaign books. I also think that if all the exclusive rules in these books were Crusade rules people wouldn't be so (justifiably) salty about it. Sure as hell wouldn't feel like Day-1 DLC.

mrFickle wrote:

Karol wrote:
As long as it is just optional stuff, then it is okey. Problems start when you get something like the GK PA book, where the codex alone is just unplayable without it.

You can play GK without the PA, the added PA rules are an option.

Where does it say optional? It gives you these rules whether you like it or not.

 vict0988 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Karol wrote:
As long as it is just optional stuff, then it is okey. Problems start when you get something like the GK PA book, where the codex alone is just unplayable without it.

You can play GK without the PA, the added PA rules are an option.

Where does it say optional? It gives you these rules whether you like it or not.

But you could just play with the codex. It an option to buy the additional rule books. Just as it optional to buy the book with disciples of belakor rules in it. Just depends how badly you want it

mrFickle wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Karol wrote:
As long as it is just optional stuff, then it is okey. Problems start when you get something like the GK PA book, where the codex alone is just unplayable without it.

You can play GK without the PA, the added PA rules are an option.

Where does it say optional? It gives you these rules whether you like it or not.

But you could just play with the codex. It an option to buy the additional rule books. Just as it optional to buy the book with disciples of belakor rules in it. Just depends how badly you want it

Please stop the white knighting gak, you can no more play GK without PA than you can with the GK psychic discipline ripped out at the back your book, sure, you can just make up your own psychic powers or only use Smite despite having access to more powers, but then you are not playing the real game. The rules of GK are changed in PA, it's not just an optional addition in the same way that Specialist Detachments or the new Rust rules are, it's fundamentally changing the rules of the faction in a non-optional way.

Seabass wrote:
I'm confused about a few things.

I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all.

When a core playstyle of a superfaction is tied to a campaign book. yeah. no that isn't not mandatory at that stage and i reckon any WB player or invoker , etc would argue you on that point.

The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it.

This might surprise you but not all people like piracy, and whilest personally my stance is what comes around goes arround in regards to GW, that is my subjective standard.

If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)

So let's see, this is 1day / pre-order type dlc behaviour of companies like SEGA, EA, etc. It's tieing core mechanics of a whole superfaction to a book that should just baseline be happening without the need for a separate book of cut content. There's a majority of factions still running with 8th edition rules not updated. If you were not a loyalist SM your armies also didn't get updated into 9th era, cue 1 w csm. There's factions like GSC which in essence work on old stipulations and atm basically have a completely disfunctional relationship torwards the 9th rules... yeah i wonder why people have issues with this..

I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.

I don't because GW already has once again proven that they can't maintain their oversight over their rulessources cue book of rust dt de lists rolling over competitive scene and other great rulesjank. Basically GW want's to milk the playerbase via cutting out content and monetising it's base with reccuring spending via selling books piecemeal for factions but hasn't even the capability to not feth up.
You know what would've been more exiting than an campaign book to cut out bel'akor from a daemondex and a core playstyle for chaos?
When GW would've released an FAQ update for CSM and a dex for Daemons that is for once worth two gaks.

PenitentJake wrote:
I feel a twenty page hate thread coming on, so in and out quick on page two.

First and foremost, I agree that the campaign book cycle should not have begun until all the dexes were out. If they had done so, I believe they could have avoided some of that hate.

If they wait until codexes are out then new edition is pretty much around the corner and codex cycle begins again though.


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Seabass wrote:
They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it.

You have access to one source that is so easily faked nobody sane would trust just BS. Apart from all the errors it has(I keep running into some ever so often) it can also be deliberately faked. Easily. Doesn't take any real skill at all.

If you trust BS without actual evidence you are saying publicly "it's okay to cheat vs me"

tneva82 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
I feel a twenty page hate thread coming on, so in and out quick on page two.

First and foremost, I agree that the campaign book cycle should not have begun until all the dexes were out. If they had done so, I believe they could have avoided some of that hate.

If they wait until codexes are out then new edition is pretty much around the corner and codex cycle begins again though.


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Seabass wrote:
They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it.

You have access to one source that is so easily faked nobody sane would trust just BS. Apart from all the errors it has(I keep running into some ever so often) it can also be deliberately faked. Easily. Doesn't take any real skill at all.

If you trust BS without actual evidence you are saying publicly "it's okay to cheat vs me"

But again, that’s a flaw with their system that they perpetuate to get more cash as people who have spent thousands on GW products want to keep their armies relevant compared to the ones already updated for the new edition.

GW should plans the new edition and codex released in advance and make them available around roughly the same time. This is totally possible because they should already be working on the next update/edition. If they are not doing this then they are not testing the product and are making players pay for game corrections. This is why so many factions are OP at release, it’s easier to make them OP, let the community test out the major flaws and then correct. As it is they are making it up as they go along.

GW are a company making big time money out of a small time operation and they need to reinvest some the profit into scaling up their operation.

I’m not against campaign books, I don’t really know what they are there for because I don’t play that way. What I am against is the delay of the baseline rules for the game and all factions and the federation of faction rules across multiple full price products.

No, mrFickle, they releasing all the rules about the same time would spread their earnings problematically. It's better to spread the releases overall for the shareholders for the quartal analysis.

I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.

mrFickle wrote:
I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.

yeah but you are not the target audience, this is for "whale hunting" purposes.
Which incidentally also allows them to get more money whilest also having to produce less saving costs that way.

mrFickle wrote:
I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.

You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, mrFickle, they releasing all the rules about the same time would spread their earnings problematically. It's better to spread the releases overall for the shareholders for the quartal analysis.

Exactly, there’s no consumer consciousness beyond the acknowledgment that enough people will keep buying anything they put out.

I mean after PA I’m surprised the auxiliary books are selling as well as they clearly are.

GW will sell an uneven system then make you pay to even it out or make it uneven in your factions favour which then requires other players to pay to get an even playing field for their faction.

The simple reason that CSM have not got 2 wounds via an FAQ is because GW know that one simple stat will make the new codex fly off the shelves at the speed of light

tneva82 wrote:

Seabass wrote:
They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it.

You have access to one source that is so easily faked nobody sane would trust just BS. Apart from all the errors it has(I keep running into some ever so often) it can also be deliberately faked. Easily. Doesn't take any real skill at all.

If you trust BS without actual evidence you are saying publicly "it's okay to cheat vs me"

If you are playing in an environment where other players are so likely to cheat on you that you can't trust them if they just bring a BS list, you got a whole different problem than a 60$ expansion book.

mrFickle 798109 11115759 wrote:

But you could just play with the codex. It an option to buy the additional rule books. Just as it optional to buy the book with disciples of belakor rules in it. Just depends how badly you want it

How badly you want it? have you seen the GK codex for 8th ed, and the PA update. Saying you can play GK without PA is like saying you can play marines based on a pre CA/FAQ 8th ed marine codex.
Even if somehow you wanted to skip on the powers, relics and the rest of the stuff, which you do not want to do, there is still the tides and playing without them is a bit hard to pull of condsidering they change the core rules of the GKs.

Plus as a bonus a ton of basic space marine spill over rules from 8th ed, no longer exist in the GK FAQ, so if you want your marines to use bolters and do melee like everyone else and have a rules basis for it you need to somehow buy the book. Thankfuly the army is kind of a bottom tier now, so the problem of actually getting your hands on an OOP book isn't big.

mrFickle wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, mrFickle, they releasing all the rules about the same time would spread their earnings problematically. It's better to spread the releases overall for the shareholders for the quartal analysis.

Exactly, there’s no consumer consciousness beyond the acknowledgment that enough people will keep buying anything they put out.

I mean after PA I’m surprised the auxiliary books are selling as well as they clearly are.

GW will sell an uneven system then make you pay to even it out or make it uneven in your factions favour which then requires other players to pay to get an even playing field for their faction.

The simple reason that CSM have not got 2 wounds via an FAQ is because GW know that one simple stat will make the new codex fly off the shelves at the speed of light

Well why wouldn't it if core functionality for CSM armies or chaos is locked behind these books?
If anything chaos players are probably one of the easiest parts of the playerbase to catch with this behaviour, because tendencially we yearn for customizability, which probably is especially for the older players kind of the point of chaos.
Which in turn means that fomo and frustration marketing are some easy tactics to get money period but especially easy to do on that segment of the community.

and what they lose slightly out on sales from those of us that got aware of the BS and call it out is compensated by those that need to have it in tripple slightly differing product .
And you know what, i rekon if they'd release something Lost and the damned style /R&H in regards to rules i'd probably also lap it up aswell, or atleast i don't trust myself to refuse it.

a_typical_hero 798109 11115808 wrote:
If you are playing in an environment where other players are so likely to cheat on you that you can't trust them if they just bring a BS list, you got a whole different problem than a 60$ expansion book.

And ? It is better to expect people to cheat and check for stuff, then read some horror stories about dudes in germany or US cheating in event after event cross multiple games for years.

And this is before any cultural differences kick in, because you maybe will be suprised, but majority of the world only thinks that cheating is bad in two situations . First when someone else does it, and second if you get caught. Any design paradigma based around people have to be nice, friendly and "talk stuff over" is just stupid. Because all it does is to give people with higher standing at the store to force even more stuff on other players, because the rules aren't clear. If the rules are clear, then even if they are the store owner, the rules are writen the same for everyone.

Also of note is that BS is more trustworthy than the official GW app anyways...

macluvin wrote:
Also of note is that BS is more trustworthy than the official GW app anyways...

TBF, WTF gw did with that app... i have no idea... And GW dares to monetise it even though it's still not fixed and still makes them money goes to show what is the target audience of the hobby.