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Both of them are appalling, it's hard to pick. Episode 9 is a complete mess however episode 8 was bad in a purposeful, spiteful, almost malicious way. Probably the most disappointingly awful big budget film of the last 30 years.

Cynista wrote:
Both of them are appalling, it's hard to pick. Episode 9 is a complete mess however episode 8 was bad in a purposeful, spiteful, almost malicious way. Probably the most disappointingly awful big budget film of the last 30 years.

Yes.... yes. That's exactly it. TLJ feels like it was done by someone who hated Star Wars and hated Star Wars fans and who wanted to do everything he could to spite them. And in that goal, he succeeded.

 Vulcan wrote:

Cynista wrote:
Both of them are appalling, it's hard to pick. Episode 9 is a complete mess however episode 8 was bad in a purposeful, spiteful, almost malicious way. Probably the most disappointingly awful big budget film of the last 30 years.

Yes.... yes. That's exactly it. TLJ feels like it was done by someone who hated Star Wars and hated Star Wars fans and who wanted to do everything he could to spite them. And in that goal, he succeeded.

Agreed. I just watched the latest Hellboy reboot and it reminded me of Episode 9. It was an overblown and undercooked mess made by too many cooks in the kitchen of a variety that we've seen plenty of times in the past... in the end just a garden variety bad movie that while disappointing and a missed opportunity but ultimately not maliciously so. TLJ was a calculated attempt to undo what the previous movie set up as well disrupt the "expectations" of long time customers/fans of the franchise. It wasn't a bug but a feature (to use the programming meme) that it turned out how it did. Episode 8 is more cringey by far.

I'm not sure what people mean by 'more cringey'. If this is just 38 000th thread about the subject "TLJ sucks more/less than TRoS", then lets have it die a quick death. At this point, opinions are entrenched and no amount of debate can bring any resolve.

8 is a deeply flawed movie that almost did something cool. It has some pretty great visuals and touches on some interesting ideas, but ultimately fails to stick the landing.

9 is a pile of absolute crap, completely incoherent with a terrible message and themes and very little in the way of interesting visuals or ideas. It also wastes the potential of some likeable characters and is just generally dubious.

But the cringiest thing about these movies is always the fan reaction, and the fan reaction to 8 was an order of magnitude more cringey than the fan reaction to 9, so I guess that makes it the cringiest Star Wars movie.

Star Wars is pretty deeply mediocre when you look at it. 2 actually good movies out of 11 is not great. (Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, if you're asking).

 Vulcan wrote:

Cynista wrote:
Both of them are appalling, it's hard to pick. Episode 9 is a complete mess however episode 8 was bad in a purposeful, spiteful, almost malicious way. Probably the most disappointingly awful big budget film of the last 30 years.

Yes.... yes. That's exactly it. TLJ feels like it was done by someone who hated Star Wars and hated Star Wars fans and who wanted to do everything he could to spite them. And in that goal, he succeeded.

You beat me to it. Fully agree.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
I have some sympathy with the writers of episode 9. They were dealt such a bad hand with episode 8 there wasn't a great deal they could do.

The writers of 9 (though at that point it was not known they were going to write it) reviewed the script of 8 and had no issues with it. JJ & Kasdan even changed the last scene of TFA on RJ's request.

 Da Boss wrote:
8 is a deeply flawed movie that almost did something cool. It has some pretty great visuals and touches on some interesting ideas, but ultimately fails to stick the landing.

9 is a pile of absolute crap, completely incoherent with a terrible message and themes and very little in the way of interesting visuals or ideas. It also wastes the potential of some likeable characters and is just generally dubious.

But the cringiest thing about these movies is always the fan reaction, and the fan reaction to 8 was an order of magnitude more cringey than the fan reaction to 9, so I guess that makes it the cringiest Star Wars movie.

Star Wars is pretty deeply mediocre when you look at it. 2 actually good movies out of 11 is not great. (Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, if you're asking).

There's badly done movies, and then there's movies done specifically to spite the fan base. Some movies are so bad they become good - Army of Darkness is a great example of the former. TLJ is the essential expression of the later.

Complaining about the fan's reaction to a movie that was crafted to provoke EXACTLY the response they got is silly.

It's so easy to assume malice despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's also easy to point the finger at 8 despite all the bull crap mystery box foundation laid out by 7.

8 is the only movie in the new trilogy that had ANYTHING interesting to say.

I thought TLJ had some spite aimed towards the prequels, TFA, and “safe” Star Wars cash ins, but I didn’t feel any malice directed at Star Wars fans in general. (The Poe thing feels more like a take-that at by-the-numbers Star Wars...a poorly realized one, but that’s what makes it not a good Star Wars movie).

In contrast, TFA felt complacent-yet-try hard, like it took Star Wars fans for granted and tried to do nothing new or interesting, but really needed you to know that it also loves the OT, please associate it with the OT. I wish I could say it was malice that it assumed Star Wars fans are so dumb and easily manipulated, but I think that’s more just JJ Abrams’ style.

TROS oozed with contempt for the preceding movie. It wasn’t contemptuous of the audience, but it was craven. It was desperate to stay on the good side of an audience it seemed to think wasn’t as discerning for quality entertainment as it was ravenous for validation. An embarrassing film to enjoy unironically.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

In contrast, TFA felt complacent-yet-try hard, like it took Star Wars fans for granted and tried to do nothing new or interesting, but really needed you to know that it also loves the OT, please associate it with the OT. I wish I could say it was malice that it assumed Star Wars fans are so dumb and easily manipulated, but I think that’s more just JJ Abrams’ style.

Yep, he did same with Star Trek movies...particularly the second.

One thing which did cringe me in TLJ was humour, it nearly always fell flat. TRoS wasn't too great in this respect either, but it had at least couple of moments which were somewhat funny. Plot and dialogue-wise, I was rolling eyes more with TRoS.

 Vulcan wrote:

Cynista wrote:
Both of them are appalling, it's hard to pick. Episode 9 is a complete mess however episode 8 was bad in a purposeful, spiteful, almost malicious way. Probably the most disappointingly awful big budget film of the last 30 years.

Yes.... yes. That's exactly it. TLJ feels like it was done by someone who hated Star Wars and hated Star Wars fans and who wanted to do everything he could to spite them. And in that goal, he succeeded.

Thats entirely contrary to my take. To me Episode 8 was made by someone that understood Star Wars better than most of its fans and spent a lot of time analyzing missed details in not just the films, but also things like The Clone Wars (as well as a lot of deep cuts from the expanded uinverse), and then lovingly built a film that attempted to deconstruct all of that... and went way too far.

The Force Awakens.

The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker were good films, and didn't find them cringeworthy.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Thats entirely contrary to my take. To me Episode 8 was made by someone that understood Star Wars better than most of its fans and spent a lot of time analyzing missed details in not just the films, but also things like The Clone Wars (as well as a lot of deep cuts from the expanded uinverse), and then lovingly built a film that attempted to deconstruct all of that... and went way too far.

Yeah I never got the impression that RJ hated the franchise. He seemed to have much more passion for it than writers of TFA, who clearly were there just getting bread to their tables.

It's just that those who love us sometimes hurt us the most...

To me the whole sequel trilogy wasn't just cringe inducing, it was spasm inducing.

I think the worst part was that the force will forever perpetuate an endless cycle of war that goes on forever and most most people are just blaster fodder to be killed in the background while the magic space wizards decide the outcome of this battle with their red and blue laser swords.

No one can ever win. One side wins, the force sends in a ringer to the other side. The republic falls, the jedi are like "Eh, lets go hide in a swamp and a desert and wait for the force to send us a new champion we can use."

The good guys win but palpatine becomes the bad guy champion and turns kylo ren into a ringer for the dark side. So the light side just turns rey into the good guy side ringer.

Everyone else are just background characters, all the big issues are settled by super space wizards, chosen ones, etc. No one else really matters much, just supporting characters for the elite chosen ones.

I liked rogue one because it was about characters who weren't basically superheroes with magic force powers. of course they all die to give the new chosen one, luke, a shot at blowing up the death start but hey, non main character lives don't matter.

That seemed to be the overall theme i got from the sequel trilogy.

 Lance845 wrote:
It's so easy to assume malice despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's also easy to point the finger at 8 despite all the bull crap mystery box foundation laid out by 7.

8 is the only movie in the new trilogy that had ANYTHING interesting to say.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Had 8 been done as a stand-alone movie with zero connection to Star Wars, it would actually have been a pretty good generic sci-fi movie.

But it IS connected to Star Wars, and went out of it's way (call it malice, call it incompetence, call it a political agenda, call it being too clever for your own good, the result is the same) to break those connections... and therefore becomes a terrible Star Wars movie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Cynista wrote:
Both of them are appalling, it's hard to pick. Episode 9 is a complete mess however episode 8 was bad in a purposeful, spiteful, almost malicious way. Probably the most disappointingly awful big budget film of the last 30 years.

Yes.... yes. That's exactly it. TLJ feels like it was done by someone who hated Star Wars and hated Star Wars fans and who wanted to do everything he could to spite them. And in that goal, he succeeded.

Thats entirely contrary to my take. To me Episode 8 was made by someone that understood Star Wars better than most of its fans and spent a lot of time analyzing missed details in not just the films, but also things like The Clone Wars (as well as a lot of deep cuts from the expanded uinverse), and then lovingly built a film that attempted to deconstruct all of that... and went way too far.

I would argue that, as his Holdo maneuver invalidates the whole concept of having a Death Star... and therefore invalidates no less than three previous movies, including the very FIRST movie.

Hyperdrives and navigation computers and droid brains are DIRT CHEAP compared to the Death Star. Wander into a system's asteroid belt or Oort cloud, find a suitable object, install the necessary equipment, set it off and smash the planet. No muss, no fuss, and no WARNING.

And yet, hyperspace ramming has been explored in various ways within various forms of Star Wars media going back basically to the beginning. Hell, Han has a line of dialog in A New Hope that alludes to the very concept.

It isn't a new concept within the lore, that you and most audiences seem unfamiliar with it is more of a you problem than a him problem.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's so easy to assume malice despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's also easy to point the finger at 8 despite all the bull crap mystery box foundation laid out by 7.

8 is the only movie in the new trilogy that had ANYTHING interesting to say.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Had 8 been done as a stand-alone movie with zero connection to Star Wars, it would actually have been a pretty good generic sci-fi movie.

But it IS connected to Star Wars, and went out of it's way (call it malice, call it incompetence, call it a political agenda, call it being too clever for your own good, the result is the same) to break those connections... and therefore becomes a terrible Star Wars movie.

It didn't BREAK those connections. It built on them to be the only movie in all 9 to have anything interesting to say about the nature of the force and force users and the cycles of conflict that permeate the galaxy. 8 is the only movie to question the doctrines of the jedi and sith. It's the only one to say that maybe the force isn't a light and dark side, maybe it just is. Maybe things are not so black and white. Maybe the rebellion or resistance and the empire or first order are not so clearly cut into good guys and bad guys. When the hacker dude on the ship talks about companies selling ships to both sides, about children and casualties on all sides, that is a thematic thing to bring to the table that SW was sorely lacking and makes the universe significantly more interesting. When the Dark side place that Rey goes to shows her visions and it's not evil and corrupting despite Luke's fear of it it has a lot to say about how the dark side ALSO has things to teach people. When Rey was nobody and her parents were no one, when that slave kid force pulled a broom into his hands and held it like a light saber silhouetted against the star field of the night sky saying that ANYONE could be the hero and magic blood lines don't matter it opened up the galaxy of SW into a bigger and broader more interesting place.

8 is NOT a perfect movie. Things could have been done better. For sure there were missteps and dumb gak. But again, it's the ONLY movie in the entire saga with anything interesting to say about the core themes the whole thing is about. 7 and 9... its just the same crap spoon fed to you with the flimsiest bs in the world. And it just shrunk the universe right back down to the same couple families and their friends running into the same dozen people on the same 5 planets again. The whole franchise is worse off because of it.

chaos0xomega wrote:
And yet, hyperspace ramming has been explored in various ways within various forms of Star Wars media going back basically to the beginning. Hell, Han has a line of dialog in A New Hope that alludes to the very concept.

It isn't a new concept within the lore, that you and most audiences seem unfamiliar with it is more of a you problem than a him problem.

The vast majority of the audience for the SW movies has never engaged with anything other than the movies, and maybe some video games. It's hardly the audience's problem that hyperspace ramming invalidates the threat of the Death Stars according to the information they are given in those movies. That one scene in Ep8 makes the entirety of the climax to ANH feel completely pointless if you take even one second to think about it, while also making the Empire out to be a bunch of complete idiots for even thinking about developing the Death Star in the first place. Thankfully their idiocy is matched by the Rebellion not just firing a capital ship at the thing as soon as they get the chance. If most audiences are unfamiliar with it, as you claim, it's the job of the filmmakers to explain it sufficiently so that it makes sense rather than leaving loads of people pointing out it's ridiculous. Yes, Han has a throwaway line about jumping straight into a planet or a star but the assumption I think most people made about that line was that it would lead to the destruction of the ship, not the object they were jumping into. I think it's a huge stretch to say that line is specifically about hyperspace ramming.

Slipspace wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
And yet, hyperspace ramming has been explored in various ways within various forms of Star Wars media going back basically to the beginning. Hell, Han has a line of dialog in A New Hope that alludes to the very concept.

It isn't a new concept within the lore, that you and most audiences seem unfamiliar with it is more of a you problem than a him problem.

The vast majority of the audience for the SW movies has never engaged with anything other than the movies, and maybe some video games. It's hardly the audience's problem that hyperspace ramming invalidates the threat of the Death Stars according to the information they are given in those movies. That one scene in Ep8 makes the entirety of the climax to ANH feel completely pointless if you take even one second to think about it, while also making the Empire out to be a bunch of complete idiots for even thinking about developing the Death Star in the first place. Thankfully their idiocy is matched by the Rebellion not just firing a capital ship at the thing as soon as they get the chance. If most audiences are unfamiliar with it, as you claim, it's the job of the filmmakers to explain it sufficiently so that it makes sense rather than leaving loads of people pointing out it's ridiculous. Yes, Han has a throwaway line about jumping straight into a planet or a star but the assumption I think most people made about that line was that it would lead to the destruction of the ship, not the object they were jumping into. I think it's a huge stretch to say that line is specifically about hyperspace ramming.

It's not just the death star that makes no sense. In SW if you think about anything for long enough none of it makes sense.

Droids exist. C3P0 is fluent in over 6 MILLION forms of communication. Why the feth does R2D2 beep? Why does someone need to manually input hyperspace coordinates? Why don't ships have AIs? How come the targeting computers are a 2 color screen like a hand held game and watch? Why isn't the computer handling targeting? Why do individuals have to sit in gun turrets and pull triggers on a ship so big it has living quarters and cargo holds? Or so big it can hold that ship inside of one of it's MANY docks while housing hundreds of single man fighters? Or a space station so big it looks like a moon? In episode 9 a "Droid Smith" retrieves data from C3-P0s head by using a blow torch on his circuitry, looking into the hole he made, and then telling everyone about the data he is looking at... as opposed to like... plugging him into a monitor with a USB. How come every single door in SW, including secure military installations, have no key pads or manual locks, but do have a weird little spinny lock at the exact height of every astromech droid in the galaxy. that can be opened by any astromech droid in the galaxy because that is a big part of what they have been purpose built to do?

Nothing in SW makes any sense if you " take even one second to think about it". If hyperspace ramming is the one time you stopped to take a second I am sorry that you never spent any time thinking about this thing you apparently like.

 Lance845 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
And yet, hyperspace ramming has been explored in various ways within various forms of Star Wars media going back basically to the beginning. Hell, Han has a line of dialog in A New Hope that alludes to the very concept.

It isn't a new concept within the lore, that you and most audiences seem unfamiliar with it is more of a you problem than a him problem.

The vast majority of the audience for the SW movies has never engaged with anything other than the movies, and maybe some video games. It's hardly the audience's problem that hyperspace ramming invalidates the threat of the Death Stars according to the information they are given in those movies. That one scene in Ep8 makes the entirety of the climax to ANH feel completely pointless if you take even one second to think about it, while also making the Empire out to be a bunch of complete idiots for even thinking about developing the Death Star in the first place. Thankfully their idiocy is matched by the Rebellion not just firing a capital ship at the thing as soon as they get the chance. If most audiences are unfamiliar with it, as you claim, it's the job of the filmmakers to explain it sufficiently so that it makes sense rather than leaving loads of people pointing out it's ridiculous. Yes, Han has a throwaway line about jumping straight into a planet or a star but the assumption I think most people made about that line was that it would lead to the destruction of the ship, not the object they were jumping into. I think it's a huge stretch to say that line is specifically about hyperspace ramming.

It's not just the death star that makes no sense. In SW if you think about anything for long enough none of it makes sense.

Droids exist. C3P0 is fluent in over 6 MILLION forms of communication. Why the feth does R2D2 beep? Why does someone need to manually input hyperspace coordinates? Why don't ships have AIs? How come the targeting computers are a 2 color screen like a hand held game and watch? Why isn't the computer handling targeting? Why do individuals have to sit in gun turrets and pull triggers on a ship so big it has living quarters and cargo holds? Or so big it can hold that ship inside of one of it's MANY docks while housing hundreds of single man fighters? Or a space station so big it looks like a moon? In episode 9 a "Droid Smith" retrieves data from C3-P0s head by using a blow torch on his circuitry, looking into the hole he made, and then telling everyone about the data he is looking at... as opposed to like... plugging him into a monitor with a USB. How come every single door in SW, including secure military installations, have no key pads or manual locks, but do have a weird little spinny lock at the exact height of every astromech droid in the galaxy. that can be opened by any astromech droid in the galaxy because that is a big part of what they have been purpose built to do?

Nothing in SW makes any sense if you " take even one second to think about it". If hyperspace ramming is the one time you stopped to take a second I am sorry that you never spent any time thinking about this thing you apparently like.

You typed all that out but it really doesn't point out any issues at all. All that is standard to the universe as a whole, what he points out is something that breaks something of that universes rules given the knowledge presented to the viewer through the various media presented to the average viewer. So your argument really doesn't help you in the way you think it does.

 Lance845 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
And yet, hyperspace ramming has been explored in various ways within various forms of Star Wars media going back basically to the beginning. Hell, Han has a line of dialog in A New Hope that alludes to the very concept.

It isn't a new concept within the lore, that you and most audiences seem unfamiliar with it is more of a you problem than a him problem.

The vast majority of the audience for the SW movies has never engaged with anything other than the movies, and maybe some video games. It's hardly the audience's problem that hyperspace ramming invalidates the threat of the Death Stars according to the information they are given in those movies. That one scene in Ep8 makes the entirety of the climax to ANH feel completely pointless if you take even one second to think about it, while also making the Empire out to be a bunch of complete idiots for even thinking about developing the Death Star in the first place. Thankfully their idiocy is matched by the Rebellion not just firing a capital ship at the thing as soon as they get the chance. If most audiences are unfamiliar with it, as you claim, it's the job of the filmmakers to explain it sufficiently so that it makes sense rather than leaving loads of people pointing out it's ridiculous. Yes, Han has a throwaway line about jumping straight into a planet or a star but the assumption I think most people made about that line was that it would lead to the destruction of the ship, not the object they were jumping into. I think it's a huge stretch to say that line is specifically about hyperspace ramming.

It's not just the death star that makes no sense. In SW if you think about anything for long enough none of it makes sense.

Droids exist. C3P0 is fluent in over 6 MILLION forms of communication. Why the feth does R2D2 beep? Why does someone need to manually input hyperspace coordinates? Why don't ships have AIs? How come the targeting computers are a 2 color screen like a hand held game and watch? Why isn't the computer handling targeting? Why do individuals have to sit in gun turrets and pull triggers on a ship so big it has living quarters and cargo holds? Or so big it can hold that ship inside of one of it's MANY docks while housing hundreds of single man fighters? Or a space station so big it looks like a moon? In episode 9 a "Droid Smith" retrieves data from C3-P0s head by using a blow torch on his circuitry, looking into the hole he made, and then telling everyone about the data he is looking at... as opposed to like... plugging him into a monitor with a USB. How come every single door in SW, including secure military installations, have no key pads or manual locks, but do have a weird little spinny lock at the exact height of every astromech droid in the galaxy. that can be opened by any astromech droid in the galaxy because that is a big part of what they have been purpose built to do?

Nothing in SW makes any sense if you " take even one second to think about it". If hyperspace ramming is the one time you stopped to take a second I am sorry that you never spent any time thinking about this thing you apparently like.

A lot of that stuff is consistent in-universe though. Much of it is due to the OT being made in the 70s and retaining that 70s-futuristic aesthetic through all the movies. Yes, it's weird that SW doesn't have voice-controlled computers or touch screens but that's the established feel of the universe. Things like no automated targeting is there because so much of the action was based on WW2 dogfighting, so having a turret and single-man fighters engaging each other at visual range is all part of that. You still need to be careful not to take it too far as I feel they did with the Resistance bombers which break immersion because the in-universe explanation for them doesn't make sense. All of this is consistent in-universe and part of what makes the SW universe what it is.

When you then introduce a new thing in the 8th film that completely invalidates important parts of the previous material that's a problem because it's internally inconsistent.

Slipspace wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
And yet, hyperspace ramming has been explored in various ways within various forms of Star Wars media going back basically to the beginning. Hell, Han has a line of dialog in A New Hope that alludes to the very concept.

It isn't a new concept within the lore, that you and most audiences seem unfamiliar with it is more of a you problem than a him problem.

The vast majority of the audience for the SW movies has never engaged with anything other than the movies, and maybe some video games. It's hardly the audience's problem that hyperspace ramming invalidates the threat of the Death Stars according to the information they are given in those movies. That one scene in Ep8 makes the entirety of the climax to ANH feel completely pointless if you take even one second to think about it, while also making the Empire out to be a bunch of complete idiots for even thinking about developing the Death Star in the first place. Thankfully their idiocy is matched by the Rebellion not just firing a capital ship at the thing as soon as they get the chance. If most audiences are unfamiliar with it, as you claim, it's the job of the filmmakers to explain it sufficiently so that it makes sense rather than leaving loads of people pointing out it's ridiculous. Yes, Han has a throwaway line about jumping straight into a planet or a star but the assumption I think most people made about that line was that it would lead to the destruction of the ship, not the object they were jumping into. I think it's a huge stretch to say that line is specifically about hyperspace ramming.

Han invalidates concept of planetary shielding in Ep7, concept of hyperdrive in Ep5, hyperdrive is again invalidated in Ep1, in same scene which invalidates turbolasers...lets not even mention all the weird stuff in Ep9.

All of these movies have weird crap out of nowhere written just for the 'plot needs it' or 'it looks cool'.

Star Wars fans were all saying they wanted the films to connect to the tv shows, novels, comics, etc. Rian Johnson did that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Frankly speaking though, nothing about it breaks any of the universes rules, we are told very early on in A New Hope that hyperspace:

1. Isn't easy and requires precise calculations.
2. Its possible for an object traveling through hyperspace to collide with objects in the real world.

Its stated clearly that without precise calculations its possible to collide with an object. It seems safe to assume that this is reciprocal - purposefully colliding with an object likely also requires precise calculations itself (i.e. its not easy to do so intentionally, its a long shot with "one in a million" odds). This should be fairly obvious - if you need precise calculations to use hyperspace travel to get to a specific destination, and in this case your specific destination is, in fact, a collision with a particular object, then it stands to reason that you need precise calculations to collide with that particular object.

Its also safe to assume that if colliding with an object is damaging to the object in hyperspace, its also probably damaging to the object that the hyperspace vehicle has collided with. I don't know of any situations in the real world where a collision isn't mutually harmful to both objects in question, I don't see why it would be any different in Star Wars - if you assumed differently that seems to be *your* problem. While its true that Han didn't mention anything about causing damage to the objects being collided with, its pretty clear that hes less concerned about the destruction of something else than he is with the destruction of himself and his ship - i.e. it would be out of character for him to bring it up, and also irrelevant since he'd be dead at that point anyway. Its also safe to assume that its some level of "common knowledge" or "unspoken assumption" in-universe as well, and thus doesn't need to be stated.

So, anyway, the precedent for it existed from the very get-go, and was indeed explored on multiple occasions over the 40 years since then - just not necessarily on film. Contrary to insistence otherwise, it hardly invalidates the threat of the Death Stars or whatever - again, one in a million odds of success (probably even lower than that, lets not take that too literally), requires precise calculations, etc. etc. etc. Holdo got lucky, I don't know why thats hard for people to accept - its no different than how Luke got lucky dumping his proton torpedoes down the exhuast shaft without a targeting computer (another "one in a million" shot - Han Solo says as much, or did you forget?).

We can also reason here that proximity played a role - Holdo and the Raddus weren't all that far away from the Star Destroyer, fair to say that the proximity played a role in increasing the probability of success here. In this case, the explanation for why the Death Stars were safeguarded is pretty self-explanatory - they were built with significant armament and defensive capabilities in order to specifically fend off attacks by capital ships - the audacity of the Rebel attempt to destroy it was that they used starfighters when they instead expected to be attacked by a fleet of warships. I would go one step further here and ask, what do you reckon a fleet of rebel cruisers would have been able to accomplish against something as massive as the Death Star using conventional attacks by missiles, torpedoes, and turbolasers? Perhaps the concern of a hyperspace ramming attack was always there from the get go.

And the reason they didn't just use droids or AI to launch hyperspace ramming attacks en mass using asteroids with cheaply made hyperdrives against anything and everything in order to play the probability game? Holdo tapped into the force in much the same way Luke did in order to successfully time and aim this one-in-one million shot, something that droids or AI would not be able to pull off in a pinch, even if they weren't vaporized by defensive fire on the way in. Oh, and also its well established that the Rebellion/good guys view droids as sentients/people and it would be amoral and unethical for them to send them on suicide missions in that manner.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

We hear Luke claim to 'bullseye womp rats' in the desert. And we've also seen that sandpeople like to hang out in the desert. We don't know that he hasn't been shot at while flying before. We do know he's done some shooting while flying before.

Shooting what amounts to a big rabbit and being in war are entirely different things. Yavin is Luke's first actual battle in a war. It's a military engagement the likes of which he has only ever heard stories about. Not only does he handle himself in that situation in a way no reasonable person should be able to, he is the single most important person in the entire conflict and delivers the fatal blow that turns the tide of the battle and the rebellions place in the galaxy.

Lets not pretend that ANYTHING in Luke's history prepares him in any capacity for that engagement or explains how cool he handles every aspect of it, including watching friends and comrades die in explosions as their ships smash into the side of a moon sized battle station.

The basic argument that Rey is a mary sue or that 7-9 do a bad job of setting up the skills of it's characters is terrible. SW has always had characters just learn random gak in the moment the plot demanded and the explanations for why have always been flimsy at best.

Shusssssssssssssssssh dont take away my nine year old who can drive space racecars and therefore also knows how to drive spaceships i'm here to complain about how the orphan girl who's obviously been fighting with close combat weaponry her entire life can somehow win a space swordfight against a whiny bitch boy who ran a half-mile after being shot center mass with a laser crossbow wielded by a sasquatch that instantly and spectacularly killed every other person it was aimed at the whole rest of the movie.

 Lance845 wrote:
It's so easy to assume malice despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's also easy to point the finger at 8 despite all the bull crap mystery box foundation laid out by 7.

8 is the only movie in the new trilogy that had ANYTHING interesting to say.

Yeah, I thought the idea that heroism and greatness can come from anyone...that it's not a matter of being born into the right family...is a wonderful, modern, relevant message. I'm not sure if JJA ever even ponders what his films are trying to say. He's generally good at action and pacing and beats and set pieces and all that stuff. But sometimes there isn't much 'there' there.

The mystery box stuff wasn't just BS because it was empty calories that screwed over the directors to come. It also spawned lots of theorizing by fans, who were bound to end up disappointed. Either the obvious answer was true, making everything...obvious. Or their fave theory wasn't true, leading to a letdown. Fans walked into TLJ with a HUGE set of expectations. And in a way, I guess RJ did almost gleefully pop those expectation balloons. But they shouldn't have been there in the first place...not like that. SW doesn't need mystery boxes to get people talking about it or coming to the next one.

JJ's ego must be out of control.

 gorgon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's so easy to assume malice despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's also easy to point the finger at 8 despite all the bull crap mystery box foundation laid out by 7.

8 is the only movie in the new trilogy that had ANYTHING interesting to say.

Yeah, I thought the idea that heroism and greatness can come from anyone...that it's not a matter of being born into the right family...is a wonderful, modern, relevant message. I'm not sure if JJA ever even ponders what his films are trying to say. He's generally good at action and pacing and beats and set pieces and all that stuff. But sometimes there isn't much 'there' there.

The mystery box stuff wasn't just BS because it was empty calories that screwed over the directors to come. It also spawned lots of theorizing by fans, who were bound to end up disappointed. Either the obvious answer was true, making everything...obvious. Or their fave theory wasn't true, leading to a letdown. Fans walked into TLJ with a HUGE set of expectations. And in a way, I guess RJ did almost gleefully pop those expectation balloons. But they shouldn't have been there in the first place...not like that. SW doesn't need mystery boxes to get people talking about it or coming to the next one.

JJ's ego must be out of control.

Ironically in the lead up to the release of The Force Awakens, JJ Abrams gave an interview in which he discussed the democratization of the Force and how growing up it was understood to him and his friends (and indeed yours truly) that the Force was available to anyone and things like bloodlines and midichlorian counts, etc. were irrelevant: https://www.slashfilm.com/jj-abrams-interview-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

Peter: George Lucas based a lot of the saga on Joseph Campbell’s The Hero’s Journey, and we’ve seen a lot of “the chosen one” stories and the Star Wars prequels I think made the “chosen one” prophecy even more specific because Force/Jedi-potential was linked to having a high midi-chlorian count, making it seem like you had to be born into being a Jedi. Does The Force Awakens explore the possibility that anyone can have the power? Know what I mean?

J.J. Abrams: I do. I will just say this. I would never presume to question anything George Lucas says is canon in Star Wars. And our job was not to negate or undo… A lot of people who are critics, and I respect all of them, of Star Trek, the ones that we did, said we destroyed what they loved and negated everything. And we worked hard to clarify that we are not saying that our Star Trek over-rides a thing of the original Star Trek — it was a parallel timeline. I never wanted to negate canon that fans held so dear. And because I love Star Wars and have for too many years…

Peter: But I think, for me, as a kid watching Star Wars, part of the power of those stories were that I could be Luke Skywalker.

J.J. Abrams: Yes, and what I’m getting to is having said all that and meaning it — I don’t want to presume over-write or change what George says the rules are. I’m not someone who quite understands the science of the Force. To me Star Wars was never about science fiction — it was a spiritual story. And it was more of a fairytale in that regard. For me when I heard Obi-Wan say that the Force surrounds us and binds us all together, there was no judgement about who you were. This was something that we could all access. Being strong with the Force didn’t mean something scientific, it meant something spiritual. It meant someone who could believe, someone who could reach down to the depths of your feelings and follow this primal energy that was flowing through all of us. I mean, that’s what was said in that first film! And there I am sitting in the theater at almost 11 years old and that was a powerful notion. And I think this is what your point was, we would like to believe that when gak gets serious, that you could harness that Force I was told surrounds not just some of us but every living thing. And so, I really feel like the assumption that any character needs to have inherited a certain number of midi-chlorians or needs to be part of a bloodline. It’s not that I don’t believe that as part of the canon, I’m just saying that at 11 years old, that wasn’t where my heart was. And so I respect and adhere to the canon but I also say that the Force has always seemed to me to be more inclusive and stronger than that.

So either JJ didn't understand the meaning of the words coming out of his own mouth in terms of what it would mean for the story, or perhaps the "Reys parents" mystery box was really meant to be empty the entire time.

 gorgon wrote:

The mystery box stuff wasn't just BS because it was empty calories that screwed over the directors to come. It also spawned lots of theorizing by fans, who were bound to end up disappointed. Either the obvious answer was true, making everything...obvious. Or their fave theory wasn't true, leading to a letdown. Fans walked into TLJ with a HUGE set of expectations. And in a way, I guess RJ did almost gleefully pop those expectation balloons. But they shouldn't have been there in the first place...not like that. SW doesn't need mystery boxes to get people talking about it or coming to the next one.

JJ's ego must be out of control.

I think that even 'mystery box' might be giving too much credit for JJ. For example lets take Snoke: one of the most talked about aspect of TFA afterwards was identity of Snoke. Who was he and how he was related to rest of the timeline? Because TFA revealed very little of him. Surely there must be more to it?
But the way JJ and co. created him was simply that they picked one from a series of different models studio had created for them. 'Lets take this guy, he looks the scariest'. That's all there ever was. Not any kind of backstory or characterization was ever written for him. His role was just to be there and look evil and say evil things.

But as much as I enjoy crapping over JJ, the final responsibility must land on the producer, Kennedy. Not because of some daft 'feminist agenda' but because all the oversight she ever did was to hire 3 directors and tell them to 'make me 3 blockbusters'.

But as much as I enjoy crapping over JJ, the final responsibility must land on the producer, Kennedy. Not because of some daft 'feminist agenda' but because all the oversight she ever did was to hire 3 directors and tell them to 'make me 3 blockbusters'.

Im a staunch Kathleen Kennedy apologist, but this is 100% on the money. This is where she dropped the ball. Everything indicates that she took a "we'll do it live" approach to the sequel trilogy in an attempt to replicate some of the approach used during the making of the original trilogy, and it blew up big time.

Both films are awful and kinda meld into one another, so it's difficult to say which one 'wins' here.

But, on the other hand, TLJ killed Luke, my fav SW character, so feth that movie.