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I mean on the paint pots it says "Conforms to ASTM" which is a safety regulator for products, the paint is only sold to people aged 12+ as it says on the pots, and it has the Euro safety stamp or whatever. So yes, GW is very much following the law with regards to product safety.
I've generally found that 12-plus-year-olds don't need to be told not to eat paint either but hey what do I know.

 Gert wrote:
I mean on the paint pots it says "Conforms to ASTM" which is a safety regulator for products, the paint is only sold to people aged 12+ as it says on the pots, and it has the Euro safety stamp or whatever. So yes, GW is very much following the law with regards to product safety.
I've generally found that 12-plus-year-olds don't need to be told not to eat paint either but hey what do I know.

Conforms to ASTM D4236 means the product meets certain labelling requirements. It doesn't mean its "safe". There's plenty of materials that conform to ASTM D4236 that could make you drop dead.

An MSDS contains concise, easy to follow and practical information. Labelling regulation does not.

How about the 30+ years GW has been operating as a company? You think that in those 30+ years, for 26 of which it's been public, GW has been selling harmful materials without any regulator finding out?
Christ, I know you hate GW but now you're really grasping at straws.

 Gert wrote:
How about the 30+ years GW has been operating as a company? You think that in those 30+ years GW has been selling harmful materials without any regulator finding out?
Christ, I know you hate GW but now you're really grasping at straws.

I am not grasping at anything.

For your information GW sells many hazardous materials. The issue is they don't provide accessible MSDS because they do the bare minimum

Someone shared an MSDS on the OOP mechrite red on a forum. They obtained it by asking mail order at that time. In that MSDS it suggested seeking medical advice if ingested. The MSDS also suggested wearing eye protection. Geeeeeeeeee whizzzzzz....if only we could have easy access to these documents you could wake up to yourself.

It is telling when a company doesn't provide MSDS on its website. That company doesn't give a toss about its consumers. The streaming service is one thing but providing MSDS.

Just because you think this isn't important, doesn't mean it is not important.

It's way more important than a crappy streaming service. It concerns consumer rights to accessible information.

Sorry, but not sorry. GW does a gak job and needs to do better.

 GoldenHorde wrote:
In that MSDS it suggested seeking medical advice if ingested. The MSDS also suggested wearing eye protection.

You shouldn't need to be told not to eat paint or huff paint fumes as a teenager. I was told not to eat paint when I was in nursery.
The spray cans also contain instructions on how to operate them which says to use them in well-ventialted areas (i.e. outside), not to breathe the fumes, to wear protective gloves and to rinse your eyes if anything gets in them and to seek medical attention if you feel unwell.
When you buy the products in a GW store the staff legally cannot sell the products to you if you are underage and if you are then they will inform the adult accompanying you of the risks.
If you've drunk a pot of paint then that's on you.

I looked it up and I even think GoldenHorde is right.

But come on man, do you really need somebody to tell you to seek medical advice if you swallow paint?

If the topic is so important to you, I'm sure you have already contacted GW in the past and got a copy of their MSDS, seeing as they are legally forced to provide one, right...?

It wouldn't possibly be just a rant on the internet for something that you couldn't give gak about but it is another point to attack an entity you dislike, right...?

 Gert wrote:

 GoldenHorde wrote:
In that MSDS it suggested seeking medical advice if ingested. The MSDS also suggested wearing eye protection.

You shouldn't need to be told not to eat paint or huff paint fumes as a teenager. I was told not to eat paint when I was in nursery.
The spray cans also contain instructions on how to operate them which says to use them in well-ventialted areas (i.e. outside), not to breathe the fumes, to wear protective gloves and to rinse your eyes if anything gets in them and to seek medical attention if you feel unwell.
When you buy the products in a GW store the staff legally cannot sell the products to you if you are underage and if you are then they will inform the adult accompanying you of the risks.
If you've drunk a pot of paint then that's on you.

And still.... I'm sure many people lick their pincels?

Also, the GW staff might very well be legally obligated to not sell products to underage clients, but if so... nobody has told them. I know because I worked there 5 years. No training about that, at all, no guidelines about what to sell to whom.

 Gert wrote:
How about the 30+ years GW has been operating as a company? You think that in those 30+ years, for 26 of which it's been public, GW has been selling harmful materials without any regulator finding out?
Christ, I know you hate GW but now you're really grasping at straws.

things change over time, I have been working with some materials that were considered save for 20 years and over night being rated as poisonous and the reason why no one in the department died in those 20 years was that we have strict safety procedures no matter how dangerous a material is

by selling some materials companies are forced by law to handle you an MSDS on the first order if the materials are harmful
some hardware stores have colours and cleaning chemicals looked in as the store need to "inform" you first about the stuff in the MSDS before they can sell it

I think if you want to talk about health and safety and paints/glues and such perhaps its best to start a separate thread on the subject.

 Albertorius wrote:
And still.... I'm sure many people lick their pincels?

which should be only done with clean ones anyway, not with colour on it

but than there are those workers in Switzerland with tongue cancer because they licked the brushes and years later it was confirmed that the paint glowing in the dark on watches did so because it was radioactive

 Albertorius wrote:
And still.... I'm sure many people lick their pincels?

And they usually get told not to. What's the point here?

 kodos wrote:
things change over time, I have been working with some materials that were considered save for 20 years and over night being rated as poisonous and the reason why no one in the department died in those 20 years was that we have strict safety procedures no matter how dangerous a material is

That is workplace safety which is similar but different to product safety.

by selling some materials companies are forced by law to handle you an MSDS on the first order if the materials are harmful
some hardware stores have colours and cleaning chemicals looked in as the store need to "inform" you first about the stuff in the MSDS before they can sell it

Yes, I am aware of this.

Just as a side note BTW, neither Warlord Games nor the Corvus Belli online stores have direct access to MSDS documents. So either all three companies are breaking the law, or more likely they aren't and GoldenHorde is grasping at straws to justify their hatred of GW.

 Gert wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
And still.... I'm sure many people lick their pincels?

And they usually get told not to. What's the point here?

People do stupid gak all the time? Without needing to be a toddler?

And hey, they might not if they actually knew it was dangerous. But thing is, even to staffers, we were told GW paints are absolutely safe for everyone. We were specifically told to say "well, don't drink the pots, of course, because that's stupid, but it's absolutely safe and you won't have any issue if you use to lick your brushes". That is literally from a GW trainer, told to us.

The "eating paint" retort, is, simply, a little bit of shaming and a lot of itsyourownfault-ing.

Please explain to me how it's the fault of GW if someone eats their paint. As in not just "whoops I tried to get a point on my brush with my mouth (also something you're told not to do BTW) and I've got a little bit of paint in my mouth".
I'm not even swinging for GW here, I'm just expecting basic levels of common sense.

 Gert wrote:
Please explain to me how it's the fault of GW if someone eats their paint. As in not just "whoops I tried to get a point on my brush with my mouth (also something you're told not to do BTW) and I've got a little bit of paint in my mouth".
I'm not even swinging for GW here, I'm just expecting basic levels of common sense.

Oh, then "licking your brushes, wich have paint" is not "eating paint"? OK. It's a matter of degrees, them. How much paint, then is needed to "eat" in order for it to be dangerous? Because the spiel from GW is, I repeat "don't drink them because it's stupid, but they're absolutely A-OK". Meaning, from the POV of GW's training, eating paint is ok and GW paints are 100% safe.

I was there, you know. I got told that. By GW.

To clarify, the idea transmitted to us was not "don't eat paint because it's dangerous in quantities, but licking brushes is OK because there's too little". It was "don't eat paint because people don't do that. But you could".

I'm as critical of GW as the next person, but even I think that 'GW will provide you with an MSDS if you ask for it' is a weird criticism.

Plenty (probably the vast majority) of companies who sell paint/glue don't bother to supply MSDS forms which hardly anybody will read without request.

If only GW had put the safety documentation on their website, I never would have eaten all this superglue!

 Gert wrote:
I'm not even swinging for GW here, I'm just expecting basic levels of common sense.

well, there are different levels of products out there, the basic, like finger paints must be kids save so that nothing happens of they eat it
same with food colours that are expected to be eaten but still have warnings of not using too much

and if a paint product is advertised for teens, it is meant to be save for teens and "common sense" is different for non adults
so selling a paint were you need to be an adult to have the common sense of not eating it to kids or teens is something different

but we also live in a society were you need to warn people that the coffee might be hot (I am from Austria, here you would sue the bar if the coffee is cold not the other way around)

than looking on the Vallejo paint bottles, they are marked as "non toxic, without heavy metals" were the Army Painter bottles have "non-toxic in case of eye contact rinse with water" on them
the GW battles are blank without any further information on them, which would mean "kids save"

 Gert wrote:

 GoldenHorde wrote:
In that MSDS it suggested seeking medical advice if ingested. The MSDS also suggested wearing eye protection.

You shouldn't need to be told not to eat paint or huff paint fumes as a teenager. I was told not to eat paint when I was in nursery.
The spray cans also contain instructions on how to operate them which says to use them in well-ventialted areas (i.e. outside), not to breathe the fumes, to wear protective gloves and to rinse your eyes if anything gets in them and to seek medical attention if you feel unwell.
When you buy the products in a GW store the staff legally cannot sell the products to you if you are underage and if you are then they will inform the adult accompanying you of the risks.
If you've drunk a pot of paint then that's on you.

Let's apply your anti-intellectualism in your own flippant style of delivery;

You are allergic to certain paints. I guess you had it coming because you shouldn't be told which paints you might be allergic to
You should invoke your psychic powers to obtain this information


GW doesn't give a toss. End of story.
Here's an on demand (free btw) example of someone who shouldn't be told to wear a mask when working with resin.




There's your 30 years gold standard right there being negligent in setting a bad example of health and safety.

Dumbing down the issue isn't helping you. Common sense would be putting MSDS on your website.

@Albterorius


@kodos


@GoldenHorde

I've said all I want to say on this so I will read replies but won't be discussing it further.

 Gert wrote:

I was there, you know. I got told that. By GW.

To clarify, the idea transmitted to us was not "don't eat paint because it's dangerous in quantities, but licking brushes is OK because there's too little". It was "don't eat paint because people don't do that. But you could"

And I was told by staff not to lick my brushes and told when I was 4 years old not to eat paint.
The sticking point here isn't that it's up to GW to tell you not to eat paint, it's that GoldenHorde seems to think that GW should be telling people not to eat paint.

I don't really see how one thing precludes the other, as I said. I've been that staff.

The sticking point is that GW trains their staff to "know" that GW paints are absolutely and perfectly safe, no matter what you decide to do with them. Which seems to contradict the actual MSDS of, at least, Mechrite Red (that suggested seeking medical advice if ingested and wearing eye protection). Maybe stop trying to frame it as "don't be a 4 year old".

If you Google 'deionised water msds', the first result says that if you ingest it, you should 'Rinse mouth thoroughly with water. Give plenty of water to drink'.

That unsafe water, dude...

 Lord Damocles wrote:
If you Google 'deionised water msds', the first result says that if you ingest it, you should 'Rinse mouth thoroughly with water. Give plenty of water to drink'.

That unsafe water, dude...

Interestingly enough, it doesn't tell you to go seek medical help ^^. Wait, it does xD, "if discomfort continues" (but not as first reaction).

Apparently it can cause irritation?

You can easily find the relevant product MSDS on thearmypainter, vallejo and scale 75 websites.

But I guess special snowflake GW supersoldats know not to eat paint.

I'm as critical of GW as the next guy, specially as of late, but I have to say some people on dakka have the weirdest of reasons to bash GW, specially over, and over again.

And I don't even know why, is not like GW is lacking of things to critizise about it.

 Gert wrote:

@kodos

Spoiler:

 kodos wrote:

and if a paint product is advertised for teens, it is meant to be save for teens and "common sense" is different for non adults
so selling a paint were you need to be an adult to have the common sense of not eating it to kids or teens is something different

It isn't adult levels of common sense to not eat paint.

than looking on the Vallejo paint bottles, they are marked as "non toxic, without heavy metals" were the Army Painter bottles have "non-toxic in case of eye contact rinse with water" on them
the GW battles are blank without any further information on them, which would mean "kids save"

I've not had any non-GW paints for a very long time so I can't comment on the first part. The second part is nonsense, however. The paints all say 12+ so clearly the product is not intended for children and should not be given to them.

nothing on mine, just 12ml and conforms to ASTM D-4236

 Lord Damocles wrote:
If you Google 'deionised water msds', the first result says that if you ingest it, you should 'Rinse mouth thoroughly with water. Give plenty of water to drink'.
That unsafe water, dude...

yes, deionised water is harmful and unsafe, getting that far that it breaks your skin open if you wash yourself with it more often (starting with irritations but if you continue)

because it lacks all non water ions you get an aggressive osmotic reaction so that it "sucks out" ions from your body, adding non-deionised water to dilute it and compensate

 kodos wrote:
nothing on mine, just 12ml and conforms to ASTM D-4236

Can you check when it was produced?
I got a pot from 2019 that says 12+ and one from 2012 where it is lacking it. (Both were purchased this year )

2012-2015, all are newly bought last year

Do you all want to take this absolute farce of an argument elsewhere?

Back to the topic, only one new animation this week is poor, it also doesn't make much sense. 3x episodes of hammer and bolter on release then nothing?

It already looks as if they were too ambitious and have launched too soon, and/or want to start recouping some of the investment already, not sure it will bring in many new subscribers over this week if they were sitting on the fence.

Given I still think it is good value for the year with the miniature, voucher and what is in the vault, I will re-iterate what I said many pages back.... They will need to pony up with a miniature of the quality of the Vindicare EVERY year at this rate to justify the annual price with this sort of release rate.

I think it will be the case of, have it for the year.... 6-9 months off, then jump on and binge for a few months before stopping again, without any of the miniature benefits. A lot like I will be doing with Disney plus, I'll wait for the next season of Mando, at which point I'll also have Loki, Falcon and the winter soldier, bad batch etc etc to also watch and binge, then jump off again till the next Mando or something of similar draw for me.

Not sure GW will be able to keep Warhammer TV running if they have around 10-20k subscribers, with a core number of that who jump in and out of subscriptions.

I think the mini quality will keep up.
I'm willing to give the service a break with regards to content, restrictions might have been axed in England but we don't know the exact policy GW is following in its offices. Hang Out and Hobby still seems to be broadcast from the presenter's homes so I'm assuming that the team is running on reduced studio time.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

It already looks as if they were too ambitious and have launched too soon, and/or want to start recouping some of the investment already, not sure it will bring in many new subscribers over this week if they were sitting on the fence.

Given I still think it is good value for the year with the miniature, voucher (snip)
Not sure GW will be able to keep Warhammer TV running if they have around 10-20k subscribers, with a core number of that who jump in and out of subscriptions.

Well 1 animation, 1 battle report, 1 tut will not fill me with a weeks worth of content or persuade me that this channel will ever have enough to justify its existence.

I think the voucher and mini are artificial ways to mitigate the price and are not asked for.
If I pay for a streaming channel I want a good streaming channel. Not minis.

I think it's worth it. As someone who enjoys reading lore and catching up on content I may have missed in the past- this was a no-brainer for me. Warhammer Visions 1-30, White Dwarf 450-459 with more expected to come, and some older lore releases that were probably $10-25 all free. I'm an anime fan so the animation is not really up to the quality that I enjoy, BUT the stories have been very interesting. Especially the first two; of the first two definitely the second. I don't like how GW does 40k Orks so there was no chance I was going to enjoy(subjectively) the last animation from Hammer and Bolter.

I think the content I have most enjoyed so far has been the Masterclass series. The two videos hit two things I'm probably the weakest and her explanations/teaching style were easy for me to follow. I would argue those were two of the best painting videos I've seen from GW in a long time. As someone who contributes to a painter's Patreon, I'm not going to compare a channel dedicated to painting to GW, but Masterclass exceeded my expectations - she even used wet pallets.


Sidenote - are manicures not a thing in GB or maybe they are all shut down due to the pandemic? My one production complaint about the masterclass video is her hands were gnarly. If I'm producing a video guide and long scenes are focused on my hands/fingers I'm making sure that individual has at least clean-looking hands. The guys seem to do this much better than the women at GW. Duncan always had super clean-looking hands, but the first lady and this woman do not.