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 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...

T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.


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Racerguy180 wrote:
What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

Anything that relies on your opponent being bad isn't really good. Plus, the math isn't that hard.

And name some weapons that T5 Orks are more durable against than Marines. Go ahead.

You miss understand. In an army where nothing is lower than T5 (IE the way I play necrons) you are forced to shoot str 4 weapons at them.

Also - marines should be more durable than orks - by a wide margin. Because orks do A LOT more damage than marines do. A lot more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to list weapons that are better against Marines than Orks, Xeno?

I can think of a small number, but not a lot.

Grav cannons/ Dessie cannons/ Heavy bolters/ Splinter cannons/ blight launchers / battle cannons

Just off the top of my head mind you. These weapons kill a lot more points of marines than they do orks when they fire. PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...

T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:
What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

Anything that relies on your opponent being bad isn't really good. Plus, the math isn't that hard.

And name some weapons that T5 Orks are more durable against than Marines. Go ahead.

You miss understand. In an army where nothing is lower than T5 (IE the way I play necrons) you are forced to shoot str 4 weapons at them.

Also - marines should be more durable than orks - by a wide margin. Because orks do A LOT more damage than marines do. A lot more.

Answer the question, Xeno. What weapons are less effective against T5 Orks than Marines?

And, more damage... Right...

At 8 Points, a Boy puts out 2 shots at 18" hitting on a 5+ (average same as RR1s due to DDD) and 2 attacks in melee on a 3+. All S4. All no AP.
At 20 points, an Intercessor puts out 3 shots at 24" and 2-3 swings in melee, all on a 3+. All S4, sometimes AP0, sometimes better.

So a Boy gets (assuming they shoot twice and fight twice) 1.56 hits in shooting and 2.67 in melee. 4.23 total.
An Intercessor gets (assuming they shoot twice and fight twice (once on charge), despite having better range) 4 hits in shooting and 3.33 hits in melee. 7.33 total.

That is 1.89 points per hit on the Boy.
That is 2.73 points per hit on the Intercessor.

Which, yeah, the Ork is killier... Assuming they're never targeted. Assuming they make it to melee despite being slower. Assuming the Marine has no buffs, which are absolutely everywhere in the Dex.

An Intercessor is a unit with great durability, good shooting, and good melee.
An Ork Boy is a unit with crap durability, bad shooting, and great melee. They SHOULD do more damage, if they can reach their target unmolested.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...

T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:
What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

Anything that relies on your opponent being bad isn't really good. Plus, the math isn't that hard.

And name some weapons that T5 Orks are more durable against than Marines. Go ahead.

You miss understand. In an army where nothing is lower than T5 (IE the way I play necrons) you are forced to shoot str 4 weapons at them.

Also - marines should be more durable than orks - by a wide margin. Because orks do A LOT more damage than marines do. A lot more.

Answer the question, Xeno. What weapons are less effective against T5 Orks than Marines?

And, more damage... Right...

At 8 Points, a Boy puts out 2 shots at 18" hitting on a 5+ (average same as RR1s due to DDD) and 2 attacks in melee on a 3+. All S4. All no AP.
At 20 points, an Intercessor puts out 3 shots at 24" and 2-3 swings in melee, all on a 3+. All S4, sometimes AP0, sometimes better.

So a Boy gets (assuming they shoot twice and fight twice) 1.56 hits in shooting and 2.67 in melee. 4.23 total.
An Intercessor gets (assuming they shoot twice and fight twice (once on charge), despite having better range) 4 hits in shooting and 3.33 hits in melee. 7.33 total.

That is 1.89 points per hit on the Boy.
That is 2.73 points per hit on the Intercessor.

Which, yeah, the Ork is killier... Assuming they're never targeted. Assuming they make it to melee despite being slower. Assuming the Marine has no buffs, which are absolutely everywhere in the Dex.

An Intercessor is a unit with great durability, good shooting, and good melee.
An Ork Boy is a unit with crap durability, bad shooting, and great melee. They SHOULD do more damage, if they can reach their target unmolested.

Have no issue with them having more damage - they always have - They just buffed their damage and durability by a dice pip each on a d6. That is also fine if the points are right but the points are going to have to be much higher than most orks will want to pay...hate to break it to ya

Compare this new ork boy to a flayed one or a geensteller. I think youll find the comparison quit favorable for the ork. These units cost 13/14 respectively.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Grav cannons/ Dessie cannons/ Heavy bolters/ Splinter cannons/ blight launchers / battle cannons

Just off the top of my head mind you. These weapons kill a lot more points of marines than they do orks when they fire. PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.

Grav Cannons, okay. That's one-tell me, how many Grav Cannons do any army but Marines have?
Disintegrators too. Again, a unique to one army weapon, and one that I don't see taken anymore very often.
Heavy Bolters, if all three shots hit, kill one Marine. They kill 1.5 Orks. So that's wrong.
Splinter Cannons are even worse! They kill three-fourths of a Marine, while killing 1.5 Orks.
I'm unfamiliar with Blight Launcher stats, so I'll refrain from comment on that.
Battle Cannons kill, assuming 6 hits, 4 Orks. But only 2-3 Marine, depending on damage rolls.

And any weapon has AP-1, you say? Care to take a gander at Nurgle Daemons?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Grav cannons/ Dessie cannons/ Heavy bolters/ Splinter cannons/ blight launchers / battle cannons

Just off the top of my head mind you. These weapons kill a lot more points of marines than they do orks when they fire. PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.

Grav Cannons, okay. That's one-tell me, how many Grav Cannons do any army but Marines have?
Disintegrators too. Again, a unique to one army weapon, and one that I don't see taken anymore very often.
Heavy Bolters, if all three shots hit, kill one Marine. They kill 1.5 Orks. So that's wrong.
Splinter Cannons are even worse! They kill three-fourths of a Marine, while killing 1.5 Orks.
I'm unfamiliar with Blight Launcher stats, so I'll refrain from comment on that.
Battle Cannons kill, assuming 6 hits, 4 Orks. But only 2-3 Marine, depending on damage rolls.

And any weapon has AP-1, you say? Care to take a gander at Nurgle Daemons?

I plan on running 2 full devastator squads with them with my Ultras Full infantry list - it is literally the best weapon option in the army - that and multi meltas.
Battle cannons are flat 3 damage now - confirmed in the sisters codex.
I didn't even get into plasma weapons....Which are extremely common. Or autocannons...Extremely common.

You can't kill 1.5 of an ork dude. This is why rounding was invented. To give you a better idea of actual outcomes.
Hate to break it to you. There are a lot more grav cannons on tables right now than their are nurgle daemons.

While the Question was adressed towards Xeno one has to admit that the overcharged plasma profile (S8, -3, D2) needs 1.44 hits to kill a T4 W2 3+ Marine, but 1.5 hits to kill a T5 W1, 6+ Ork. Similarly Meltas (S8, -4, D6) need 1.4 hits vs. Marines and 1.5 vs. Boyz (but why are you shooting melta on boys???).

But the "problem" is that while there are very few weapons that are more efficient in killing T4 W2 3+ than they are in killing T5 W1 6+, there are tons of weapons where it is the other way around. Notably everything that does not pay premium for AP or multiple damage. Just looking at Imperial guard you need 3.6 lasgun/flamer/frag grenade/CC/Wyvern hits to kill an ork boy but 18 (12 for the flamer) to kill a Marine.

Edit: and no, until we get our codex the IG battle cannon is Dd3 not D3

Edit 2: note that the thought on "weapons more effective in killing boys" was intended on a per model, not a per point basis as that was how I understood the question

 Pyroalchi wrote:
While the Question was adressed towards Xeno one has to admit that the overcharged plasma profile (S8, -3, D2) needs 1.44 hits to kill a T4 W2 3+ Marine, but 1.5 hits to kill a T5 W1, 6+ Ork. Similarly Meltas (S8, -4, D6) need 1.4 hits vs. Marines and 1.5 vs. Boyz (but why are you shooting melta on boys???).

But the "problem" is that while there are very few weapons that are more efficient in killing T4 W2 3+ than they are in killing T5 W1 6+, there are tons of weapons where it is the other way around. Notably everything that does not pay premium for AP or multiple damage. Just looking at Imperial guard you need 3.6 lasgun/flamer/frag grenade/CC/Wyvern hits to kill an ork boy but 18 (12 for the flamer) to kill a Marine.

Edit: and no, until we get our codex the IG battle cannon is Dd3 not D3

Just use the sisters one then.

apart from IG lasguns en mass - no one is really having much issue killing marines anyhow.

Seriously? Do you think IG players just saying "my battle cannons are D3 now because sisters have them too" will be accepted?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Grav cannons/ Dessie cannons/ Heavy bolters/ Splinter cannons/ blight launchers / battle cannons

Just off the top of my head mind you. These weapons kill a lot more points of marines than they do orks when they fire. PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.

Grav Cannons, okay. That's one-tell me, how many Grav Cannons do any army but Marines have?
Disintegrators too. Again, a unique to one army weapon, and one that I don't see taken anymore very often.
Heavy Bolters, if all three shots hit, kill one Marine. They kill 1.5 Orks. So that's wrong.
Splinter Cannons are even worse! They kill three-fourths of a Marine, while killing 1.5 Orks.
I'm unfamiliar with Blight Launcher stats, so I'll refrain from comment on that.
Battle Cannons kill, assuming 6 hits, 4 Orks. But only 2-3 Marine, depending on damage rolls.

And any weapon has AP-1, you say? Care to take a gander at Nurgle Daemons?

I plan on running 2 full devastator squads with them with my Ultras Full infantry list - it is literally the best weapon option in the army - that and multi meltas.
Battle cannons are flat 3 damage now - confirmed in the sisters codex.
I didn't even get into plasma weapons....Which are extremely common. Or autocannons...Extremely common.

You can't kill 1.5 of an ork dude. This is why rounding was invented. To give you a better idea of actual outcomes.
Hate to break it to you. There are a lot more grav cannons on tables right now than their are nurgle daemons.

Okay. I'll round, as per math.

It kills 2 Orks. That's even worse for you.

And Autocannons, you mean that weapon that wounds Marines and Orks the same, completely denies the Orks their save but still gives Marines a 4+?

Don't forget about cover either! That halves damage taken by MEQs against anything AP0, while it offers Orks a paltry 20% reduction.

Moreover, I'd like to ask what exactly is setting-breaking about Orks being tough. They're sentient fungus made entirely for war and combat, by a species far more powerful than the Eldar and humanity.

Edit: Also, Xeno, I'd like to ask-are you talking from a tournament competition perspective, or a casual game perspective? Because they're pretty different.

Xenomancers wrote:

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Racerguy180 wrote:
What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Seriously? Do you think IG players just saying "my battle cannons are D3 now because sisters have them too" will be accepted?

I'm not sure. When GW updated the Heavy bolter for the SM's they said all heavy bolters were now the new stats and If I remember they said every weapon updated in a codex would update for every codex with the same weapons. so, aside from damage for the SoB Battle cannon are they otherwise the same?
If they are some one should find out if they updated.

I can't help but think that arguing with Xeno is akin to a game of football where one team pick up the goalposts, start running and never stop.

At first, the bewildered opponents kick the ball after them, trying to score a goal in spite of the moving goalposts.

After a while, however, the ball has long since been lost and now the opposing team have been reduced to merely keeping the speeding goalposts in sight.

 warhead01 wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Seriously? Do you think IG players just saying "my battle cannons are D3 now because sisters have them too" will be accepted?

I'm not sure. When GW updated the Heavy bolter for the SM's they said all heavy bolters were now the new stats and If I remember they said every weapon updated in a codex would update for every codex with the same weapons. so, aside from damage for the SoB Battle cannon are they otherwise the same?
If they are some one should find out if they updated.

Well, it's called a Castigator Battle Cannon. If a weapon doesn't have the exact same name, GW hasn't made good on that promise (...in some cases, they did update similar weapons with different names, but it's 100% arbitrary). Eldar and Tau Fusion Guns still have the old melta rule. Eldar Bright Lances didn't get updated when Dark Lances did (they're the same weapon.)

 Xenomancers wrote:

You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.

You could call it inflation but I think most everyone was happen when their heavy infantry weren't getting dropped by single boltguns on a failed save. This was a big complaint in former edditions - as space marines not really feeling like space marines in game over the past several edditions.

The idea here is that space marines were not treated as heavy infantry before...when that is what they actually are. Same thing for Terminators honestly.

That's weird, my Nobz didn't gain a 3rd wound to compensate for the fact that they've had more wounds than Space Marines since...wow...20+ years?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 RaptorInMotion wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Was it stupid stat inflation when Marines went to 2 Wounds?

In my opinion, no. It should be all relative. A grot should have 1 wound because its the lowest number we can get, and is also one of the flimsiest beings in the setting. Theres obviously others. A marine by comparison could take twice as much as a grot, so 2 wounds is a logical step. I mean, Ork Boyz should also have 2 wounds too, but this would be in a different 40k edition.

It would be like sigmar...Where a Savage ork in sigmar is equal to a chaos warrior or sigmarine. They also pay about the same points...In 40k they cost around 3x less than a marine.

Xeno, I love your selective stats. You are the poster boy for why I read "Lying With Statistics" because you just basically use every trick that you can to manipulate the data to prove a false notion.

An Ork boy is 8ppm, a Marine is 18. that is 10ppm more. 2x8 = 16. 18-16= 2 So when you say 3x what you mean is 2.25x I can forgive you for exaggerating but its ironic because it always seems to go in 1 specific direction.

Also, that Marine is at the moment 5x more durable vs 1dmg weaponry than the ork boy where as previously, when the Marine was 2.5x more expensive it was only about 3x more durable. So as the editions have gone by the Marine has become cheaper in comparison to an ork boy while also becoming significantly more durable. As far as damage output, the Marine is actually more dangerous now than ever before as well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I just have a real understanding of the community. A good portion is literally just marine haters like you are. They even sneak into marine fan pages to talk about marines being nerfed. Funny you don't go onto say a DE or CWE fan page and see them talking about nerfing their own units - it is a scam. Marines are currently bottom tier of the newly updated armies. Orks currently win more than marines. Yet...were going to buff orks now against an army that is supposed to be their hardest counter? LOL. It is all a sham.

The change is unnecessary and obviously just a cash grab to get marine players to buy heavy intercessors and ork players being forced to by new ork beast snaggy boys. Just so we can all wound each other on 4's again. An absolute joke. Orks are as tough as custodians. Makes a lot of sense actually not.

You have a real understanding of the community you say? keeping in mind Jidmah just pointed out you were in the minority here and you agreed. So when you say understanding you mean you understand the Marine Fan boy club who hate having to play against factions on equal footing as Marines?

Not sure what your insinuating, apparently I sneak into Marine fan pages? ....not even sure how to respond to that one but ok. As far as DE/CWE....um, if you want to do a deep dive you can go back to earlier editions and I was just as adamant about Tau and Eldar being broken, I was a massive hater of the ridiculous 7th edition CWE codex...you know, the one you defended in a recent topic thread because you meta gamed as Eldar for a bit as well

As far as your nonsensical statement that Orkz win more games than Marines do, again you can only ever point to W/L rate but conveniently leave out Top 4 finishes.

In 2021 so far Orkz have a grand total of....10 Top 4 finishes in Majors/GTs. That is across all kultures. Marines on the other hand....

DA have 12
BT have 2
Blood Angels have 4
IH 1
Raven Guard have 1
Salamanders 2
Space Furries 7
Smurfs 3
Scars 5
Total: 38. So 3.8 or ALMOST 4x as many

I'll also gladly point out that DE are OP at the moment, I haven't played them in a tournament since their nerf but yeah, not hard to see that they are dominating right now, even though since January they only have a W/L rate of 31.43% https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

its...almost like W/L is a useless statistic used by those trying to push a narrative but know that if they include context it defeats their argument.

For those unaware of this long standing (bad) argument by Xeno, he thinks W/L rate is more important than top 4 finishes. Well, Since May, According to 40kstats, Drukhari have a 30.83% W/L rate. Meaning they win less than every 3rd game. 155 wins, 351 losses. In that same time period though they have 39! top 4 finishes. They have more Top 4 finishes than All factions of Marines combined since January. But according to xeno's that doesn't matter because their W/L is low

 Xenomancers wrote:

T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.

Ah, well if we are going to use feelings instead of stats than you are completely correct. Of course, those of us who actually want to discuss real balance as opposed to balance in the fantasy world of xenos will politely ignore your feelings.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Have no issue with them having more damage - they always have - They just buffed their damage and durability by a dice pip each on a d6. That is also fine if the points are right but the points are going to have to be much higher than most orks will want to pay...hate to break it to ya. Compare this new ork boy to a flayed one or a geensteller. I think youll find the comparison quit favorable for the ork. These units cost 13/14 respectively.

Marines were significantly less durable in 4th than they are now compared to Ork boyz. Marines are currently CHEAPER compared to ork boyz than they used to be. The Mechanics of the game have now changed in favor of MSU rather than horde (IE. Smaller engagement ranges in CC) Even with -1AP choppas it will take 4 orks swinging away to kill 1 Marine, 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds and -1AP against 3+ means 2dmg for 1 dead Marine. In 4th it was 3 Boyz, 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead Marine.

In 4th, 3 Ork boyz was 18pts to Kill a 15pt Marine. In 9th (assuming no points increase) it will be 32pts of Boyz to kill 18pts of Marine. Now, which is the better trade off for Marines? 18 to kill 15 or 32 to kill 18? I'll give you a hint, its not the 9th edition values

Also, its not a good argument to say "Ohh yeah...umm...well, look at these other horribly over priced, under performing units, orkz will be better than them!" especially since a standard intercessor can beat a standard genestealer in a CC fight

 Xenomancers wrote:
PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.

k, So lets see, a Big mek with KFF can realistically shield 1 full mob of boyz, So thats 240pts of Boyz plus a 60pt HQ unit (cheapest) so 300pts. To kill those 240pts of Boyz backed up by a 60pt HQ you will need 202.5 Bolt Rifle hits (S4-1AP). 202.5 is 135 hits, 45 wounds, 30 failed armor saves for 30 dead boyz.

202.5 Bolt rifle hits vs a Tac Marine is 135 hits, 67.5 wounds, 33.75 failed armor saves for 16.8 Dead Marines. Which is....drum roll please.....303.75pts of dead Marine. HOORAY 240pts of T5 boyz backed up by 60pts of HQ is 300pts and is MORE durable by 3.75pts than Space Marines! So you are correct Xenos, those boyz are literally 1.25% more durable vs AP-1 than Space Marines. And all it took was all 30 boyz hiding under the Big Mekz bubble. Oh, btw, if those Marines stay in cover...kind of like they do in most competitive games, its only 11.25 dead Marines which is only 202pts :( sad day.

Oh, and if you do take a Big Mek for a KFF and you want him to actually accomplish something in CC besides being a glorified Nob, you have to use the Big Mek in Mega Armor with KFF which is literally more than 2x the price so the math than swings back in favor of the Marines even if they don't hide in cover like they normally do

Racerguy180 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

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Racerguy180 wrote:
What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.

Not sure why it would break the setting that marines were T4 when they should be? Clearly they are tougher than a human being - they are 3x the size.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:
What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.

Not sure why it would break the setting that marines were T4 when they should be? Clearly they are tougher than a human being - they are 3x the size.

A GUO is easily 40X the size of a human, therefore they should have a Toughness of 20 or so, right?

 vipoid wrote:
I can't help but think that arguing with Xeno is akin to a game of football where one team pick up the goalposts, start running and never stop.

At first, the bewildered opponents kick the ball after them, trying to score a goal in spite of the moving goalposts.

After a while, however, the ball has long since been lost and now the opposing team have been reduced to merely keeping the speeding goalposts in sight.

I have not lost. Nor I have once changed my arguement. The most convincing argument for orks being T5 is - that "orks should be tougher than marines". Which that is certainly an opinion just not a very good one. A marine is over 1000 lb where an ork is 300lb. If anything the marine should be T5 and the ork T4. Based on simple physics.


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 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:
What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.

Not sure why it would break the setting that marines were T4 when they should be? Clearly they are tougher than a human being - they are 3x the size.

A GUO is easily 40X the size of a human, therefore they should have a Toughness of 20 or so, right?

IDK - what is his weight like in comparison to a Land Raider that has T8?

 Xenomancers wrote:

You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.

They DID? INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!

*aberrants spontaneously get wound buffs*

*tyranid warriors spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Wraithguard spontaneously get wound buffs*

*ogryn spontaneously get wound buffs*

*CSM spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Nobz spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Immortals spontaneously get wound buffs*

THANK YOU, XENOMANCERS, WE'RE CURED!!!!!!!

Probably already said somewhere but the Bits blown off and keep fighting element of Orks would have made more sense as increased wounds.

Marines should have the toughness/save and Orks should have gotten the extra wounds.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I have not lost. Nor I have once changed my arguement. The most convincing argument for orks being T5 is - that "orks should be tougher than marines". Which that is certainly an opinion just not a very good one. A marine is over 1000 lb where an ork is 300lb. If anything the marine should be T5 and the ork T4. Based on simple physics.

Ah yes, Physics, the thing that 40k is so famously based on.


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 Eldarain wrote:
Probably already said somewhere but the Bits blown off and keep fighting element of Orks would have made more sense as increased wounds.

Marines should have the toughness/save and Orks should have gotten the extra wounds.

Except that, thank god, certain stat decisions are based around 40k needing to be a game that you can practically play and not be miserable, and Marines being W1 made everyone miserable, and Orks being W2 have historically only ever made everyone miserable.

What if tracking wound counts on nob bikers, but EVERY ork model? Fantastic, I love it, I'll buy three!

How much of a marines weight is armor (represented by his 3+) and how much is body?

And how many vital organs does a Marine have?

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.

They DID? INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!

*aberrants spontaneously get wound buffs*

*tyranid warriors spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Wraithguard spontaneously get wound buffs*

*ogryn spontaneously get wound buffs*

*CSM spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Nobz spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Immortals spontaneously get wound buffs*

THANK YOU, XENOMANCERS, WE'RE CURED!!!!!!!

WG got 3 wounds Im pretty sure in 8th edd.
Warriors apparently had 3 wounds to begin with.
CSM oblitz got more wounds right? Possesed too
Nob bikes have what? 3 wounds? MAN 3 wounds?
Paladins went to 3 wounds?
Terms go to 3 wounds from 1 lol.
That all happened in 8th.

I think it is fair to say they fcked up with standard astatres and csm old marines from the start - they made the primaris which were going to replace the old but then they decided not to.

GW clearly had a philosphy with the game rules to increase wounds on next to anything - your post is a willful misrepresentation of my point and the reality of wounds stat going up on the majority of almost every unit in the game. Forget just heavy infantry. The majority of units in the game saw wounds increasing. AKA intellectual dishonesty. Disgusting. Like I seriously have to argue and waste my time convincing you people of facts.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
How much of a marines weight is armor (represented by his 3+) and how much is body?

And how many vital organs does a Marine have?

Keep in mind I've gone with the lower ball estimate. Between 500 and 1000 is a marines base weight without armor - I'll give you 500lb.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'll give you 500lb.

So around the same as, or less than, a Boy of roughly the same size.



Inb4 convoluted explanation for why Marines finally living up to the fluff is a good thing because the tabletop has never done them justice but Orks finally living up to the fluff is bad because reasons.

I like how your list of “Units that got more wounds” has five entries (ignoring Warriors since they’ve had three wounds for a long while and didn’t improve in 8th) has three Marine units. Sure, one is Chaos, but still Marine.

I wouldn't really count Obliterators personally, they got a big redesign in terms of what that unit "is" when the new model came out and are a lot more on the heavy side of heavy infantry than they used to be. The only non-marine heavy infantry to have gotten a significant change in statline is the Necron Immortal going to T5, which obviously Xeno is fine with because he plays that army.

That brings about a silly question.

Do Necrons having armor saves break the setting?

Think about it, when you shoot and hit a basic Necron warrior, what gets hit first? That's right, its skin.

Now sure, its skin might be made of metal, but that's not armor per se, and nominally would be better handled by Toughness.

In this way Necron Immortals totally make sense as T5, just as long as we fix their armor save to be 7+.

/s

SemperMortis wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:

A 50/50 chance represents this more than enough don't you think? Certainly a bolter is much more likely to put down an ork than a lasgun, and this is not remotely reflected in this new rules change

To put it bluntly? No. In 4th edition a Marine had 1 shot from his boltgun at 24' range and 2 shots at 12' but only if he stood still that turn. That Marine was 2.5x more expensive than the Ork boy and 300% more durable vs S4 incoming fire. In 9th edition taht Marine has 2 shots from 24 if he stands still and 2 shots from 12 no matter what, he also gets AP on his boltgun depending on what turn it is. That Marine is now only 2.25x More expensive than the Ork boy and is now more than 500% more durable to incoming S4 fire.

So when you say an Ork boy being able to tank a bolter half the time should be enough, well no. Why? Because GW has decided that Space Marines needed ridiculous levels of buffs so that anyone who wants any hope of competing against them requires buffs to compensate. Now if your argument is purely from a fluff perspective than absolutely. But if we are going to play that game than my Ork boyz should be fielded in mobz of 100 and should cost 1ppm each. I have a sneaking suspicion that players don't actually want a fluffy representation of the battlefield otherwise the board would be flooded turn 1 LOL.

As far as the Boltguns should be better at killing Orkz than Lasguns, sure. But let me ask you this, Shouldn't an Auto-cannon be better at killing T8 Vehicles than a Heavy Bolter? I can make a hundred similar comparisons in regards to weapons that aren't accurately represented on the battlefield. That has nothing to do with inherent imbalance and more to do with the Toughness/Weapon strength charts we use in the game right now.

 Banzaimash wrote:
Don't see the need to call marine players entitled, especially when many like myself also collect orks, and other armies too. My main gripe with what you've said is the mentality that everything needs its 'time in the sun', which is a whole hearted endorsement of power creep, as this can only be achieved by constant buffs.Rather than resetting the game to a more reasonable level, we end up with this crescendo of FOTM and codex creep, which is barely tempered if at all by FAQs and minor nerfs. In two additions we'll be seeing 3W guardsmen or something foolish at this rate.

Well the problem here Banzai is that there are a couple of Marine players on these boards who constantly complain every single time any other faction gets any kind of buffs...actually they complain if any color of Marine that isn't their color gets a buff. And when they have an obviously broken unit, they label any criticism of said unit as players just hating on Marines because they hate Marines or some such nonsense. I have literally witnessed players defending Pre-nerf Aggressors and the new Melta weapons as well as eradicators.

In regards to "resetting the game"...I wouldn't wish that on anyone. If GW really wants to reset the power balance to a lower level than they need to pull out hte stops and do actual hardcore playtesting and only release the new rules as Index 10th edition. In 7th they tried to "tone down" the power creep by giving Orkz the absolute worst codex in 7th edition, it was so bad that by the end of 7th edition a host of Ork players had given up playing because they stood no chance. Jidmah, among many others did this if I am not mistaken.

You can't start an edition and than randomly lower the power level for factions without lowering it for all. Hell, in 7th edition I had players offer me 200-400pt handicaps because they wanted to play their faction without purposefully taking the worst units they had .

I generally agree with your assessment with regards to Toughness and other buffs, I feel it highlights the issue with power creep (for marines as in this example) and a weak ruleset. In terms of a reset, an index system as you describe was definitely more what I had in mind, and I wish more people would root for that than continue to endorse codex creep and FOTM. Finally I appreciate what you're saying about marine players fully, I've seen specific instances of that kind behaviour here and elsewhere, I was simply suggesting one not paint with such a broad brush.

pothocboots wrote:
That brings about a silly question.

Do Necrons having armor saves break the setting?

Think about it, when you shoot and hit a basic Necron warrior, what gets hit first? That's right, its skin.

Now sure, its skin might be made of metal, but that's not armor per se, and nominally would be better handled by Toughness.

In this way Necron Immortals totally make sense as T5, just as long as we fix their armor save to be 7+.

/s

From what little ive read of Necron appearances in novels, they sort of act like Glass Cannons that can get back up. Pretty fragile and fairly easy to put down, but its gonna get back up and disintegrate you, so probably best to get out of there!

pothocboots wrote:
That brings about a silly question.

Do Necrons having armor saves break the setting?

Think about it, when you shoot and hit a basic Necron warrior, what gets hit first? That's right, its skin.

Now sure, its skin might be made of metal, but that's not armor per se, and nominally would be better handled by Toughness.

In this way Necron Immortals totally make sense as T5, just as long as we fix their armor save to be 7+.

/s

Alternate possibility - given that Necrons are effectively walking armour, does their having a toughness characteristic break the setting?

 RaptorInMotion wrote:

From what little ive read of Necron appearances in novels, they sort of act like Glass Cannons that can get back up. Pretty fragile and fairly easy to put down, but its gonna get back up and disintegrate you, so probably best to get out of there!

I always thought that was because they are some of the slowest moving targets you could ask for. A person (or ork) sprinting at you full speed is a hard target to get a head shot on. A necron warrior slowly plodding forward is pretty much just target practice that fires back. And gets back up of course.