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Personally I am quite happy with the overall "buff" the army received with this dataslate. While I know it is definitely a mixed bag for units like the Exorcist (the indirect fire nerf, though I guess now I am actually glad I can choose to spend the CP for it or not) and straight nerfs to others like Sacresants, I believe this will be a general good for the army. I was a big VH player but I may actually try Ebon Chalice again now since Orders in general are getting this durability buff. I just hope Bloody Rose does not automatically become the go to again because now they gain durability in addition to damage.

Again, while ERJAK is being his usual pessimistic self (no offense I really do respect everything you say dude, you keep it real) I think these changes are going to overall make us better, even if we just get to the point where we are competing with Marines but at least we would both be at upper B tier (maybe actually low A again). Additionally I am legitimately wondering if, toward the very end of 9th, we will actually see a 2.0 codex for Sisters at this point. The amount of changes in these dataslates do at least warrant reprints of most of the codices that have received buffs/nerfs from this (or hopefully even reprinted pdf versions of the books) but the changes to upcoming sub factions like Iron Warriors in Chaos (my assumption is they will not be getting the "reduce AP -1 and AP -2 by 1" trait now and will instead get the Valorous Heart/Salamanders treatment) plus the SM 2.0 codex that is almost definitely getting released toward the end of this year is going to have at least Armor of Contempt in it along with the Salamanders change. Honestly, all of these rebalancing changes for the game just make me think that the codices that are getting the most "bugfixes" or "patches" just deserve some kind of reskin like a 2.0 book similar to the Space Marines favoritism.

I know I have brought this up before and I know that its unlikely, but between Novitiates, Armor of Contempt, Miracle Dice each turn now, the Valorous Heart change and of course just the basic points updates, there are MANY things in that codex that make it not even worth picking up at this point for the rules of the game. I know this can be said for plenty of armies, but at this point I honestly think every faction deserves some kind of reprint/2.0 book after Daemons and Imperial Guard get their updates.

Anyway, we will see what happens. I do think that now it is imperative that Sacresants return to 14 points (though I would accept 15) along with Dominions going back to 12 despite the slight durability buff. Everything else can stay where it is since Vahl is getting a buff from this too (though I would rather her be 270-275, her being more than the Avatar of Khaine just feels bad when she's just barely a match for him with the best of luck). I am also in agreement that Paragons may actually have a better role in the army now even without a 5++.

While I am upset that I will have more issues with Deathguard now because of their own increased durability, I think we are underestimating the power of these changes, and we will soon find that, with Custodes/Tau/Harlies brought back down to lower S tier, we actually have a real shot again at punching above our weight into upper A tier at least (despite being in upper B or lower A at best along with Marines and Chaos too I'm sure).

Deathguard is still too slow you beat them not by killing them but playing the mission

Custodes was already a win it just got easier

Tau/aeldari got nerfs comparative to us

Guard got buffs but wernt a problem and still arn't

marines really not a problem they have two few Models compared to us and we still output a whack got buffed roughly parallel the better player should win. Br repentia are still ap4. Paragon warsuits ap3 . Marines saving on 5 or 6 still go down

Crusher stampede - our toughest match before nids get buffed - this is probably a loss but with the extra durability I feel I can swap Blinding Radiance for rapturous Blows which should help. Still not confident I can win


I haven't got it all painted as my 4th Novitiate Squad is on my painting table but this would be my first draft post changes

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804594.page#11346645

GFdoubles wrote:
Personally I am quite happy with the overall "buff" the army received with this dataslate. While I know it is definitely a mixed bag for units like the Exorcist (the indirect fire nerf, though I guess now I am actually glad I can choose to spend the CP for it or not) and straight nerfs to others like Sacresants, I believe this will be a general good for the army. I was a big VH player but I may actually try Ebon Chalice again now since Orders in general are getting this durability buff. I just hope Bloody Rose does not automatically become the go to again because now they gain durability in addition to damage.

Again, while ERJAK is being his usual pessimistic self (no offense I really do respect everything you say dude, you keep it real) I think these changes are going to overall make us better, even if we just get to the point where we are competing with Marines but at least we would both be at upper B tier (maybe actually low A again). Additionally I am legitimately wondering if, toward the very end of 9th, we will actually see a 2.0 codex for Sisters at this point. The amount of changes in these dataslates do at least warrant reprints of most of the codices that have received buffs/nerfs from this (or hopefully even reprinted pdf versions of the books) but the changes to upcoming sub factions like Iron Warriors in Chaos (my assumption is they will not be getting the "reduce AP -1 and AP -2 by 1" trait now and will instead get the Valorous Heart/Salamanders treatment) plus the SM 2.0 codex that is almost definitely getting released toward the end of this year is going to have at least Armor of Contempt in it along with the Salamanders change. Honestly, all of these rebalancing changes for the game just make me think that the codices that are getting the most "bugfixes" or "patches" just deserve some kind of reskin like a 2.0 book similar to the Space Marines favoritism.

I know I have brought this up before and I know that its unlikely, but between Novitiates, Armor of Contempt, Miracle Dice each turn now, the Valorous Heart change and of course just the basic points updates, there are MANY things in that codex that make it not even worth picking up at this point for the rules of the game. I know this can be said for plenty of armies, but at this point I honestly think every faction deserves some kind of reprint/2.0 book after Daemons and Imperial Guard get their updates.

Anyway, we will see what happens. I do think that now it is imperative that Sacresants return to 14 points (though I would accept 15) along with Dominions going back to 12 despite the slight durability buff. Everything else can stay where it is since Vahl is getting a buff from this too (though I would rather her be 270-275, her being more than the Avatar of Khaine just feels bad when she's just barely a match for him with the best of luck). I am also in agreement that Paragons may actually have a better role in the army now even without a 5++.

While I am upset that I will have more issues with Deathguard now because of their own increased durability, I think we are underestimating the power of these changes, and we will soon find that, with Custodes/Tau/Harlies brought back down to lower S tier, we actually have a real shot again at punching above our weight into upper A tier at least (despite being in upper B or lower A at best along with Marines and Chaos too I'm sure).

In my defense, I was overwhelmingly positive about the original 8th edition codex (still one of the best books GW has ever written) and that only got better when the Multimelta change came in (even if I knew immediately we'd end up paying for it in the long run).

My problems really only started with the 9th edition dex where they just did some incredibly weird stuff for no reason. Like...tale of the stoic? Why? Who thought THAT was a good idea?

And now the powercreep combined with STILL catching nerfs is starting to wear big-time. Even when they do something to 'buff' us, it ends up having a backhand in it for no discernable reason. Why don't sacresants get AoC? They have a 4+ invul, it literally only effects AP1 and AP2, which was an ability they ALREADY HAD.

Many questionmarks.

ERJAK wrote:

GFdoubles wrote:
Personally I am quite happy with the overall "buff" the army received with this dataslate. While I know it is definitely a mixed bag for units like the Exorcist (the indirect fire nerf, though I guess now I am actually glad I can choose to spend the CP for it or not) and straight nerfs to others like Sacresants, I believe this will be a general good for the army. I was a big VH player but I may actually try Ebon Chalice again now since Orders in general are getting this durability buff. I just hope Bloody Rose does not automatically become the go to again because now they gain durability in addition to damage.

Again, while ERJAK is being his usual pessimistic self (no offense I really do respect everything you say dude, you keep it real) I think these changes are going to overall make us better, even if we just get to the point where we are competing with Marines but at least we would both be at upper B tier (maybe actually low A again). Additionally I am legitimately wondering if, toward the very end of 9th, we will actually see a 2.0 codex for Sisters at this point. The amount of changes in these dataslates do at least warrant reprints of most of the codices that have received buffs/nerfs from this (or hopefully even reprinted pdf versions of the books) but the changes to upcoming sub factions like Iron Warriors in Chaos (my assumption is they will not be getting the "reduce AP -1 and AP -2 by 1" trait now and will instead get the Valorous Heart/Salamanders treatment) plus the SM 2.0 codex that is almost definitely getting released toward the end of this year is going to have at least Armor of Contempt in it along with the Salamanders change. Honestly, all of these rebalancing changes for the game just make me think that the codices that are getting the most "bugfixes" or "patches" just deserve some kind of reskin like a 2.0 book similar to the Space Marines favoritism.

I know I have brought this up before and I know that its unlikely, but between Novitiates, Armor of Contempt, Miracle Dice each turn now, the Valorous Heart change and of course just the basic points updates, there are MANY things in that codex that make it not even worth picking up at this point for the rules of the game. I know this can be said for plenty of armies, but at this point I honestly think every faction deserves some kind of reprint/2.0 book after Daemons and Imperial Guard get their updates.

Anyway, we will see what happens. I do think that now it is imperative that Sacresants return to 14 points (though I would accept 15) along with Dominions going back to 12 despite the slight durability buff. Everything else can stay where it is since Vahl is getting a buff from this too (though I would rather her be 270-275, her being more than the Avatar of Khaine just feels bad when she's just barely a match for him with the best of luck). I am also in agreement that Paragons may actually have a better role in the army now even without a 5++.

While I am upset that I will have more issues with Deathguard now because of their own increased durability, I think we are underestimating the power of these changes, and we will soon find that, with Custodes/Tau/Harlies brought back down to lower S tier, we actually have a real shot again at punching above our weight into upper A tier at least (despite being in upper B or lower A at best along with Marines and Chaos too I'm sure).

In my defense, I was overwhelmingly positive about the original 8th edition codex (still one of the best books GW has ever written) and that only got better when the Multimelta change came in (even if I knew immediately we'd end up paying for it in the long run).

My problems really only started with the 9th edition dex where they just did some incredibly weird stuff for no reason. Like...tale of the stoic? Why? Who thought THAT was a good idea?

And now the powercreep combined with STILL catching nerfs is starting to wear big-time. Even when they do something to 'buff' us, it ends up having a backhand in it for no discernable reason. Why don't sacresants get AoC? They have a 4+ invul, it literally only effects AP1 and AP2, which was an ability they ALREADY HAD.

Many questionmarks.

I agree with you there sir, the 8th edition book was easy to be positive about, and there is no doubt you had relatively glowing things to say about it! I wish they would have just added the new units (and custom orders) to the 8th edition book (along with Core and other 9th edition structural changes of course). Tale of the Stoic is still the most ridiculous thing in our book and I am still unsure why it's even there. As for the Sacresants not getting AoC I disagree with it but I understand them trying to just standardize everything with a "storm shield" or equivalent piece of wargear. I think as soon as they drop back to 14 (or even 15) points (which I expect to happen next CA) they will be back to good instead of decent but now slightly overcosted.

I understand that GW has been doing questionable things throughout this edition, which is why I am such a proponent of a sort of "cleanup" once everyone has their 9th edition books. Whether its reprints of books, pdfs, 2.0 books, etc. every faction NEEDS to have all of these rules (and perhaps some relevant rewrites to other rules in their codex) in their actual books/pdfs and not just a catch all pdf otherwise players trying to get into the game will have no clue what is going on (in an even worse way than their current cluelessness due to all of this bloat).

What I honestly dislike from all this (more than the backhandedness of this update) is that the "ignore AP -1" custom order trait didn't get the Valorous Heart treatment. I wish that changed to a no reroll rule of some kind or just something else, since I was using that for my custom order rules when I wasn't bringing competitive Valorous Heart. It just feels like a redundant part of the book now unless you want to at least let Sacresants keep ignoring AP -1 but now the entire army can't reduce AP -2 and above right? Part of me wishes there was some loophole in there but giving up AoC to make Sacresants only ignore AP -1 doesn't feel worth it. I don't know, maybe there was a reason for them keeping it in there though, something we might be missing.

U02dah4 wrote:
Deathguard is still too slow you beat them not by killing them but playing the mission

Custodes was already a win it just got easier

Tau/aeldari got nerfs comparative to us

Guard got buffs but wernt a problem and still arn't

marines really not a problem they have two few Models compared to us and we still output a whack got buffed roughly parallel the better player should win. Br repentia are still ap4. Paragon warsuits ap3 . Marines saving on 5 or 6 still go down

Crusher stampede - our toughest match before nids get buffed - this is probably a loss but with the extra durability I feel I can swap Blinding Radiance for rapturous Blows which should help. Still not confident I can win


I haven't got it all painted as my 4th Novitiate Squad is on my painting table but this would be my first draft post changes

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804594.page#11346645

I haven't really been thinking about the non-marine matchups too much and most of my analysis thus far has been in a vacuum so let me try to broaden my thinking here.

Agree on deathguard. Special mention to plagueburst crawlers no longer being able to dig out repentia mines or hidden objective grabbers.We'll be lucky to actuall kill 1 full unit over the course of a game, but like you said, we don't really need to. A dogmata wins this matchup pretty much by itself with it's obsec ability.

I agree about custodes. I only played one match against full power custodes and to be honest, I lost, but I lost because of his shenanigans on the mission and the game only going to 3 turns. In a full game I would have tabled him at the rate we were going.

Honestly, Tau have always been a hard matchup, regardless of if the book was good or not. This is one where the sacresant nerf hits the hardest. I think here we'll see the AoC change cancel out some of the ground we made up in the nerfs. I still expect this to be a 70-30 match in Tau's favor. Still better than the 90-10 it was previously, though.

Don't know that much about new Eldar. I think we'll still get rolled by Harlequins and struggle with DE because of how much we struggle with fast hybrid damage armies, but I honestly don't have enough information about baseline eldar to have an opinion here.

Agreed on guard. None of the buffs really matter to anything but our tanks and I'm not worried about lasguns into rhinos.

Codex Marines I don't really care about. They're a lot tougher, but we don't use a lot of AP1 or AP2 as is and things like Bladeguard and Smashcaptains saw no meaningful bonuses either. Dreadnaughts are more of a problem, but it MIGHT get canceled out if marine players decide to avoid investing in invuls.

Dark Angels: This matchup gets real bad, real fast now. Deathwing Termies are basically unkillable and their massed stormbolters rip through our units, which AoC helps precisely not at all. Combine that with excellent melee and even outnumbering them doesn't really help for long.

Deathwatch. Interestingly, VH is actually much improved against deathwatch, essentially shutting off their army rule. Otherwise a fairly even matchup as they have more tools to do shenanigans than vanilla marines.

Black Templar: Fairly even matchup. What we do and what they do is very similar. The AoC I think gives them the edge now, though.

Blood Angels, Space Wolves: Not meaningfully different. We dodge most of their AoC and didn't really rely on Sacresants to win these. Not auto-wins by any means but didn't really get worse for us.

GK: Nightmarishly more difficult. GK were already the best marine faction, now we can't really kill their objective campers anymore. NDKs didn't get AoC so we're not totally boned but this got a lot harder.

Tsons: Also got a lot harder. We generally do good into psychic armies, but them being able to shrug off most of our damage is rough. Against mortal wound spam builds we'll be about the same but any shift into more conventional shooting/melee will go poorly for us.

CSM: Tougher by default but...meh. Still not afraid of them until their book drops.

Necrons, Orkz, Admech, Knights, Daemons, GSC: All armies that we didn't rely 100% on sacresants to beat. All armies AoC helps out against. Should be easier, if only just.

Nids: New codex nids are going to be EVERYONE'S boogeyman. If crusher stampede doesn't get the axe, we're basically a bye round. If it DOES, we have a better than average chance against the mortal wound spam builds. Still going to be rough.

You then need to stratify that that by meta

Because TS and DA and IF might be strong against us but I can't remember the last time I played any competatively

I also think tau isn't so bad its my most practiced against army and I was looking at 7-10/20 if I went first pre changes. That should be an easy win now if I go first and I'm confident I could beat a weaker tau player if I went second. (A good tau player going first might still be a loss but I will scrape more points).

New elder was insane but after the changes harlequins are taking a lot less stuff and we are getting better saves board wide. Prior I was looking at a 3/20 if they went first I know that will be a lot better now but I don't know how much till I get some games in

So yes crusher stampede and gk are probably the nightmare matchups but even then gk going second especially dreadknight spam is probably ok

Okay.....oddly specific tactics question:

I'm looking at trying a crusade force. So Power Level not Points, and for theme reasons I'm trying as pure as possible a Paragon Warsuit force.

This means that a lot of decisions are made for me - Her Holy Clankyness plus 3 squads of Paragons comes to 47 power, with no easy option to expand it, and then each suit can choose primary and secondary guns and melee weapon at will with no impact on cost.

The remaining 3 power going on an infantry model not in a warsuit seems odd, but I guess an imagifer would fit visually? Plus that gives me a CHARACTER who can earn experience - Morwen is awesome but a slight liability in crusade where named characters are locked out of earning battle honours, relics and sainthood boosts.

The big choices I'd have to make are the order conviction (s) and the ratio of melta weapons, maces and krak launchers.

Any advice?

locarno24 wrote:
Okay.....oddly specific tactics question:

I'm looking at trying a crusade force. So Power Level not Points, and for theme reasons I'm trying as pure as possible a Paragon Warsuit force.

This means that a lot of decisions are made for me - Her Holy Clankyness plus 3 squads of Paragons comes to 47 power, with no easy option to expand it, and then each suit can choose primary and secondary guns and melee weapon at will with no impact on cost.

The remaining 3 power going on an infantry model not in a warsuit seems odd, but I guess an imagifer would fit visually? Plus that gives me a CHARACTER who can earn experience - Morwen is awesome but a slight liability in crusade where named characters are locked out of earning battle honours, relics and sainthood boosts.

The big choices I'd have to make are the order conviction (s) and the ratio of melta weapons, maces and krak launchers.

Any advice?

Do you have a saint Potentia worth the title? That would be my first starting point.

As far as Nundams, Stormbolters are always better, stick with them. I'd give a litte over a third Melta to start.

Well, at 3 power, the only options are palatine, dialogous, hospitaler and imagifer.

Hospitaler is out as warsuits are VEHICLES, making her pretty useless.

The palatine aura is nice but duplicates Morwens.

Of the other two, both have their uses, and even if all the Saint archives is getting martyred and dropping a big xp dump, that's still nice.

I was thinking imagifer largely for visual reasons but I guess the dialogus might be good too - the hymn of shoot lots of bolters might be worth having in my back pocket.

Noted about storm bolters. I guess with so few models it's hard to argue with 18 stormbolters for crowd control. Three multimeltas and Morwens missile launcher is reasonably good antitank and then I guess its a choice between flamer and heavy bolter.

You may be better served waiting till games are more than 50PL before trying to buila an actual Canoness saint...

Why not a mortifier it would fit in with the t5

U02dah4 wrote:
Why not a mortifier it would fit in with the t5

Not an unamed character.

What do we think of

Devout fanaticism + either guided by emperors will or righteous suffering

instead of BR.

The +1 hit negates some (or is randomly better occasionally) than the +1A and the +1AP is less impactfull now.

U02dah4 wrote:
What do we think of

Devout fanaticism + either guided by emperors will or righteous suffering

instead of BR.

The +1 hit negates some (or is randomly better occasionally) than the +1A and the +1AP is less impactfull now.

I would argue that the better AP is more necessary now that many of our opponents will ignore some AP. I have, however, considered using DF with GBTEW as a kind of "middle ground" between BR's melee punchiness and AS's shooting prowess. The problem was that it would likely be the worst of both worlds.

In other news, one knock-on effect of the advent of Armor of Contempt is that our Arco-flagellants, once a decent unit that was just barely short of being competitive, are now basically useless. Marines and other Sisters will ignore their AP-1 weapons. Arcos are just destined to be one of those units that can't catch a break, it seems.

Assuming you up against an ap ignoring faction

The better ap does nothing on most of our squads because ap1 is ignored

That leaves

Some characters - No enough of a boost to become a real threat.

Paragon warsuits - A legitimate boost on Mace's but this is probably a one of And the swords don't really need it

Repentia - Ap2 was the sweetspot and ap3 is now that takes a 2+ down to a 4++ these already are ap3 - the extra ap helps in some targets but not many

Sacresants halberd- same as repentia
Sacresants- Mace's- legitimately benefit
Problem with both is I'm dropping them now there's no bodyguard

So no im not sure the ap is that helpful now

Huh, repentia also have armour of contempt, even though that save isn't going to come up that often.

U02dah4 wrote:
Assuming you up against an ap ignoring faction

The better ap does nothing on most of our squads because ap1 is ignored

That leaves

Some characters - No enough of a boost to become a real threat.

Paragon warsuits - A legitimate boost on Mace's but this is probably a one of And the swords don't really need it

Repentia - Ap2 was the sweetspot and ap3 is now that takes a 2+ down to a 4++ these already are ap3 - the extra ap helps in some targets but not many

Sacresants halberd- same as repentia
Sacresants- Mace's- legitimately benefit
Problem with both is I'm dropping them now there's no bodyguard

So no im not sure the ap is that helpful now

In your Novitiate builds, AP isn't really that relevant. The only thing you're really keeping BR for is Tear them down+ The double damage strat.

In Zephyrim heavy builds (which is kinda where I think the meta of Sisters builds is going just based of of not needing to paint 100+ infantry models) then the AP is hugely important. Going from 0 to 1 means nothing, going from 3 to 4 is HUGE. The number of 5++invul auras in marine armies is likely going to tank now that you need AP-4 to get them to a 6+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Huh, repentia also have armour of contempt, even though that save isn't going to come up that often.

Literally the only situation it matters is if you have cover and are going up against a weapon that is exactly Ap-1 AND ignores invuls.

I wouldn't underestimate some of the br strats the paragon one is rare but amazingly strong when it applies.

Good luck and yes if you don't have the models to begin with mine is a difficult painting task.

Do you have a list of what yours looks like?



I think your right I don't get enough from BR now ap1 is neutered

I am thinking the plus 1 to hit on charge and the can't be wounded on 1, 2's. For my build is probably best - novitiates perform equally to br under that but the extra survivability feeds into my board control

U02dah4 wrote:
I wouldn't underestimate some of the br strats the paragon one is rare but amazingly strong when it applies.

Good luck and yes if you don't have the models to begin with mine is a difficult painting task.

Do you have a list of what yours looks like?



I think your right I don't get enough from BR now ap1 is neutered

I am thinking the plus 1 to hit on charge and the can't be wounded on 1, 2's. For my build is probably best - novitiates perform equally to br under that but the extra survivability feeds into my board control

I'm still working on the ratios but I have a BR list and an OoML list that are very similar but function very differently due primarily to Junith.

OoML is:

Junith, Celestine, Morvenn, 3 basic BSS squads, 10 Sacresants with Halberds (might switch to hammers with this many Zephyrim but I have 10 halberds painted), Dogmata, Imagifier(Candela Scroll, Tale of the Warrior), Hospitaller (book) 3x10 Zephyrim with at least 1 Banner, 2x4MM Retributors with 1 Cherub each, 1 Anchorite Mortifier.

This is a 'rapid approach deathball' and relies a lot on having all 11 CP to pump into the Zephyrim and Retributors. I'm not sure if less melee for another squad of Rets is the better option atm though. I'm also toying with the idea of dropping something to fit in an Emperor's Grace Canoness to make the deathball even tankier against shooting. Interestingly, once I start to take casualties, the +1 to hit bonus starts making serious gains.

BR is:

Canoness (Blessed Blade, Rapturous Blows, Mantle, Blazing Ire), Celestine, Morvenn, 2 Basic BSS, 1 Novitiate, 10 Sacresants(same deal), dogmata, 4 Repentia, 5 Repentia, 2x10 Zephyrim, 1x9 Zephyrim, 2x4MM Retributors, Rhino with HK.

This one I'm less sure on. I'd really like to cut Morvenn for another Rhino and some more repentia support, but if the deathball is maintainable, I really want the reroll to wounds.

That said, I think this one might end up using a lot more deepstriking or cover humping than the OoML setup, so Morvenn might not be as useful as more target saturation.

If your going ooml you want the mortal wound sword cannonness its the best thing about ooml.

I'd probably drop the dogmata. While you want 2bss and 1 Novitiate regardless. Even if it's just because they are great bodyguard units now bodyguard doesn't work.

In both armies I'd consider swapping 1 mm rets for paragon warsuits

I think morvehn + celestine is too many points in characters but it's certainly interesting and now how I would play

U02dah4 wrote:
If your going ooml you want the mortal wound sword cannonness its the best thing about ooml.

I'd probably drop the dogmata. While you want 2bss and 1 Novitiate regardless. Even if it's just because they are great bodyguard units now bodyguard doesn't work.

In both armies I'd consider swapping 1 mm rets for paragon warsuits

I think morvehn + celestine is too many points in characters but it's certainly interesting and now how I would play

I've played the mortal wound sword canoness in about 6 games, she's gotten into combat maybe...twice? Without a transport or run and charge, she's just too slow. Emperor's Grace and/or Word of the Emperor is the only reason I'd bother with her and I'm not sure that beats out the Dogmata's Obsec ability.

Novitiates aren't worth it to me over BSS unless they're bloody rose or I'm bringing A LOT of them. To just sit on a backfield objective, they're about the same but the BSS give me 20pts to work with.

I run Celestine in every list. I've yet to find anything that does as much work as she does for the points. I generally drop Movenn first if I want to clear out character space.

I suppose that comes to difference in playstyle I keep her amongst the horde and use her as a countercharger never had a problem getting her in. She's just so damn effective at munching primaris/custodes especially if you are not takeing morvehn and can wl her properly

I'm not saying either morvehn or celestine is a bad choice their both good just the combination leads to about 30% of your points being on characters which is too much

U02dah4 wrote:
I suppose that comes to difference in playstyle I keep her amongst the horde and use her as a countercharger never had a problem getting her in. She's just so damn effective at munching primaris/custodes especially if you are not takeing morvehn and can wl her properly

I'm not saying either morvehn or celestine is a bad choice their both good just the combination leads to about 30% of your points being on characters which is too much

My thing is, no one ever charges my horde, or even gets close. Even Custodes matchups mostly play keep-away, focusing on whittling down my units with shooting (or in the case of Tau, obliterating my units with shooting) even when I played against pure deathwing, they didn't even attempt melee until three turns of stormbolter shooting had passed and just hoped to make up my objective lead on the back half of the game.

Into a very aggressive opponent, she's a ridiculous landmine of mortal wounds. That makes her ALWAYS a very strong consideration. Emperor's Grace alone is enough utility to potentially be worth cutting the dogmata and some upgrades.

I like the Morvenn Celestine combo in general, largely because of how is messes with opponent's perspective on how much damage they've done. "Oh, I killed all but a handful of the Zephyrim, I'm in the clear!' Doublefight Morvenn wastes 2 full squads. But I concede that Morvenn could be replaced by a Palantine in either list and that might potentially be more efficient.

U02dah4 wrote:
If your going ooml you want the mortal wound sword cannonness its the best thing about ooml.

I'd probably drop the dogmata. While you want 2bss and 1 Novitiate regardless. Even if it's just because they are great bodyguard units now bodyguard doesn't work.

In both armies I'd consider swapping 1 mm rets for paragon warsuits

I think morvehn + celestine is too many points in characters but it's certainly interesting and now how I would play

Dogmata win games, and honestly, I think herohammer is where sisters are heading. I'd look to add Stern to the lists...

Dogmata is an auto include for any infantry list as far as I'm concerned. Putting obsec on repentia/zephyrim alone and handing out +1 attack or immunity to psykers.

I also really have enjoyed Celestine so far. If you use her later in the game after burning out some of our opponents units she can be really hard to deal with.

 Dendarien wrote:
Dogmata is an auto include for any infantry list as far as I'm concerned. Putting obsec on repentia/zephyrim alone and handing out +1 attack or immunity to psykers.

I also really have enjoyed Celestine so far. If you use her later in the game after burning out some of our opponents units she can be really hard to deal with.

Dogmata isn't as big of a deal in OoML because they have an Obsec strat. Still really good though. Nothing like making a 10 girl unit of Zephyrim count as 20 obsec models.

ERJAK wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
Dogmata is an auto include for any infantry list as far as I'm concerned. Putting obsec on repentia/zephyrim alone and handing out +1 attack or immunity to psykers.

I also really have enjoyed Celestine so far. If you use her later in the game after burning out some of our opponents units she can be really hard to deal with.

Dogmata isn't as big of a deal in OoML because they have an Obsec strat. Still really good though. Nothing like making a 10 girl unit of Zephyrim count as 20 obsec models.

Fair enough - I still think having access to the hymns is pretty good for any order. Action and shoot aura is also occasionally useful.

Having just had my first game with the novitiate hoard and the new rules - so much better 19-1 vs necrons.

What's the common wisdom regarding combi-weapons on sisters superior?

-Guardsman- wrote:
What's the common wisdom regarding combi-weapons on sisters superior?

My assessment is that no upgrades (chainsword are fine).

If not then the next best option is Inferno pistols because you only need one to hit in the game and you pay them all back.

Combi weapons are just a shade to expensive in an objective holder