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U02dah4 wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
What's the common wisdom regarding combi-weapons on sisters superior?

My assessment is that no upgrades (chainsword are fine).

If not then the next best option is Inferno pistols because you only need one to hit in the game and you pay them all back.

Combi weapons are just a shade to expensive in an objective holder

For a conventional sister's build, the only time you would consider a combi-weapon in a competitive list is a combi-melta on a Retributor superior in a 4 Heavy Flamer loadout. 4 Heavy Flamer doesn't see much play since Admech Skiitary blobs dropped off (and now even less with AoC). Even then it was only a maybe because holy trinity is such a small damage boost in practice.

There ARE some gimmick-y meme builds that could use them though. Basically any build that uses regular Celestians sees you bring combi-meltas/plasmas to get actual damage out of those units.

Argent shroud footslog can potentially take a decent amount of combi-melta/combi-plasma without being...much worse.

Then there's the tried and (not very good) true 'max the melta' lists where you take 3 units of dominions with 5 meltas, 3 units of retributors with 4MM 1CM, and as many units of BSS you can fit with Melta, Combi-melta, multimelta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
Having just had my first game with the novitiate hoard and the new rules - so much better 19-1 vs necrons.

19 victories and 1 loss? Or did you guys only score 20 objective points total?

Sorry that's wtc scoring it's what I'm used to

https://worldteamchampionship.com/wtc-rules/

Most competitive events in Scotland use it

Score difference is standardised from the normal 100 point scoring system. So that equates to a 46-50 point difference between us I maxed out at 94. Can't remember his exact without checking but I would not have come close to that before I was scraping wins with a narrow margin

U02dah4 wrote:
Sorry that's wtc scoring it's what I'm used to

https://worldteamchampionship.com/wtc-rules/

Most competitive events in Scotland use it

Score difference is standardised from the normal 100 point scoring system. So that equates to a 46-50 point difference between us I maxed out at 94. Can't remember his exact without checking but I would not have come close to that before I was scraping wins with a narrow margin

Yeah, I think you cracked AoC before AoC was even a thing, tbh. Novitiates have such amazing board control and such a weight of dice that they're almost as good into terminators as they are into orks.

Zephyrim is still easier and cheaper to play (and paint) but it's much more feast and famine.

Hands down in terms of paint time yours is going to be quicker to have ready for the avg player.

And yes I agree your variance will be a lot higher which has its strengths and weaknesses depending on how an event is scored.

So, now that freeblades and armigers can be taken without breaking purity bonuses, what's the thought on knights?

We're clearly in a place where our shooting is truly abysmal if we have lists taking Paragon Warsuits as our primary shooting threat, so we're a prime candidate to benefit from knight support.

If they keep the 'counts as 5 obsec models' rule, Armigers might just end up being better than Paragons in 'flood of bodies lists' because you get more 'bodies per point'. Their output per point isn't fantastic though, so I don't know if they'd be great in kill-y lists. Moiraxes are better in shooting but again, still not world changing.

The melee variants of regular knights aren't really what we need either. We have the ability to get mediocre shooting with good melee, what we need is 'pretty good' shooting.

The Crusader has good enough shooting but is extremely expensive for it. If it can acts as enough of a distraction carnifex, it could really, really help us move the rest of the army up field.

Knight Castellan obviously has all of the juicy shooting we could ask for, but at more than 600pts...woof.

My money is on either Armigers or a Crusader being worth taking over some of our other options (maybe). A lot of that will depend on what exactly the full suite of knight strats are and the full freeblade ruleset.

Wait for the book we don't know statline points or even freeblade rules yet it makes it too difficult to evaluate.

Any of your evaluations of Crusaders etc are not gonna help when they could all change

I ran a castellan and sisters a lot in 8th. It certainly fills the hole of much needed long range oomph, even at 600+. We still get to cram a lot of bodies on the board with it.

U02dah4 wrote:
Wait for the book we don't know statline points or even freeblade rules yet it makes it too difficult to evaluate.

Any of your evaluations of Crusaders etc are not gonna help when they could all change

Chaos knights have been mostly spoiled and not a whole lot changed with them as far as their statlines and points go, so it's fair to look at the vanilla bodies and start thinking about what they need in terms of additional rules support in order to be better than whatever 400-600pts of our army we'd be giving up for them.

Anyone have any advice on our best way to chew through Tau shield drones? I find them an incredibly frustrating game mechanic. In fact anyone who can recommend particular tactics or units against them would be much appreciated. I know we're up against it in that match up.

RE: the knights (not tactics strictly speaking) I want to see what they do with the valiant to make it a viable alternative to the castellan. I think the huge conflagration cannon is possibly the most SoB thing in 40k.

I'm also wondering if a bum-rush (forgive the turn of phrase) of close combat armigers might be a play against some of the shooty armies out there, given their speed and relative resilience, thought it'll depend on their cost.

ArikTaranis wrote:
Anyone have any advice on our best way to chew through Tau shield drones? I find them an incredibly frustrating game mechanic. In fact anyone who can recommend particular tactics or units against them would be much appreciated. I know we're up against it in that match up.

RE: the knights (not tactics strictly speaking) I want to see what they do with the valiant to make it a viable alternative to the castellan. I think the huge conflagration cannon is possibly the most SoB thing in 40k.

I'm also wondering if a bum-rush (forgive the turn of phrase) of close combat armigers might be a play against some of the shooty armies out there, given their speed and relative resilience, thought it'll depend on their cost.

To deal with suits you want to force the Tau player to commit to taking saves on a suit then swap to meltas etc. For example shoot bolters or a castigator or something at the suit unit - they probably dont want to put low AP D2 weapons on a shield drone so will start taking it on a suit. Even if you don't wound the suit they still have to allocate saves to that model until it dies or the phase ends.

ERJAK wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Wait for the book we don't know statline points or even freeblade rules yet it makes it too difficult to evaluate.

Any of your evaluations of Crusaders etc are not gonna help when they could all change

Chaos knights have been mostly spoiled and not a whole lot changed with them as far as their statlines and points go, so it's fair to look at the vanilla bodies and start thinking about what they need in terms of additional rules support in order to be better than whatever 400-600pts of our army we'd be giving up for them.

We know there have been changes but not to all types of knight. So what is the armiger statline

Do we know what it's point cost is has it changed same for canis rex

We know they have to be freebladrs but have those rules been changed because they were not good before.

I know what I'm looking for is something better/more durable than paragon warsuits as the one Faction I can't deal with still is nids. (Having played them twice at this weekends tournament vs a weak player I was getting a slight loss and vs a strong I'm getting a big loss

The warsuits are great as a one of but not so much as a two because anything starting on the board gets slaughtered and one is not enough


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 Dendarien wrote:

ArikTaranis wrote:
Anyone have any advice on our best way to chew through Tau shield drones? I find them an incredibly frustrating game mechanic. In fact anyone who can recommend particular tactics or units against them would be much appreciated. I know we're up against it in that match up.

RE: the knights (not tactics strictly speaking) I want to see what they do with the valiant to make it a viable alternative to the castellan. I think the huge conflagration cannon is possibly the most SoB thing in 40k.

I'm also wondering if a bum-rush (forgive the turn of phrase) of close combat armigers might be a play against some of the shooty armies out there, given their speed and relative resilience, thought it'll depend on their cost.

To deal with suits you want to force the Tau player to commit to taking saves on a suit then swap to meltas etc. For example shoot bolters or a castigator or something at the suit unit - they probably dont want to put low AP D2 weapons on a shield drone so will start taking it on a suit. Even if you don't wound the suit they still have to allocate saves to that model until it dies or the phase ends.

Weight of attacks more than anything else just focus heavily on one or two areas of the board

Sisters list came in top 5 at Dallas Open. Looking at it...He definitely didn't win on the pure numerical strength of his list. Either that, or his opponents just let his repentia mulch their whole armies. I really need to watch the games. It's clearly a deathball, I just didn't ever imagine that 20 Retributors and a Castigator would somehow be core to a sister's deathball.

Detachment Command Cost

Order Convictions: Order: Bloody Rose

Stratagems +

Stratagem: Open the Reliquaries [-2CP]: 2x Additional Relics of the Ecclesiarchy

No Force Org Slot +

Repentia Superior [2 PL, 40pts]: Bolt pistol

HQ +

Canoness [5 PL, 100pts, -1CP]: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol, Relic: Chaplet of Sacrifice, Stratagem: Saint in the Making, Warlord Trait: Blazing Ire . Word of the Emperor

Morvenn Vahl [14 PL, 280pts]: Warlord

Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [3 PL, 55pts] . 4x Battle Sister: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Sister Superior: Chainsword . . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad [3 PL, 55pts] . 4x Battle Sister: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Sister Superior: Chainsword . . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad [3 PL, 55pts] . 4x Battle Sister: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Sister Superior: Chainsword . . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

Elites +

Death Cult Assassins [1 PL, 26pts] . 2x Death Cult Assassins: 2x Death Cult power blades

Dogmata [4 PL, 65pts]: 2. Chorus of Spiritual Fortitude, 5. Verse of Holy Piety, Relic: The Sigil Ecclesiasticus

Hospitaller [3 PL, 50pts, -1CP]: Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Stratagem: Saint in the Making, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief (Aura)

Sisters Repentia [6 PL, 112pts] . 8x Sisters Repentia: 8x Penitent Eviscerator

Sisters Repentia [6 PL, 112pts] . 8x Sisters Repentia: 8x Penitent Eviscerator

Sisters Repentia [6 PL, 112pts] . 8x Sisters Repentia: 8x Penitent Eviscerator

Fast Attack +

Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 90pts] . 2x Seraphim: 4x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Ministorum Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Ministorum Hand Flamers

Zephyrim Squad [4 PL, 85pts] . 4x Zephyrim: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Power sword . Zephyrim Superior: Bolt pistol

Zephyrim Squad [4 PL, 85pts] . 4x Zephyrim: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Power sword . Zephyrim Superior: Bolt pistol

Heavy Support +

Castigator [8 PL, 155pts]: Castigator autocannons, Storm bolter

Retributor Squad [9 PL, 220pts]: 2x Armourium Cherub . 4x Retributor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Retributor Superior . . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Retributor w/ Simulacrum

Retributor Squad [9 PL, 220pts, -1CP]: 2x Armourium Cherub . 4x Retributor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Retributor Superior: Relic: Litanies of Faith, Stratagem: A Sacred Burden . . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Retributor w/ Simulacrum

Dedicated Transport +

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

Really great discussion from Jack in the stream. Keys to his victories were the consistent use of Word of the Emperor to turn off invulnerable saves against the target of a Repentia missile after hitting the ladies with Unflinching Determination. He admitted it takes tremendous planning and precise movement along with good timing to make those trades truly count, but it's really all about obsec 'em up and fire ze missiles, back to back to back.

He cites how in particular Tyranid lists he faced also couldn't easily handle 10 Retributors with AoC in cover supported by a Hospitaller without making it a terribly lopsided trade.

And of course the value of the Castigator finally makes itself known outside of John Lennon's love letters. Truly one of the most underrated units is finally seeing actual playtime on top tables, so I'm hoping the hate for it will finally subside...even though I know the zeitgeist is slow on the uptake.

 Vilgeir wrote:
Really great discussion from Jack in the stream. Keys to his victories were the consistent use of Word of the Emperor to turn off invulnerable saves against the target of a Repentia missile after hitting the ladies with Unflinching Determination. He admitted it takes tremendous planning and precise movement along with good timing to make those trades truly count, but it's really all about obsec 'em up and fire ze missiles, back to back to back.

He cites how in particular Tyranid lists he faced also couldn't easily handle 10 Retributors with AoC in cover supported by a Hospitaller without making it a terribly lopsided trade.

And of course the value of the Castigator finally makes itself known outside of John Lennon's love letters. Truly one of the most underrated units is finally seeing actual playtime on top tables, so I'm hoping the hate for it will finally subside...even though I know the zeitgeist is slow on the uptake.

So the repentia missile I was expecting and the 10 Retributors with AoC in cover is a specific anti-meta tech that I can get behind.

The Castigator doesn't make any sense. It's even worse now than it was before AoC. When you say 'the value of it' does he site anything specific? Because statistically, it's trash. Especially the autocannons. All of its guns put together should kill about one marine per turn. The Battle Cannon build does 4 damage to a rhino if it's lucky.There's no mathematically possible way it's worth an entire retributor squad or 3/4ths of Celestine unless he has some trick he does with it. Is wasting 3 Venom Cannon shots really that impactful?

Well, your first mistake was thinking it was there to kill Marines

It's the exact same uses I've seen John Lennon promoting it for. I suspect, given the weaponized USDA Grade A hyperbole in your hate letter up there, if he and Jack don't convince you then it's kind of not even worth thinking about. Not every tool needs to be in everyone's toolbox. I'm just taking it as a sign that I'm on the right track in my thinking if significantly way better players are seeing the same thing I did about a criminally underappreciated kit.

He gushes about it on stream. It has the mobility to grab an angle and has the range to hit targets without getting shot back by anything of real consequence. Makes an impact opening up lanes so his Repentia missiles aren't getting tossed into too many problems they can't deal with at once.

 Vilgeir wrote:
Well, your first mistake was thinking it was there to kill Marines

It's the exact same uses I've seen John Lennon promoting it for. I suspect, given the weaponized USDA Grade A hyperbole in your hate letter up there, if he and Jack don't convince you then it's kind of not even worth thinking about. Not every tool needs to be in everyone's toolbox. I'm just taking it as a sign that I'm on the right track in my thinking if significantly way better players are seeing the same thing I did about a criminally underappreciated kit.

He gushes about it on stream. It has the mobility to grab an angle and has the range to hit targets without getting shot back by anything of real consequence. Makes an impact opening up lanes so his Repentia missiles aren't getting tossed into too many problems they can't deal with at once.

Watched the games. It kills spore mines. He uses it to kill spore mines. That's why he brings it.

It kills drones, it kills kroot, it kills all kinds of small trash from range without trading a resource. It fulfills a role other Sister units struggle to do.

not just anything can kill spore mines.....

what did he use the DCA for?

 deviantduck wrote:
not just anything can kill spore mines.....

what did he use the DCA for?

Soak casualties for repentia in the rhino, cheap screen/stranglehold tool, also beat up spore mines, kroot hounds etc.

ERJAK wrote:


Watched the games. It kills spore mines. He uses it to kill spore mines. That's why he brings it.

Wrong again

That's what he used it for in the match ups that were streamed. So if it's not there to kill Marines and not just there to kill spore mines...think, bud. What does killin' spore mines do for the table state? What does removing them do for you, and what equivalent tools do other meta armies have that it can also eliminate? These are the questions that you'll start to see once you graduate past having issues killing Marines.

In fairness to erjak marines are a big proportion of the meta and every meta

They arnt really a problem for us compared to nids and tau.

Nids make up 8% of the meta therefore a choice based only on spore mines is going to be a weaker choice 92% of the time

Unfortunately I seem to get paired against nids 33% of the time but that's probably because they are skewed towards the top end of events.

I like the list as a counter to nids. My problem with the list is that in a lot of parings it is not as strong.

 Vilgeir wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Watched the games. It kills spore mines. He uses it to kill spore mines. That's why he brings it.

Wrong again

That's what he used it for in the match ups that were streamed. So if it's not there to kill Marines and not just there to kill spore mines...think, bud. What does killin' spore mines do for the table state? What does removing them do for you, and what equivalent tools do other meta armies have that it can also eliminate? These are the questions that you'll start to see once you graduate past having issues killing Marines.

You could do the same thing with 1 Mortifier, lol. Or 110pts with a triple HB immolator. It's a pet model he brings because he likes it and it shoots 36". It fills a role, but not in a way that a different 155pts couldn't do.

Also, you're being extremely condescending for someone whose just regurgitating what top players say without a thought of your own. Maybe you should try to graduate beyond that?

So from the reveals today we now know that a new Chapter Approved is coming out soon, perhaps in the next month or so, and that the points updates in it are FINALLY going to be free online on WarCom or free through the Warhammer+ app (hype, though yes the app still sucks of course). Do we think that Sacresants are at least going to drop a bit now that they do not get AoC, maybe go back to 15 at least or hopefully all the way to 14? Additionally, do we think any other points changes might happen? Maybe Vahl is going back to around 270, and maybe Dominions go to 13 instead of 14. Alternatively I could see a possible bump to some units (like basic Sisters to 12) because of AoC. I hope overall it is a bit of a "reset" from the Warzone Nachmund points, but I know GW loves giving us buffs with a backhand of some kind, so I expect if 15 point Sacresants are coming along with 13 point Dominions, then 12 point Battle Sisters (similar to 7th) could be a thing too.

Also, do we expect any chances to our secondaries like Leap of Faith now that we got that Miracle Dice buff? Interested to hear/see what people are thinking!

I think were in a very good spot at the moment with AoC. Pretty much the only way you can go wrong right now is to take sacreasents(and maybe the exorcist).

Pretty much everything else seems decent. As for Orders, Bloody Rose looks really good, VH looks good, and OoML looks good.

Leap of faith is now pretty much an auto include and has to be one of the easier faction secondaries in the game now to score well. It's trivially easy to score 10 and it doesn't compete with the good secondary categories.

At this point, I only hope the new points values for all armies are based on army and unit performance the 1-4 preceding months rather than those points value revisions being published in the next war zone after Nephilim.

 Punisher wrote:
I think were in a very good spot at the moment with AoC. Pretty much the only way you can go wrong right now is to take sacreasents(and maybe the exorcist).

Pretty much everything else seems decent. As for Orders, Bloody Rose looks really good, VH looks good, and OoML looks good.

Leap of faith is now pretty much an auto include and has to be one of the easier faction secondaries in the game now to score well. It's trivially easy to score 10 and it doesn't compete with the good secondary categories.

+1 to hit and not being wounded on 1,2 minoris is also pretty strong

U02dah4 wrote:

 Punisher wrote:
I think were in a very good spot at the moment with AoC. Pretty much the only way you can go wrong right now is to take sacreasents(and maybe the exorcist).

Pretty much everything else seems decent. As for Orders, Bloody Rose looks really good, VH looks good, and OoML looks good.

Leap of faith is now pretty much an auto include and has to be one of the easier faction secondaries in the game now to score well. It's trivially easy to score 10 and it doesn't compete with the good secondary categories.

+1 to hit and not being wounded on 1,2 minoris is also pretty strong

The "crappy Transhuman" trait is a trap; it has no effect at all unless your opponent is shooting a S6+ weapon at you, and even if they are it only reduces the likelihood of a successful wound from 5/6 to 4/6 (a 20% reduction). Not worth one of our trait slots IMO.

If for some reason you want to go Minoris, take the +1 to hit and Guided by the Emperor's Will; +1 to hit in melee is pretty nice on Repentia or Zephyrim (and even Sacresants although they can already get it with a strat), and the ability to reroll a hit or wound can make our shooting that little bit better, and it works decently on melee units too.

+1 to hit is great in novitiates and paragons where it is as effective as the BR +1A

And yes 20% survivability boost is strong in our toughest matchups like nids. It is also good in melee SM/Custodes/IK if that's any good when it comes out and even tau


Emperor's Will is negligible your rolling 30 dice hitting with 20 rerolling 1 increase your successful hits by 2/3rds of 1 hit or about 1%

It's really only usefull on melta spam

U02dah4 wrote:
+1 to hit is great in novitiates and paragons where it is as effective as the BR +1A

And yes 20% survivability boost is strong in our toughest matchups like nids. It is also good in melee SM/Custodes/IK if that's any good when it comes out and even tau


Emperor's Will is negligible your rolling 30 dice hitting with 20 rerolling 1 increase your successful hits by 2/3rds of 1 hit or about 1%

It's really only usefull on melta spam

I have been pretty much only playing Crusade the last month or two and have been using Guided by the Emperor's Will and the Righteous Suffering (mini transhuman) traits for my custom Order. Narratively they contain Sisters formerly of the Ebon Chalice and Valorous Heart so both those traits seemed like the fluffiest to use, but I have actually gone undefeated so far so it is definitely a combo that can work. Granted, I have only faced Daemons, Death Guard, Deathwatch, and a few flavors of chaos marines (not the new codex obviously) so the sample size is not really THAT competitive.

Going forward in more casual competitive matches I definitely want to try the +1 to hit in melee with Emperor's Will convictions combo though just to give my Repentia and Zephyrim a boost. I also end up taking more vehicles than I probably should even in competitive matches so that reroll to hit or wound can really help on a Castigator or an Exorcist (though with all the changes I agree that my poor baby might be seeing the shelf again unless I am playing very narrative games). Not saying the minoris convictions are great by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think there are still some interesting combos (beyond Emperor's Will and Raging Fervor melta spam) that can reasonably work for us.

We are definitely strong right now, pretty much back in at least low A tier if not a little higher, so if we do receive any points buffs (and not too many points nerfs) in the new Nephilim supplement/CA (whatever it is) I think we will be set for at least the rest of the year (as long as Nids get toned down a little in a few months).

So looking at the 40k fight club stats, I was definitely wrong in saying the dataslate was an overall nerf.

I still contend that AoC isn't as big of a change for us as people say it is, but our matchup into nids being reasonable (we're actually top half of factions because we manage to win 33%) and Tau/Harlies being reigned in a little bit were so massive for us it kind of overshadowed any and all effect of AoC. Also the extra miracle dice put pretty much every sisters list on 12VP to start thanks to leap.

We are also dead in the center of the winrate vs representation chart. We are the perfect army. All should strive to be as we are.

As far as subfactions go, only Bloody Rose really has enough of a sample size to draw reasonable conclusions (167 games) and their 56% winrate is encouraging.

Valorous heart is the next most represented, but is not doing anywhere near as well(48% winrate on 64 games). This is in line with what I predicted at least as far as subfactions go so I wasn't totally in the weeds. Rerolling wounds isn't really necessary against us and losing it doesn't really punish armies very much. Nids mostly going in on mortal wounds and wounding us on 2s a lot of the time is also big.

Our Martyrd Lady (in my opinion the only other viable option after BR) is showing a very respectable 63% winrate. However, that's only over 27 games so any data you draw there would only consist of what...5 different players? We'll see if it starts to catch on more as people realize just how good Junith is with AoC.

Exluding armies that don't list their subfactions, Argent Shroud is the only other Order with even mediocre data (25 games) and they're doing terrible (36% winrate). Trying to outgun top tier shooting armies with post-6th nerf retributors and overpriced Paragon warsuits wasn't ever really going to work. Props to the brave souls that tried it.