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Yeah, and also people who actually played with the index only for a few weeks, typically index vs index. I rate my experience with ork index the worst 40k ever played, during that year and a half I even missed 7th edition. Drukhari index was also hot garbage.

I too think it's pathetic that GW can't keep a 40K edition going for more than a few years without a reboot.

I'm a proud battlescribe user who doesn't really want to buy redundant books, only to get rid of them next year. I only buy the BRB when it gets updated, I don't see why I'd want to own any more than that. EPUBs I could buy, but that is pretty much impossible these days since GW stopped selling them, flocking idiots.

I sincerely hope a WH+ subscription could become a serious alternative to (not) buying those books every now and then.

I prefer most Specialist Games over 40K exactly because they don't reboot constantly.

To me, it's not even about the costs so much. My other hobbies are much more expensive It's about not wanting to feel like an idiot.

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, and also people who actually played with the index only for a few weeks, typically index vs index. I rate my experience with ork index the worst 40k ever played, during that year and a half I even missed 7th edition. Drukhari index was also hot garbage.

The Tau index was garbage as well. Then the codex came out and it wasn't any better. One broken mechanic (drones) that acted as a crutch for a limping faction, not fun to play with or against. Obviously forcing you to play as a static gunline castle.
Give me my shooty, mobile Tau back!

 tauist wrote:
I too think it's pathetic that GW can't keep a 40K edition going for more than a few years without a reboot.

I'm a proud battlescribe user who doesn't really want to buy redundant books, only to get rid of them next year. I only buy the BRB when it gets updated, I don't see why I'd want to own any more than that. EPUBs I could buy, but that is pretty much impossible these days since GW stopped selling them, flocking idiots.

I sincerely hope a WH+ subscription could become a serious alternative to (not) buying those books every now and then.

I prefer most Specialist Games over 40K exactly because they don't reboot constantly.

To me, it's not even about the costs so much. My other hobbies are much more expensive It's about not wanting to feel like an idiot.

define 'Can't?

GW keeps editions rolling because that brings in money. It means they can sell you all the books again and again. Ofcourse they could keep an edition alive for a decade and just do small tweaks through CA to make the 'best' 40k edition.

But GW is a business. and edition churn makes more money.

 Ordana wrote:

But GW is a business. and edition churn makes more money.

If that was the case, then every RPG would have way more editions than they currently have. DnD has been around since 1974 and it is on its 5th edition. DnD also dwarfs any game made by GW in terms of market. 40K has been around since 1987 and is on it's 9th edition.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

But GW is a business. and edition churn makes more money.

If that was the case, then every RPG would have way more editions than they currently have. DnD has been around since 1974 and it is on its 5th edition. DnD also dwarfs any game made by GW in terms of market. 40K has been around since 1987 and is on it's 9th edition.

Well ... TSR eventually got bought out. GW is doing better than they ever have so ... maybe TSR should have done the same RE: Edition churn.

Personally, I'd much rather they get the codexes out, and then work on cool campaign books, etc, and let editions live and breathe a while (I also think this would help them to really figure out what's working/not working and get to a more refined rule set), but it does kind of seem like new editions make money.

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, and also people who actually played with the index only for a few weeks, typically index vs index. I rate my experience with ork index the worst 40k ever played, during that year and a half I even missed 7th edition. Drukhari index was also hot garbage.

Orks were obviously unfortunate - but I feel this is just wrong on DE. They were comparatively very strong - leagues ahead of where they'd been in 7th.
Which is partly why when the codex turned up with the usual array of perks they were probably the 2nd best mono-faction in the game after Guard.

I have different experience about that, IMHO they were much stronger in 7th than in 8th index thanks to the coven formations.

The 8th codex came with a massive points discount across the whole line of models, that's one of the main reasons why Drukhari jumped to top tier levels. Everything was extremely overcosted in the index to the point that the army was almost unplayable.

The first iteration of the DE index was actually very strong, as long as you abused the hell out of ultra cheap razorwing flocks in a no Ro3 era.

Same for thousand son. They were the absolute strongest index at the time. 2 pt 4++ troops anyone?

Now all we need to do is wait for the guy who made index 40k the best game ever by banning all the OP stuff, changing half the game, and exclusively playing with like-minded people with very limited collections

To me the rules are not worth the monetary cost but also the time and effort to learn them given how likely I am to be able to play before they are invalidated. But probably I'm not the target demographic, I don't have enough free time and so on.

It seems like most people would prefer a 5 year cycle anyway. I think it'd be more reasonable. I've always thought the codex release schedule was the biggest issue with GW games and it's a shame to see it's still the case.

speaking as an Admech player. I would really have preferred that a different army was given rules in the charadon books. our codex was enough .

it would spread out the rules amongst other factions. as it is I would need to buy 3 books all in 1 go which feels like a day 1 DLC...

ideally if they could have put out other codexes instead it would also feel a lot better/healthier for the game probably.

Just do what I will do.
"Oh cool it has additional rules for sisters! Thanks, I don't need them. That book can stay on the shelf."

I never understood what was the motivation (if any justification or hearsay at all was ever provided) to backtrack on the "living edition" they promoted at the beginning of 8th.

The plan was clearly an index full revamp of the Codexes, and then campaign and reprint of the core manual.

Is 9th supposed to be still under this strategy? Do we know why they changed it? Was it about selling Space Marine 2.0?

I think it was just a case of what GW meant by "living edition" wasn't the same thing as what the fans understood by "living edition".

It seems 9th is going the same way, although it seems the campaign books are being released alongside codexes, rather than a sort of phase 2 afterwards.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I never understood what was the motivation (if any justification or hearsay at all was ever provided) to backtrack on the "living edition" they promoted at the beginning of 8th.

The plan was clearly an index full revamp of the Codexes, and then campaign and reprint of the core manual.

Is 9th supposed to be still under this strategy? Do we know why they changed it? Was it about selling Space Marine 2.0?

The truth is that 8th was flawed.

It was a very good edition under many aspects, but in the end its terrain rules were not up to par with the rest of the game. We also had a weird situation with the gaming community being split between ITC and non-ITC.

9th edition was born to fix those 2 issues. It was needed.
The 8th edition was not in a position to really become a living edition since it was afflicted by those 2 issues.
I know that it will not happen since it makes no commercial sense, but 9th edition can actually become a living edition.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

But GW is a business. and edition churn makes more money.

If that was the case, then every RPG would have way more editions than they currently have. DnD has been around since 1974 and it is on its 5th edition. DnD also dwarfs any game made by GW in terms of market. 40K has been around since 1987 and is on it's 9th edition.

Most RP systems are based off freelance work that has very erratic delivery times and production schedules. DnD is also not the sole product of Wizards of the Coast which also makes Magic which does get its share of new editions frequently. The development team of DnD is also just over 20 people a few years back(even less now according to freelancing rumors) so DnD and Warhammer are playing in a very different ballpark. To compare the two is just false comparison.

I more apt comparison would be Star Wars Legion and Warhammer and Star Wars Legion has had a lot of issues in its run with irregular release schedules and availability as well as reorgs as it was moved to AMG because as far as I know AMG/FG really don't do any of the actual physical production inhouse like GW does.

When it comes to comparing the value to me as a consumer of expensive hard back rule books that rely on finding other people with a common understanding to play with, and the time investment to learn the rules to play, I think they're perfectly comparable.

Miniatures are a separate issue to me, any that I buy I can use for any number of systems or just to paint and admire. The value of the miniatures to me is entirely divorced from their GW rules.

But the rules themselves are devalued by GW's approach. That's not to say it doesn't work for them as a company, they seem to be doing very well. That's fine, I'm not particularly interested in that since I'm not a shareholder but rather someone who wants to play Sci Fi and Fantasy wargames.

Spoletta wrote:
The truth is that 8th was flawed.

It was a very good edition under many aspects, but in the end its terrain rules were not up to par with the rest of the game. We also had a weird situation with the gaming community being split between ITC and non-ITC.

9th edition was born to fix those 2 issues. It was needed.
The 8th edition was not in a position to really become a living edition since it was afflicted by those 2 issues.
I know that it will not happen since it makes no commercial sense, but 9th edition can actually become a living edition.

I feel a big FAQ could have sorted out those issues though.
I guess at a certain point you can argue this is too fundamental, you want everyone on the same page rather than debating whether the 2020 Chapter Approved is *really* mandatory.

I remember the Index at the start of 3rd Ed. Wave Serpents were AV14 on the front, and units could get out the front and assault. Wild times.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Or , gw could've done the consumer frinedly thing and released the index lists as ... "free PDF" .... alas.

In 9th that would have been almost as damaging.

"We just made your Codex invalid... but here's a PDF of something to use until we can sell you a new one!"


There just wasn't a need for Indices at the start of 9th. Period.

Could you play 9th with 8e indices?

An update would also had the advantage of keeping the power level more or less appropriate rather than the crazy divide we have now (in my opinion equale to the worst moment of the past... But that's debatable).

I mean, I can get that GW want power creep to push sales. But it's baffling anyway that they didn't even try once to keep the power level more or less equal for just more than a few months.

That said, culturally they're still probably the very same company they were when the mindset of Kirby "market research are a waste of money" was rule (isn't Roundtree someone who was in the upper management already with Kirby?).
In order to have such big mistake goes unchallenged for years, company culture is to blame, and that doesn't shift easily.

But they have a Facebook page now!!! They're different! GW has changed!

 Da Boss wrote:
Could you play 9th with 8e indices?

I don't see why not. 9th uses the same rules base as 8th.

I might give that a go. Stripped down relatively "level playing field" 40k on the cheap appeals to me.

 Da Boss wrote:
I might give that a go. Stripped down relatively "level playing field" 40k on the cheap appeals to me.

Even I have to admit that there is a level of appeal there, so I see where you're coming from.

It's just a shame that GW aren't using Chapter Approved to add to the game as a whole. I remember one CA from 8th Ed that gave a bunch of Codex-less armies Relics, Warlord Traits and some Strats. It wasn't much, but it was something to add to the 'get-you-by' nature of the Indices.

PA was a bit like that, but we still have massive disparities like most Chaos Marines vs almost every other type of Marine. They could have done something about that with the upcoming book, but instead chose to reprint PA/Vigilus rules instead.

Klickor wrote:
The amount of money the veterans at my club spend on 40k still after playing for over 30years make me wonder how many kids there have to be to equal them in spending. These are grown men with 1 hobby and don't spend much on anything else. You would probably need a bunch of kids for each veteran to keep up in spending. And these guys have been doing this for longer than I have been alive. Each of them should be worth at least the same as 40 kids being burned and churned.

A single veteran is probably worth a handful of kids at a time but will keep on for decades. Probably a bad idea to not cater to them enough and focus too much on the kids. Probably harder and harder to get the kids now a days as well when you have phones,iPads and way cooler video games than 20-30 years ago to compete with. Way cheaper as well.

I think it's much wiser to focus on the kids.

Relying on a cadre of old guard who've been playing for a long time is entirely unsustainable. They will all reach a point where they won't be spending any more money, either because they have all the things, are dead/no longer interested, or don't have the money and time to spend courtesy of having kids and the likes. When that happens, if you don't have new blood, you'll collapse.
Short term vs. long term. In the short term, you can get more by appealing to your long-time supporters, but if you want to do well in the long term, you want to bring in new supporters [at a higher rate].
Any hobby requires new people to last, and GW should absolutely be taking measures to make the hobby easier to get into.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
...I think it's much wiser to focus on the kids...

I don't like that this has become mutually exclusive. As one of the old guard I resent that "focus on the kids" has come to mean "tell me to feth off", and "support the veterans" has become "get no new blood and therefore die as a game," the trade-off seems to always end with telling me to feth off.

 Jidmah wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The argument on the indexes is that until people starting to identify the overpowered units - and abuse 8th's fundamental problems (i.e. first turn deepstrike, almost no restrictions on soup and unit spam) - you had a reasonably balanced game. Specifically that less lethal, slower paced game that a lot of people seem to want.

Obviously it didn't last though - and was shallow regardless. But I do think that's the charm.

I always bounce around on this - because I have no time for verisimilitude. But equally I do think the game can devolve too much into chess - i.e. just a sequence of glasshammers trading with each other.

I think people who really loved the index era didn't have an army that only worked in one specific and unfun way, plus the "index vs codex"-gap was the same as the "8th edition vs 9th edition"-gap we have now.
Especially internal balance was quite horrible for many index armies.

Nah, I'd play my current-codex GSC against a thousand drukhari/admech armies before I'd willingly play Index GSC vs 8th Codex again, that was MISERABLE.

especially during the madness of the 'infinite regenerating-cp guard army' era index vs codex was pure garbage.

People who liked the index era played Space Marines and are really remembering the post-SM 1.0 codex era, that's my theory.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
...I think it's much wiser to focus on the kids...

I don't like that this has become mutually exclusive. As one of the old guard I resent that "focus on the kids" has come to mean "tell me to feth off", and "support the veterans" has become "get no new blood and therefore die as a game," the trade-off seems to always end with telling me to feth off.

If GW cared about veterans we'd have resculpted Aspect Warriors, resculpted Cadians etc. But veterans all own these already and they won't buy them as much as new players, so there's not as much profit in it as sculpting a new units that the vets also have to buy.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
...I think it's much wiser to focus on the kids...

I don't like that this has become mutually exclusive. As one of the old guard I resent that "focus on the kids" has come to mean "tell me to feth off", and "support the veterans" has become "get no new blood and therefore die as a game," the trade-off seems to always end with telling me to feth off.

If GW cared about veterans we'd have resculpted Aspect Warriors, resculpted Cadians etc. But veterans all own these already and they won't buy them as much as new players, so there's not as much profit in it as sculpting a new units that the vets also have to buy.

I don't think this is true. I think GW thinks it's true, yeah, but that's why they always seem to overproduce things like Stormcast and Primaris Marines, and underproduce things like Sisters and the new Vampire release that sell out immediately because veterans are going to jump headfirst into fancier sculpts for stuff they already have and like in addition to all the new people who pop up and think that looked cool. New players are easier to appeal to than old players. New players will buy resculpts because they're new and shiny, old players will buy resculpts because they liked the model already and now they get a fancier plastic version with newer and better rules. Sure, you'll always get holdouts who growl and say "gr, my metal Aspect Warriors that are now wildly out of scale with the rest of the game hanging off their lovingly-converted 25mm bases are fine, I'm not going to buy into the blatant cash grab!", but you weren't going to get them anyway. Also by resculpting WHFB stuff for Sigmar they capture people who played Total War (and don't appreciate being told all their cool stuff is OOP metal with terrible rules or doesn't exist anymore) and all the people who kept their WHFB armies to play 9th Age/KoW/oldhammer, neither of whom give a flying feth about fish-elves or Stormcast.

TL;DR: I don't think you lose new people by making cool new sculpts for old models, but you definitely lose old people by never updating old models.