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Beardedragon wrote:
Out of curiocity, why DONT there exist female space marines in the lore?

Is it because of the whole gene seed thing with primarchs being only men and thus not working for females? space marine lore isnt really my forté as i play orks. so i have no idea

Well, male Marines pre-date the Primarchs, gene-seed and all that.

Marines were already all-male (with the odd male half-Eldar in the mix though) back when all the "single-colour" chapters (such as Ultramarines) were successors to the multi-colour Rainbow Warriors and Calgar was a former slave to a Genestealer Cult Patriarch in his Limo, lol.

(not to mention the half-Eldar chief librarian also switched careers from Dark Angels to Ultramarines half-way through. No "genetics" involved in what made a "chapter").

it should have just been done with the primaris marines. no need to change the sculpts even. mention something about candidates of both genders and all gender characteristics being lost in the process so unless somehow they are naked from the bottom down all marines look are the same

 Insularum wrote:
How best to add female marines:

Current setting, a symbiotic relationship exists between IoM and the Adeptus Astartes - marines cannot procreate so need humans for recruits, humans are too weak to survive in the galaxy at constant war, so need space marines to conquest and defend IoM territory (one cannot survive without the other).

There is no logical reason why magic future space tech cannot make a female space marine, so Cawl once again one-ups the Emperor and invents a female marine creation process.

Fast forward a few millenia, new Imperial civil war breaks out as the marine population has expanded to the point it is competing with humans for resources and marine loyalties are now contested between loyalty to the Emperor and family ties. Instead of defending humanity, marines instead inevitably win the war and enslave humans, becoming a literal master race.

You dont get it, FSM cannot be different from current male SM in any significant manner, so the question about marine procreation is out of the picture.

The lore can only change regarding the fact that some candidates would be female gender at the start of the marine recruitment process.

 Insularum wrote:
How best to add female marines:

Current setting, a symbiotic relationship exists between IoM and the Adeptus Astartes - marines cannot procreate so need humans for recruits, humans are too weak to survive in the galaxy at constant war, so need space marines to conquest and defend IoM territory (one cannot survive without the other).

This isn't remotely true. A huge, HUGE majority of conflicts in the Imperium don't involve space marines at all. Space marines don't deploy in entire armies for every car park punch up like GW would have you believe. They're a strike force that sends a few dudes to go make surgical strikes if they feel inclined and are in the area. If Marines didn't exist all that would happen is it would cost more resources to do the same job and the Inperium isn't exactly short of resources.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Out of curiocity, why DONT there exist female space marines in the lore?

Is it because of the whole gene seed thing with primarchs being only men and thus not working for females? space marine lore isnt really my forté as i play orks. so i have no idea

Well, male Marines pre-date the Primarchs, gene-seed and all that.

Marines were already all-male (with the odd male half-Eldar in the mix though) back when all the "single-colour" chapters (such as Ultramarines) were successors to the multi-colour Rainbow Warriors and Calgar was a former slave to a Genestealer Cult Patriarch in his Limo, lol.

(not to mention the half-Eldar chief librarian also switched careers from Dark Angels to Ultramarines half-way through. No "genetics" involved in what made a "chapter").

Spoiler:

The lack of half-breed (human-xenos) charecters in the current 40K setting really shows the regressive state in which the community has been dweling for ages.

Adding FM marines is easy lore wise.
Pick one:
1) Cawl reveals what else he's been working on....
They are of course Primaris.
OR
2) You know how there's 2 (3?) Chapters that have always remained unnamed, all info sticken from the record?
Well, the veil of secrecy on one of them gets lifted revealing the chapter to be all FM.

This way no existing lore needs rewritten pronoun wise & nobody needs to pretend that they were always here.

Lore wont matter to GW. It never has in the last few years.

Sales will

If there is evidence that adding female space marines on top of Sisters will bring in another mass revenue stream and a whole host of new players who were not sure about 40K up till now but will jump in the exact second female space marines are added..... then GW will do it. If there isn't GW wont.

Vatsetis wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
How best to add female marines:

Current setting, a symbiotic relationship exists between IoM and the Adeptus Astartes - marines cannot procreate so need humans for recruits, humans are too weak to survive in the galaxy at constant war, so need space marines to conquest and defend IoM territory (one cannot survive without the other).

There is no logical reason why magic future space tech cannot make a female space marine, so Cawl once again one-ups the Emperor and invents a female marine creation process.

Fast forward a few millenia, new Imperial civil war breaks out as the marine population has expanded to the point it is competing with humans for resources and marine loyalties are now contested between loyalty to the Emperor and family ties. Instead of defending humanity, marines instead inevitably win the war and enslave humans, becoming a literal master race.

You dont get it, FSM cannot be different from current male SM in any significant manner, so the question about marine procreation is out of the picture.

The lore can only change regarding the fact that some candidates would be female gender at the start of the marine recruitment process.

This was not specified by OP, you are moving goalposts. What was specified was how to deal with the lore - which I have done.

Sim-Life wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
How best to add female marines:

Current setting, a symbiotic relationship exists between IoM and the Adeptus Astartes - marines cannot procreate so need humans for recruits, humans are too weak to survive in the galaxy at constant war, so need space marines to conquest and defend IoM territory (one cannot survive without the other).

This isn't remotely true. A huge, HUGE majority of conflicts in the Imperium don't involve space marines at all. Space marines don't deploy in entire armies for every car park punch up like GW would have you believe. They're a strike force that sends a few dudes to go make surgical strikes if they feel inclined and are in the area. If Marines didn't exist all that would happen is it would cost more resources to do the same job and the Inperium isn't exactly short of resources.

The Great Crusade begs to differ. Introducing female marines would eventually lead to marine population reaching/surpassing Great Crusade era levels.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Spoiler:

That half-Eldar is proportioned like a Squat almost.

ccs wrote:
Adding FM marines is easy lore wise.
2) You know how there's 2 (3?) Chapters that have always remained unnamed, all info sticken from the record?
Well, the veil of secrecy on one of them gets lifted revealing the chapter to be all FM.

This way no existing lore needs rewritten pronoun wise & nobody needs to pretend that they were always here.

There are supposedly 1000 Marine Chapters and like at a push 250 are named in GW publications. 750 Marine Chapters could exist that have female SM, that's how empty the records are for SM.

I prefer to use the tool already in the setting, specifically unreliable narrator.

Essentially, Female Spaces Marines have always been possible (we debated why the exclusion don't make sense even from a fictional science perspective), so anyone may legitimately create his/her Female Firstborns without being restricted to Primaris... but it is only with the innovations introduced by Cawl and the arrive of Primaris that their existence become common and aknowledged by the rest of the Imperium, being for the first time explicitly included in the lore.

That would have the advantages of not retconning retroactively anything (Female Space Marine would always existed, albeit in negligible numbers and ignored by the Imperium)and to double down on how the Imperium and its own ignorance is the worst enemy of itself.

 Insularum wrote:

The Great Crusade begs to differ. Introducing female marines would eventually lead to marine population reaching/surpassing Great Crusade era levels.

What does the Great Crusade, something that happened in M.31 prior to the Heresy have to do with the state of the Imperium in M.41?

I voted not to add female space marines. Not for the reason you might think.

Space Marines have enough freakin models. When there are 100+ models in every other faction, ask me again and the answer might be different.

What I haven't understood is why should the introduction of female marine broke all the other rules that are already in place to contain their numbers (Marine are created by Progenoids, they're capped at 1000 etc etc).

Add - for those who do agree for model reason there's another poll with the options to say they don't want it for modelling reasons.

PenitentJake wrote:
I voted not to add female space marines. Not for the reason you might think.

Space Marines have enough freakin models. When there are 100+ models in every other faction, ask me again and the answer might be different.

Yeah, the last thing we need is to give GW an excuse to make even more space marines, especially when they finally pulled their thumbs out of their arses long enough to make sisters of battle.

I'd be content to wait until the next inevitable release wave of SM and all GW would need to do is chuck an extra sprue in the Primaris boxes. Ez.

Done some cleaning, this thread will be locked outright if it turns into a repeat of the previous topic.

Hey, where'd Down I Go go?

 Gert wrote:

ccs wrote:
Adding FM marines is easy lore wise.
2) You know how there's 2 (3?) Chapters that have always remained unnamed, all info sticken from the record?
Well, the veil of secrecy on one of them gets lifted revealing the chapter to be all FM.

This way no existing lore needs rewritten pronoun wise & nobody needs to pretend that they were always here.

There are supposedly 1000 Marine Chapters and like at a push 250 are named in GW publications. 750 Marine Chapters could exist that have female SM, that's how empty the records are for SM.

Don't get pendentict, you know what I'm talking about. The list of the original chapters/Legions- DA, UM, SW, World Eaters, DG, etc where there's always 2 or 3 that are {redacted}.

I wasn't I was just adding on to your point by emphasising just how empty the Chapter Roster is.
There's still a redacted one on the Primaris version of the Chapters poster.
Apologies if it came across as confrontational.

Sisters are the lore and gameplay space marine equivalents. Women should not be able to be space marines. It inherently contradicts the lore and undermines the idea of a militant fraternal order (which the sisters are a sorority equivalent).

By doing so you will make both sisters and space marines feel less unique, and IMO harm the game way more than you'll ever help it. This change also makes sisters increasingly redundant both as a product, and inside the universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cybtroll wrote:
I prefer to use the tool already in the setting, specifically unreliable narrator.

Essentially, Female Spaces Marines have always been possible (we debated why the exclusion don't make sense even from a fictional science perspective), so anyone may legitimately create his/her Female Firstborns without being restricted to Primaris... but it is only with the innovations introduced by Cawl and the arrive of Primaris that their existence become common and aknowledged by the rest of the Imperium, being for the first time explicitly included in the lore.

That would have the advantages of not retconning retroactively anything (Female Space Marine would always existed, albeit in negligible numbers and ignored by the Imperium)and to double down on how the Imperium and its own ignorance is the worst enemy of itself.

Female space marines were reputedly verboten because they were not meant to be a replacement for humanity. They are meant to be the tools used to shepherd humanity into their eventual transformation into godhood. Space Marines were never meant to be the human ideal, or the eventual evolution of the species as intended by the emperor.

ccs wrote:
Adding FM marines is easy lore wise.
Pick one:
1) Cawl reveals what else he's been working on....
They are of course Primaris.
OR
2) You know how there's 2 (3?) Chapters that have always remained unnamed, all info sticken from the record?
Well, the veil of secrecy on one of them gets lifted revealing the chapter to be all FM.

This way no existing lore needs rewritten pronoun wise & nobody needs to pretend that they were always here.

It could also I spose we tied into a reorganization of existing chapters, maybe switching from 1000 members each to 2000 members each and to meet the recruitment drive switching to taking male or female entries.

Honestly I have felt that as SM forces have become more and more diverse the 1000 number has looked increasingly small for a chapter.

Cawl did it.

People can then either get with the program, or quit.

Voted no, leave as is. Plenty of other areas in 40k already have strong female representation...Guard, Inquisition, Rogue Traders, Eldar, Tau, and of course Sisters. No reason to push for change IMHO. And let's face it, some of the current female characters are damn good (both in Lore and use). Shadowsun, Kyria Draxus, Morvenn Vahl. 40K is not lacking in this area.
Storywise, there really shouldn't be a reason to not include them, I just don't think it's necessary.

Just a reminder, for the sake of trying to keep this poll going for long enough to get decent results:

Please can anyone who wants to argue with anyone over what they've said in a post here do it via Private Message!

By all means voice your own opinions on the subject, but please don't pick up something someone else has said and try to tell them that they are wrong about it!

I really don't want these threads to get shut down before they've had a chance to run for a couple of days!

Space marines are not male or female. All their sexual organs and hormones that gave them a sex to begin with are removed and replaced with machines/drugs/hormones/manufactured organs that make them better at killing. This entire debate is irrelevant. Whatever human form the space marine used to posses as a child is gone - they are asexual cyborgs.

Though I have never read about it - it is entirely possible that female husks were chosen to become astartes at some point. Though I imagine the process would be different. It would have required special drugs/ equipment/ and hormones to add to an already extremely delicate process with a failure rate close to 99%. Forge the narrative if you wish. IMO though - regardless of whether a male or a female is chosen to start the process - the end result would be much the same and look nearly identical.

IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Space marines are not male or female. All their sexual organs and hormones that gave them a sex to begin with are removed and replaced with machines/drugs/hormones/manufactured organs that make them better at killing. This entire debate is irrelevant. Whatever human form the space marine used to posses as a child is gone - they are asexual cyborgs.

Though I have never read about it - it is entirely possible that female husks were chosen to become astartes at some point. Though I imagine the process would be different. It would have required special drugs/ equipment/ and hormones to add to an already extremely delicate process with a failure rate close to 99%. Forge the narrative if you wish. IMO though - regardless of whether a male or a female is chosen to start the process - the end result would be much the same and look nearly identical.

"Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes an aspirant. After the organ implantation process begins he becomes an neophyte. When the final implant is in place and the requisite training and hypnotherapy underway, he becomes a full brother. [1][2a][3]

Even once the organs are implanted they are generally inactive or useless without associated training and hypnotherapy and chemical treatment. Most recruits join the ranks as a brother between the age of 16-18 years.[Needs Citation] "

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine



Also



These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implantation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may accelerate the process.

Warhammer community

 Sledgehammer wrote:

IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Space marines are not male or female. All their sexual organs and hormones that gave them a sex to begin with are removed and replaced with machines/drugs/hormones/manufactured organs that make them better at killing. This entire debate is irrelevant. Whatever human form the space marine used to posses as a child is gone - they are asexual cyborgs.

Though I have never read about it - it is entirely possible that female husks were chosen to become astartes at some point. Though I imagine the process would be different. It would have required special drugs/ equipment/ and hormones to add to an already extremely delicate process with a failure rate close to 99%. Forge the narrative if you wish. IMO though - regardless of whether a male or a female is chosen to start the process - the end result would be much the same and look nearly identical.

"Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes an aspirant. After the organ implantation process begins he becomes an neophyte. When the final implant is in place and the requisite training and hypnotherapy underway, he becomes a full brother. [1][2a][3]

Even once the organs are implanted they are generally inactive or useless without associated training and hypnotherapy and chemical treatment. Most recruits join the ranks as a brother between the age of 16-18 years.[Needs Citation] "

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

Also



These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implantation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may accelerate the process.

Warhammer community

Don't dispute any of that. It is conceded that the lore only supports males being chosen for the process. It is possible that females are also chosen in rare circumstances. Like I said before the end result would be the same. You'd get a frankestine cyborg that is indistinguishable mentally, an in physical appearance with a human being anyways. So the idea of "female space marines" is just nonsense. Space marines have no sex - they have no gender.

IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Space marines are not male or female. All their sexual organs and hormones that gave them a sex to begin with are removed and replaced with machines/drugs/hormones/manufactured organs that make them better at killing. This entire debate is irrelevant. Whatever human form the space marine used to posses as a child is gone - they are asexual cyborgs.

Though I have never read about it - it is entirely possible that female husks were chosen to become astartes at some point. Though I imagine the process would be different. It would have required special drugs/ equipment/ and hormones to add to an already extremely delicate process with a failure rate close to 99%. Forge the narrative if you wish. IMO though - regardless of whether a male or a female is chosen to start the process - the end result would be much the same and look nearly identical.

"Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes an aspirant. After the organ implantation process begins he becomes an neophyte. When the final implant is in place and the requisite training and hypnotherapy underway, he becomes a full brother. [1][2a][3]

Even once the organs are implanted they are generally inactive or useless without associated training and hypnotherapy and chemical treatment. Most recruits join the ranks as a brother between the age of 16-18 years.[Needs Citation] "

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

Also



These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implantation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may accelerate the process.

Warhammer community

Don't dispute any of that. It is conceded that the lore only supports males being chosen for the process. It is possible that females are also chosen in rare circumstances. Like I said before the end result would be the same. You'd get a frankestine cyborg that is indistinguishable mentally, an in physical appearance with a human being anyways. So the idea of "female space marines" is just nonsense. Space marines have no sex - they have no gender.

citation needed. We know almost nothing about space marines genetalia.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As far as I'm aware female space marines never officially existed. They featured as a segment in what was essentially a fan magazine, but have never been featured by GW.

GW absolutely made female space marine minis in the 80's. When you bought a pack of 3 random space marines, there was a chance at getting a female space marine. Unfortunately, retailers at the time found that those blisters didn't sell and asked GW to stop sending them. As a result, GW stopped making those female marines.