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 kirotheavenger wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

In the context I was using is, if you attack a marine with your guard. And it dies, then you charge a second and it’s Likly to just die as well. In a skirmish game that just makes horde army’s unviable.

This is a problem with combat in Necromunda, since the enemy gets to retaliate in melee every time you attack them, it makes cheap melee fighters pretty useless as you're basically giving the enemy a free opportunity to kill you.

Killteam is in danger of falling victim to the same problem, but I reserve judgement until we've seen all the rules.

Your danger is my dream! Hordes of cheap melee fighters have no place in my sci-fi low model count skirmish game. Also stop throwing bodies to speed bump combat monsters.

It looks like minis can charge from one side of the board to the other.

Blastaar wrote:
It looks like minis can charge from one side of the board to the other.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well.. Surely this can't be right?!

If melee goes past armour and you can always reliably get to CC by spending 1 AP, melee specialists will be seriously OP

They didn't say anything about "attempting" actions anymore.. So APL is just a fixed variable which never gets tested? Another missed opportunity..

Can almost guarantee that Charging will be limited to up to your Movement.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

In the context I was using is, if you attack a marine with your guard. And it dies, then you charge a second and it’s Likly to just die as well. In a skirmish game that just makes horde army’s unviable.

This is a problem with combat in Necromunda, since the enemy gets to retaliate in melee every time you attack them, it makes cheap melee fighters pretty useless as you're basically giving the enemy a free opportunity to kill you.

Killteam is in danger of falling victim to the same problem, but I reserve judgement until we've seen all the rules.

There's still an advantage to the attacker in that they choose a die to resolve first. So wimpy models may expect to die even on their activation, but they can guarantee a hit and whittle away the more elite model with their numbers even if the elite model gets a bunch of "free" (in the sense that they take damage in exchange for doing damage) activations. When you have differential points values, "trading" models at a ratio other than 1:1 is normal and expected.

If I were designing the rules, I'd try to use GA (if it's Group Activation) and the "Front-line troopers can act with comrades" snippet from the 5-things article to mean that vanilla chaff-style models (Guardsmen with basic equipment, melee combatants that are only dangerous in swarms like Hormagaunts or cultists, etc.) can activate multiple of the same type of model in one (otherwise) alternating activation. If you then make it so that defenders only roll their melee attack once per activation no matter how many models activate, you can have one 'gaunt not be a threat to, say, a Space Marine, but if they're GA3, they can overwhelm him with their numbers if they're on the attack.

Rihgu wrote:
Can almost guarantee that Charging will be limited to up to your Movement.

Agreed, Charge will most likely be limited by movement. I would also guess there's a limiting factor like "must be in a straight line without obstacles in the path."

Blastaar wrote:
It looks like minis can charge from one side of the board to the other.

You're assuming you can repeat actions

 tauist wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
It looks like minis can charge from one side of the board to the other.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well.. Surely this can't be right?!

What are you guys basing this off of?

Those actions they showed are clearly only brief explanations and not the full rules.

We don't even know any of the specifics about how melee combat works, only the general concept.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 tauist wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
It looks like minis can charge from one side of the board to the other.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well.. Surely this can't be right?!

What are you guys basing this off of?

Oooh now I get it, because the little description says "Move to engage an enemy" without mentioning range they assume you can just teleport into melee from anywhere to anywhere. Pure lol.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 tauist wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
It looks like minis can charge from one side of the board to the other.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well.. Surely this can't be right?!

What are you guys basing this off of?

Oooh now I get it, because the little description says "Move to engage an enemy" without mentioning range they assume you can just teleport into melee from anywhere to anywhere. Pure lol.

Hey, it's been known to happen. Pyrovores dying in a table-sized explosion? Deep-striking land raiders?

Of course we need to see the full rules.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Can almost guarantee that Charging will be limited to up to your Movement.

Agreed, Charge will most likely be limited by movement. I would also guess there's a limiting factor like "must be in a straight line without obstacles in the path."

I hope not, kill team boards can be full of terrain so strait line and without obstacles would really be sucky. Considering the movement you lose as well for going over something.

Speed as well really depends if a charge is movement, 6+6 for a move+charge then attack on elite models is a big thing on tiny boards.

Apple fox wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Can almost guarantee that Charging will be limited to up to your Movement.

Agreed, Charge will most likely be limited by movement. I would also guess there's a limiting factor like "must be in a straight line without obstacles in the path."

I hope not, kill team boards can be full of terrain so strait line and without obstacles would really be sucky. Considering the movement you lose as well for going over something.

going by how movement works and weapons rules, I am pretty sure the KT rules are written with an half empty board in mind

If anything the weapon rules suggest a dense board , hence range isn't needed.
The box also comes with a huge amount of terrain relative to the models you get.

There's no problem here, at all, this was just a brief summary of actions and in no way can be analysed in such detail.

I like the idea of models with a bigger GA being able to combine their attack dice against a target. Such a thing would actually make basic grunts with melee weapons a viable option to field. I hope that's the actual implementation, as opposed to something like in Blood Bowl, where an assist just grants a +1 per assisting model.

But regarding the APL, I still hope there is some sort of suppression mechanic onboard which will make spending those AP's more difficult when pinned etc. If Custodes get 4 APL, slower opponents will need something to even out the odds..

Rihgu wrote:
Can almost guarantee that Charging will be limited to up to your Movement.

Considering charge isn't a free move and comes with limitations, at least ending in engagement range, I could see it universally using the 6" range to provide a substantial move distance and set it apart from a normal move.

I hope Killteam does get some sort of suppression mechanic, but from what we've seen so far I very much doubt it.

Mechanically a suppression rule with moderate impact wouldn't be a bad idea. But this is 40k so you'd probably only see Guardsmen suppressed while everyone else gets a special rule that supersedes it to represent everyone being mindless or insane. I don't trust GW to write such a rule without introducing so many exceptions that its existence is basically pointless.

CC seems to be a pretty important part of the "new" KillTeam... my T'au look pretty sad on their shelf

It's waay too early to be discussing balance like that yet, fear not!

 Geifer wrote:
Mechanically a suppression rule with moderate impact wouldn't be a bad idea. But this is 40k so you'd probably only see Guardsmen suppressed while everyone else gets a special rule that supersedes it to represent everyone being mindless or insane. I don't trust GW to write such a rule without introducing so many exceptions that its existence is basically pointless.

Suppression rules already exist in Necromunda: "pinning" is caused by being hit by any weapon, even when not wounded. As Necromunda is very much about action limits too (models can generally make 2 different actions per round, or double actions in some cases like charging and firing heavy weapons), and standing up after being pinned is an action by itself, this is a major part of gameplay. Skills exist that allow models to stand up without using an action or even circumventing being pinned at all - these are very sought after but relatively rare in practice.

But then, the models in Necromunda are (mostly) more-or-less baseline humans with a clear sense of self-preservation. This may not clearly apply to many 40k factions, but I think enough of them would be affected: apart from Guardsmen, Genestealer and Chaos cultists, T'au, Eldar (of all varieties), Kroot, Sisters, Skitarii and even some Orks (esp. Kommandos) should be "sane" enough of most of the time to not want to run into a storm of bullets, and Marines should also be able to realize they're not "immune" to all weapon types. Of course many of them may have other ways of dodging or deflecting bullets that most baseline humans do not, but still. Honestly it would make Marines even more imposing if they couldn't unvoluntarily be pinned while other models had not choice. Doesn't make them immune to any damage, but they've the armour and will to continue despite the rain of ordnance coming their way (unless they'd choose to be pinned voluntarily, of course).

Star Wars Legion has perhaps a better base system to draw from than Necromunda if you want to apply it to a world as diverse as 40k. Necromunda's system is very binary and doesn't work quite so well with the diversity.

In Star Wars Legion every time a unit gets shot at, you gain a suppression token. If you have Suppression equal to your leadership (1-4) you lose an action, if you have Suppression double your leadership you panic and must flee instead of taking any actions.

It works well as you can give massed Guardsman low leadership, forcing them to rely on nearby officers to stop them just immediately fleeing the table.
Whereas you can give Astartes high leadership, forcing the enemy to focus intense fire in order to suppress them.

Although this is just an exercise in "what could have been", we've seen the datasheet and there's no leadership of any kind anywhere.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
In Star Wars Legion every time a unit gets shot at, you gain a suppression token.

It's also an FFG. Every time you do anything you get a token. Sometimes you get tokens for getting tokens.

Marines isn't immune to all weapon type on the tabletop. They got clapped by mass shoota, autogun, lasgun all the time.The only time they got close to immunity to almost every weapon is Terminator in 2E/SWA.

A terminator with a Storm Shield is pretty robust, but that's a moot point for now since Termies wont be in KT2 unless they get added in future expansions.

The sort of suppression mechanic I woulda made would have been something like "1st AP use is always succesful. After the first action, roll a D6 every time you want to spend an AP, modifying -1 for every supression directed against this operative; on a 3+ that action is succesful." Now I haven't given this too much thought, but something along those lines woulda been great. Throw in something like veteran specialists ignoring modifiers, and a melee attack after a succesful charge action always activating.

A succesful AP mechanic with the possibility of fumbling an action could make really interesting (and cruel) moments in a game, an operative moves in to get a better shot at another, but gets supressed after having made their movement (overwatch) and hesitates long enough to miss a chance for making a shot..

So, points are gone, and it's now based on fire teams?

That sounds pretty dumb. I'm sure a sergeant with a laspistol and chainsword is just as good as one with a plasma pistol and power sword. The kommando example is particularly stupid. There are 9 options in addition to the plain boy. And you select up to nine of them, you can't pick any of them except plain boy more than once. So it's just take exactly what's in the box. Unless you want to switch out the grot or squig for a plain boy, if they're obviously worse or something.

"But what if you want even more customisation options? What about special equipment? What about rare equipment you can requisition or even capture as your Kill Team campaign rolls on?
We’ll let you know as soon as we learn more."

Yeah, I lost a lot of hope this week.

Roster selection covered today:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/22/new-kill-team-replaces-points-with-a-fast-finely-balanced-list-building-system/

Oof. If people come up with weird interpretations and questions about 40k equipment, this is going to cause a lot of confusion, I think. I think I see what they're going for, and I'm intensely curious about the execution -- especially with the given examples of Astartes getting one fire team per kill team, and then the implication that Poxwalkers and Death Guard sound like different fire teams. So surely Death Guard get to take 2 fire teams right? Seems odd, if Loyalists only get one.

Also, the fire teams shown available to Guard look like they're divided by unit type, further underscoring the implication (to me, at least) that Poxwalkers and Plague Marines aren't mixed in one fire team, and raising questions about whether that will mean that Loyalist Astartes have to choose whether to field a kill team of, say, exclusively Intercessors or Infiltrators.

I'm intrigued, but definitely need to see more to make a judgement, here.

Build exactly what's in the box.

I said Warcry was the desired endgame for what GW wants their skirmish games to be. This is another step closer.