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I think it boils down to playstyle. If you want to be shooty you can go with the warbikers, if you want to be choppy you go for the Squighog riders. I didn't want to include kulture buffs because that is just so swingy, but with +1 to hit those squighog boyz become even deadlier as well The biggest thing is that the codex is littered with +1 to hit in Melee where as the only way to get +1 to hit in ranged is with the freeboota kulture.

Beast snaggas (including hogs) get +1 to hit when shooting vehicles or monsters and there is a bunch of wargear and bespoke rules giving +1 to hit when shooting.

 Jidmah wrote:
Beast snaggas (including hogs) get +1 to hit when shooting vehicles or monsters and there is a bunch of wargear and bespoke rules giving +1 to hit when shooting.

True, but honestly how much is that actually worth? Snaggas have S4 pistols at best they can take a single assault D3 S6 18' thump gun per 10 boyz, the Squighog boyz have a S4 8' pistol with no AP, and their spear which is S5 -2 2dmg, the Nob on Smasha squig has a S4 pistol. The only real unit that benefits are the Kill Rig and Hunta rig and of the two the Killrig is the more competitive and its main weapon is Auto-hit But your point is taken, there are niche cases.

The squig riders can throw their spears, those hitting on 4+ makes quite a difference.

So much discussion for such an obvious yes.

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
So much discussion for such an obvious yes.

LOL, go take a look at the ork tactics thread, the mood there has shifted somewhat heavily and now MSU boyz or none at all because they are so terrible with morale The recent Tournament had 2 ork players finishing 1st and 2nd, neither had any boyz

SemperMortis wrote:

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
So much discussion for such an obvious yes.

LOL, go take a look at the ork tactics thread, the mood there has shifted somewhat heavily and now MSU boyz or none at all because they are so terrible with morale The recent Tournament had 2 ork players finishing 1st and 2nd, neither had any boyz

People should not base their entire view upon the lists a couple of people did well with. At some point we may see boyz. Death Guard weren't doing well until they were. Immortals were bad until they weren't.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
So much discussion for such an obvious yes.

LOL, go take a look at the ork tactics thread, the mood there has shifted somewhat heavily and now MSU boyz or none at all because they are so terrible with morale The recent Tournament had 2 ork players finishing 1st and 2nd, neither had any boyz

People should not base their entire view upon the lists a couple of people did well with. At some point we may see boyz. Death Guard weren't doing well until they were. Immortals were bad until they weren't.

Sure they shouldn't. But most people who've tried running boyz end up with the same conclusion. The fewer - the better. It's pretty much like tactical Marines. They're a nice unit on paper - relatively durable, can make pod shots with bolters and a heavy bolter across the board or maybe with a melta if you get closer. They can hold their own vs most infantry from other cosexes - especially if you combine bolter shooting and mellee with a sword sarge. They fill your troop slots, can be put in a rhino for more versatility - there are arguements for running tac Marines. But by the time you kit them out to be ok-ish at their job, you're generally better off running barebones intercessors and just spend extra points from all the tac gear and rhinos elsewhere.

10 boyz in a trukk cost 160. That's the cost of 2 bosstablastas or, if you add 20 pts, even 2 skrapjets that will do MUCH more. Probably, even in mellee with their d3 mortal wounds and bigshootas.

This.

Your choices for troops are essentially
1) bring a unit of boyz that is not particularly good at anything
2) bring boyz in a trukk which are fast, but lack the punch to down anything of value
3) bring a buggy and 'orrible gits
4) pay 1 additional CP for your detachment and just bring two buggies instead of boyz, no troops and have your specalist mob free for something else

There really is no competitive reason to do 1) or 2).

The only way I see someone running boyz is double down on the goff trait and just flood the board with a dozen of 10 boyz units. But then again, for the first time since ever storm boyz, kommandoz, warbikers and burnas are actually better than boyz, so there really isn't a huge incentive to take any boyz before maxing out all the specialists. Mind you, that's not a bad thing.

Yeah I think Ork's and Boyz have got two problems.

1. As said Boyz are worse than Boy-like specialists. Which is reasonable, its true for most factions in 40k these days - but does mean "Greentide" should probably be 3*Kommandos, 3*Storm Boyz, 3*Burna Boyz rather than "here's 3/4/5*30 Boyz, deal with it." I don't think this list would do too badly at a FLGS but....

2. This regular Waaagh turn 1/2 all in charge list seems like a one-dimensional Timmy build. In certain missions, with certain terrain, against certain factions played by people who know what they are doing, it seems like its going to underperform.

But its hard to see what you can throw in to add dimensionality, because doing so inevitably makes that turn 1-2 punch weaker. Ditching say 40 infantry for 5 buggies really changes the feel of the list. It feels like you very quickly end up evolving into those tournament lists we've seen - i.e. shooty speedwaaagh buffed units doing the heavy lifting, while min-sized Kommandos/Storm Boyz units serve as objective scorers rather than hammers. And then there's no place for Boyz at all.

This is partly I think because Tankbustas/Lootaz/Flash Gitz are "okay" in terms of 40k balancing as a whole, but their Buggy equivalents are clearly just better.
And that's before factoring in Speedwaaagh.

Regular Waaagh should have probably given Speedwaaagh like bonuses to the above "shooty infantry" units.

Having played with regular waagh, I can say that the one-turn bonus to charge after advance is extremely problematic. If you pop it t1, only a small portion of your army gets to fight and than the rest might not even get to charge t2 if they got bad advance moves t1. If you pop it t2, it's too late and you have half of your striking force dead as you still got to spend points on scoring andsupport characters, so, a t2 charge with your mellee with below average durability is gona underperform. And if you go 2d, it's even worse if the opponent ain't rushing mid board with all of his forces t1. And if it does, probably means he's not afraid of your mellee anyways.

Tyel wrote:
Yeah I think Ork's and Boyz have got two problems.

1. As said Boyz are worse than Boy-like specialists. Which is reasonable, its true for most factions in 40k these days - but does mean "Greentide" should probably be 3*Kommandos, 3*Storm Boyz, 3*Burna Boyz rather than "here's 3/4/5*30 Boyz, deal with it." I don't think this list would do too badly at a FLGS but....

.

Marines are the same. minimal troops, often take for utility of up board deployment or deep strike preventsion, and the regular troops that make the army work are multiple units of blade guard, units of attack bikes etc. Not all armies are like that. DE for example run a ton of their own troops, same with GK or Ad mecha. But DG runs minimal cost efficient pox walkers as obligatory troops, and then a lot of termintors LoS shoting tanks etc.
This seems to be the two way GW designed army in 9th ed.

The issue I have with boyz right now is that they are incredibly easy to fix, but GW doesn't want to.

The biggest negative impact for Boyz over 10 models is Morale. As soon as you breach that magic number you open yourself up to max shots from blast weapons and, when those shots do connect, if you lose 4 models you have a 50% chance to fail morale and then lose another 1/6th +1 to morale and attrition.

Giving Orkz back their old Morale rules, or a modifier that allows you to only lose 1 model to morale or 1 from morale and 1 from attrition would fix most of the issues with boyz over night. I'm fine with occasionally losing a model or two to Morale, but at the moment its just catastrophic, especially if you go second and your opponent gets to whittle down several mobz at the same time.

The other issue is that boyz are now 50% more expensive than they were a few short years ago. 50%! I can only think of 1 other type of troops choice that has gone up a similar or higher amount, and that's Grots and other ridiculously cheap troops who went from 2-3ppm to 5 because of GW inane rule about 5pts being the minimum per model.

I constantly bring this up, but it constantly bears repeating. Marines in 4th were 15pts, Orkz were 6. Marines are now 18 (20% increase) and orkz are now 9 (50% increase). did boyz become 30% better compared to Tac Marines in that same time period? No, and i've shown the math many times over. So Ork boyz are competitively over priced right now, not saying Tac Marines are great either mind you, just pointing out that pt for pt, Orkz are now less durable and less dmging than they were in 4th vs those Same Marines.

I believe we all know the reason why, that being that GW wants to crush hordes so that they don't skew games anymore, but you could have done this by at least justifying 9ppm, or conversely, make them 10ppm but give them a save worth mentioning.

Karol wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Yeah I think Ork's and Boyz have got two problems.

1. As said Boyz are worse than Boy-like specialists. Which is reasonable, its true for most factions in 40k these days - but does mean "Greentide" should probably be 3*Kommandos, 3*Storm Boyz, 3*Burna Boyz rather than "here's 3/4/5*30 Boyz, deal with it." I don't think this list would do too badly at a FLGS but....

.

Marines are the same. minimal troops, often take for utility of up board deployment or deep strike preventsion, and the regular troops that make the army work are multiple units of blade guard, units of attack bikes etc. Not all armies are like that. DE for example run a ton of their own troops, same with GK or Ad mecha. But DG runs minimal cost efficient pox walkers as obligatory troops, and then a lot of termintors LoS shoting tanks etc.
This seems to be the two way GW designed army in 9th ed.

To be honest I don't think it's an intentional design. They generally try to make different archetypes viable - at least for armies with wide model ranges. One of the primary ork archetypes is greentide. With LOTS of boyz. But as greentide has allready been pretty potent and boyz received t5 and ap1 choppa buffs, alongside clan traits that make them more durable (overhyped snakebites - I literally saw people in the 40k chats loosing their gak on how overpowered t5 transhuman boyz are and that they should cost 12 pt at very least) or deadlier in mellee (goffs), so they had to balance it out not to make hordes of boyz too good compared to other stuff in the book and vs other armies that don't gear with killing hordes in mind (admech hordes are an exception cause they accidentally got 2+ armored unkillable troops with tons of shooting), so, they made boyz 1 pt more expensive (which is minor, right...), took away greentide and fearless. But in the end, they just overvalued the buffs and undervalued the nerfs.

An argument in favor of the theory of gw honestly thinking hordes of 3*30 t5 boyz backed by 3*20 snaggas on a flank are gona rock the scene, is that 3 out of 4 of our special missions favor mellee hordes. The 4-th favors a mellee-oriented warlord rolling along the tide and killing big stuff or lots of stuff that's smaller.
Also, right after orks we see 1k son previews that feature a strategem specifically aimed at helping out with hordes - 1 cp to make your soulreaper cannon double it's hits vs squads with 11+ models.

 koooaei wrote:


To be honest I don't think it's an intentional design.

I genuinely think there's an oversight with the core rules that GW didn't consider while writing 9E or any codexes. The new morale rules fundamentally favour MSU in a way they probably didn't intend.

For example; if a 30-strong unit loses 5 models and fails morale it can expect at least 4 more to combat attrition.

If a 30-strong unit loses 14 models in a turn it's almost certainly going to fail the check, but can expect to take fewer attrition losses than the unit who took more casualties.

If two 11-strong units lose 5 models each, they'll probably lose a total of 2 models despite both starting and finishing in a considerably weaker position.

When you apply 9E morale rules to units of 5-10 with good leadership values it works as it's probably intended. If you try to apply it to larger units with poorer leadership, it can often result in a weird unintuitive outcome where those who take light casualties lose more to morale than when taking higher losses.

This is the core issue and I think GW have missed it completely. It's something far more obvious with Orks than any other codex so far.

There is still a number of ways to mitigate morale - mob rule, ghaz, runtherd, zag, stompa, freeboota warlord trait. But most of them are nerfed versions of fearless-like abilities they used to be. Now I think this is actually intentional. We've had plenty of editions where, on one hand, morale had a serious impact rule wise, but on the other hand, there were more fearless or very close to fearless units than units that can actually fail ld. But loosing 1+ every 6th ork is still waaay too much for large squads. Your 30-man squad of boyz is around 20-30% LESS durable than it was pre-"buff" if it looses 5-10 modeIs. Things start to go in the t5 boy'z favor a bit if the enemy intends to wipe your 30-man squad in one go but now there is ngenerally no need cause there's no green tide strat. I don't mind orks being non-fearless, just have some reasonable mitigation mechanics that justify their 9 pt cost and give a reason to run squads of 30. Why not make mob rule to be a scaleable version of grim resolve. Something like:

If there are 11+ models in a squad, or in a friendly squad with mob rule that is within 6", the squad can not loose more than 2 models to morale, if there are 21+ models, the squad can not loose more than 1 model to morale.

Snagas and nobz could have an innate rule to loose 1 model less to a minimum of 1 representing their orky confidence in such a brutal war-like society and dealing with the problem of their squads being smaller.

Now there are actually reasons to run 30-man squads that will not suffer 5 casualties from morale after suffering 5 casualties from shooting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
So much discussion for such an obvious yes.

LOL, go take a look at the ork tactics thread, the mood there has shifted somewhat heavily and now MSU boyz or none at all because they are so terrible with morale The recent Tournament had 2 ork players finishing 1st and 2nd, neither had any boyz

People should not base their entire view upon the lists a couple of people did well with. At some point we may see boyz. Death Guard weren't doing well until they were. Immortals were bad until they weren't.

Yeah I think you are right. The fact is though - Immortals were always good and it was a simple calculation. For 4 more points you get a gun with 2.5 the range and a +1 T +1A and +1 save bonus and all you give up is max squad size and reroll 1's for reanimate. That is a lot for +4 points. I have always included them in my Necron lists.

Boys are actually quite good - whether the "best" players are including them in their list. They might be better as10 mans in trucks and maybe one 30 man that you can cover with some form of morale mitigation. They are still a bargain though. Taking them nets your army more CP - they are better than Gretchen.

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

Yeah I think you are right. The fact is though - Immortals were always good and it was a simple calculation. For 4 more points you get a gun with 2.5 the range and a +1 T +1A and +1 save bonus and all you give up is max squad size and reroll 1's for reanimate. That is a lot for +4 points. I have always included them in my Necron lists.

Boys are actually quite good - whether the "best" players are including them in their list. They might be better as10 mans in trucks and maybe one 30 man that you can cover with some form of morale mitigation. They are still a bargain though. Taking them nets your army more CP - they are better than Gretchen.

Boyz are quite good...on paper. On the table? Not so much. The morale issue means you will never take 30 boyz because you are ceding your opponent free points from morale. And yeah, you can use the 2CP once a game strat to save those 4-5 boyz but 1: its not worth it and 2: its once a game. And the next argument is that you can just use the Ork specific 2CP strat which lets you pass morale...except that its terrible. 2CP to kill D3+1 boyz (or just D3..still not sure on the exact Order of Operations) as opposed to not using 2 CP and just losing 1+ 1/6th of your boyz.

And as far as taking them in trukkz, sadly we are not Drukhari..specifically, trukkz are nowhere near as good/useful as Dark Eldar transports. Ours don't get a D3+3 Melta gun, nor do they have a stock 5++ invuln save nor do they have the same movement/fly. And the next argument is "What about the trukk boyz specialist mob!" to which I point out that anything those "boys" can do, would be done significantly better by Meganobz/Nobz in that trukk using that detachment.

Nope, as of right now, unless GW lowers Boyz costs or gives us a morale mitigation method that isn't Fething useless, boyz are effectively relegated to Friendly games or at best, MSU tax troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is still very early mind you, but as of right now Orkz have placed in 3 tournaments since their new codex got released. Flying Monkey Con, Wargames for Warriors and the Alberta Classic. In the Alberta they placed 1st and 2nd, and the Wargames for Warriors they placed 1st and 3rd.

I believe out of all 5 lists that placed there was a total of 30 boyz and 20 beast snaggas all in 10 man units. So 5 Boyz/Snagga troops choices out of 5 lists and at least 8+ detachments. Compare that to just 1 Month ago when the average comp list was taking upwards of 120 boyz.

I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess they were min scoring squads. Which I can see. 10 t5 bodies can be a bit difficult to remove in one go if you have the rest of the army up front. But is it more difficult than 20 t3 bodies...

Maybe they were used out of Los turn 1-2 for octarius and than ran on home and mid board objectives. Could be ok turn 3 as the enemy is supposed to be left without excessive amount of ways to deal with something like that. Anyways, some info could be helpful as I still don't see them more preferable than, say, kommandoes or an extra buggy.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess they were min scoring squads. Which I can see. 10 t5 bodies can be a bit difficult to remove in one go if you have the rest of the army up front. But is it more difficult than 20 t3 bodies...

Maybe they were used out of Los turn 1-2 for octarius and than ran on home and mid board objectives. Could be ok turn 3 as the enemy is supposed to be left without excessive amount of ways to deal with something like that. Anyways, some info could be helpful as I still don't see them more preferable than, say, kommandoes or an extra buggy.

I would say that a twice lighter footprint does help for cover and obscured line of sight making 10 T5 bodies slightly harder to remove than 20 T3 on the tabletop even though on paper it would be basically the same.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess they were min scoring squads. Which I can see. 10 t5 bodies can be a bit difficult to remove in one go if you have the rest of the army up front. But is it more difficult than 20 t3 bodies...

Maybe they were used out of Los turn 1-2 for octarius and than ran on home and mid board objectives. Could be ok turn 3 as the enemy is supposed to be left without excessive amount of ways to deal with something like that. Anyways, some info could be helpful as I still don't see them more preferable than, say, kommandoes or an extra buggy.

You're not fitting all those boyz behind cover and you need them up front to cover for the squigosaurs anyway. It's an army that played heavy into objectives rather than killing.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?

Can see the two Ork wargamesforwarriors lists here: https://www.40kstats.com/wargamesforwarriors.

Rich Kilton is obviously very good - but yeah, I'm a bit at a loss what happens if you go second as to my mind on *reasonable* dice, you should just get smoked by a well put together shooty list (i.e. the 3rd place Ork list). But maybe that just didn't happen, or it was possible to hide sufficient stuff behind cover.

Someone from the event suggested the issue is you get this pile of obsec bodies (between troops+Deathskulls) that just tie everything up and so really screws over your own primary game even if you should eventually clear them.

Tyel wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?

Can see the two Ork wargamesforwarriors lists here: https://www.40kstats.com/wargamesforwarriors.

Rich Kilton is obviously very good - but yeah, I'm a bit at a loss what happens if you go second as to my mind on *reasonable* dice, you should just get smoked by a well put together shooty list (i.e. the 3rd place Ork list). But maybe that just didn't happen, or it was possible to hide sufficient stuff behind cover.

Someone from the event suggested the issue is you get this pile of obsec bodies (between troops+Deathskulls) that just tie everything up and so really screws over your own primary game even if you should eventually clear them.

The link is broken

 koooaei wrote:

The link is broken

https://www.40kstats.com/wargamesforwarriors

That's due to me adding a full stop

Tyel wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

The link is broken

https://www.40kstats.com/wargamesforwarriors

That's due to me adding a full stop

The first list is illegal - you can't give redder armor to a squigosaur - he's not a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than that, it's a list that kills nothing and just scores a lot... I don't know, have to watch it play on those tourney tables with 8-10 large los-blocking terrain features but I'm afraid it's not gona work on regular tables with 3-4 at best, and mostly just 1 large in the middle and a couple small ones on each side that are so common in gaming stores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, the rest of the lists are pretty layed back either. However, the ork that took 3d clearly has a more coherent list. It's hard to tell what was going on there unless we see some batreps. Anyhow, thanks for info!

I'd agree with you - although to be fair its a common issue with tournaments, you only have to (and only can) beat what's in front of you. You don't always get multiple games against whatever are currently seen to be the most competitive list in the game.

I don't think for example there were any point and click Ad Mech lists at the tournament - which might have shot all those Boyz to bits.

 koooaei wrote:

The first list is illegal - you can't give redder armor to a squigosaur - he's not a vehicle.

No, it can be taken on a vehicle. It doesn't have to be.

 koooaei wrote:

The first list is illegal - you can't give redder armor to a squigosaur - he's not a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than that, it's a list that kills nothing and just scores a lot... I don't know, have to watch it play on those tourney tables with 8-10 large los-blocking terrain features but I'm afraid it's not gona work on regular tables with 3-4 at best, and mostly just 1 large in the middle and a couple small ones on each side that are so common in gaming stores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, the rest of the lists are pretty layed back either. However, the ork that took 3d clearly has a more coherent list. It's hard to tell what was going on there unless we see some batreps. Anyhow, thanks for info!

As already mentioned, yeah the 1st list is legal. But as far as the point of the list itself I can read his intentions pretty well. Turn 1 he has 2 units of Trukkboyz as an alpha strike to keep his opponent honest on deployment if nothing else. He also has 3 units of Kommandos he can plop anywhere to grab objectives, I don't think he used them as another version of Alpha strike though, MSU doesn't do much for them in that regard, though I am curious as to why he gave 2 of the Kommando nobz PKs.

He then has 3 Squigbuggies and 3 DeffKoptas to provide a turn 1 ranged threat and the koptas can be rather annoying in CC mind you. I think the real weight though comes from his turn 2 strike with 2 Squig Nobz, 1 Beastboss on Squigosaur, 6 Squigriders and a few other units that can inflict some dmg in CC. And really, they are Evil Sunz, so they could potentially get a turn 1 charge off if they used their WAAAAGH turn 1. The Riders are M11 since they are evil sunz, average advance roll would be 4.5 so say 4, that gives them a 9' charge turn 1 if their opponent deployed near the edge.

Personally, I agree in that its a bit weird for a list, its split pretty heavily on what its purpose is. It has units that want to get stuck in pretty quick, but it also has MSU boyz/beastboyz who I don't see a purpose for except holding backfield objectives and hoping that the Squigbuggies and CC threats distract your enemy enough. if it were me, Id probably scrap the PK on the Kommandos and the beastboyz entirely and grab 3x15 Kommandos for a really strong Turn 1 threat. 3 max Kommando squads can delete a lot of enemy units/points turn 1 with little inherent risk. If you give them the Squigbomb and distraction grot they are really strong, team them with Da WAAAAGH and they are Melee beatsticks that WILL be in charge range turn 1 unless your opponent deploys really far back.

It's not illegal though. Redder paint CAN be taken by a vehicle, but any Evil Suns character is fair game.

Kommandoz also don't deep strike, but infiltrate.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's not illegal though. Redder paint CAN be taken by a vehicle, but any Evil Suns character is fair game.

Kommandoz also don't deep strike, but infiltrate.

Yeah, the main incentive for taking it on a vehicle like the Deffkilla Wartrike is because of the larger base size affecting more units if you're multi-charging, but otherwise you can take it on any character AFAIK.