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SemperMortis wrote:
[spoiler]The Trukk is flat 70pts now, which means 10 boyz in a trukk is 160pts. And yes, its a turn 2 threat, but when you look at real game scenarios, you will not be using it as a turn 2 threat unless you have a LOT of turn 2 threats to saturate the enemy because a trukk is rather fragile. The only way I see an enemy not fragging the trukk turn 1 is if you are leaning heavily into buggies and saturate that threat area so he has to prioritize the most important threats. But again, which would you rather have, 10 trukk boyz with an upgraded Nob in a trukk for 170pts or 2 buggies for 180pts.

Threat saturation has always been essential for orks to survive and since a 160 pts is still rather cheap you can have several of that sort and leaning heavily into buggies is certainly going to be the way to go (added bonus a bunch of buggies and troop mounted trukk with deathkilla wartrike actually looks pretty thematic). Of course, taking two buggies is tempting as they are certainly better, but those trukk mounted boyz do have objective secure and can bully almost any other troop squad of similar cost out of an objective, especially with support from said buggies. I think there might be some good synergy between the two units, at least at my level. There is probably more "cutting edge" lists out there, but I don't think it would be fair to call slugga boyz mounted on trukks as a bad or even mediocre. It's just that there is even better stuff out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.

Because 10 is the minimum you can take and 11+ opens you up to the full effects of blast weapons. If I could field Boyz in units of 5 I would, I would take 2 units of 5 in each trukk instead of 1 of 10.

But if they are in a trukk then they wouldn't be affected by blast weapons, no? When they do disembark chances are they have a good chance of charging an enemy squad where they would take a few casualties anyway. I'm not sure blast weapons are that much of a concern for mech boyz.

That's probably true, but we were making a 1 to 1 ratio comparison in most of the thread. I'm not sure that paying 18 points for 2 extra boyz is going to improve the mob at what it's supposed to do (clean an enemy unit off an objective or something similar to it) so it might be some wasted points there and you might want to keep the open space for a character instead.

epronovost wrote:


Threat saturation has always been essential for orks to survive and since a 160 pts is still rather cheap you can have several of that sort and leaning heavily into buggies is certainly going to be the way to go (added bonus a bunch of buggies and troop mounted trukk with deathkilla wartrike actually looks pretty thematic). Of course, taking two buggies is tempting as they are certainly better, but those trukk mounted boyz do have objective secure and can bully almost any other troop squad of similar cost out of an objective, especially with support from said buggies. I think there might be some good synergy between the two units, at least at my level.

Correct about target saturation. But Objective secure isn't the end all be all. It only matters when facing off against another person who didn't bring many troops and only then based on numbers. I really feel like people overvalue objective secure in that regard. As far as Bully similar troops....no.

5 assault intercessors are 95pts, or about the same as 10 boyz. Those assault intercessors have 18' pistols because of course they do, with AP-1. In CC they each have 4 attacks in the 1st round and the sgt has 5. if they get to fight first they get 21 attacks 14 hits, 5ish wounds for 5 dead Orkz. If the orkz swing first they get 27 attacks, 18 hits and 9 wounds for 3dmg or 1.5 dead Marines the NOb swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and about .6dmg. At absolute best you kill 2 Marines, so they lost 40% compared to the Orkz losing 50% and then in morale probably another 2.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.

Because 10 is the minimum you can take and 11+ opens you up to the full effects of blast weapons. If I could field Boyz in units of 5 I would, I would take 2 units of 5 in each trukk instead of 1 of 10.

But if they are in a trukk then they wouldn't be affected by blast weapons, no? When they do disembark chances are they have a good chance of charging an enemy squad where they would take a few casualties anyway. I'm not sure blast weapons are that much of a concern for mech boyz.

I think it's also the fact that there isn't any real incentive to max out the unit. The two boyz extra attacks won't make or break the unit and as ablative wounds they're not cost efficient either.

SemperMortis wrote:
5 assault intercessors are 95pts, or about the same as 10 boyz. Those assault intercessors have 18' pistols because of course they do, with AP-1. In CC they each have 4 attacks in the 1st round and the sgt has 5. if they get to fight first they get 21 attacks 14 hits, 5ish wounds for 5 dead Orkz. If the orkz swing first they get 27 attacks, 18 hits and 9 wounds for 3dmg or 1.5 dead Marines the NOb swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and about .6dmg. At absolute best you kill 2 Marines, so they lost 40% compared to the Orkz losing 50% and then in morale probably another 2.

That's why I think the Goff Klan allegiance is really important for small units of boyz. Those extra hits on 6 and the extra point of strength on the charge is really useful to bring the hurt a bit further, especially with Waaagh! which is also super important (though buggies would severely miss the extra point of AP, though I'm not sure if they need it all that much). Plus, an old ork rule always apply, never fight the enemies best close combat specialists with yours; shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty whenever possible.

SemperMortis wrote:

epronovost wrote:


Threat saturation has always been essential for orks to survive and since a 160 pts is still rather cheap you can have several of that sort and leaning heavily into buggies is certainly going to be the way to go (added bonus a bunch of buggies and troop mounted trukk with deathkilla wartrike actually looks pretty thematic). Of course, taking two buggies is tempting as they are certainly better, but those trukk mounted boyz do have objective secure and can bully almost any other troop squad of similar cost out of an objective, especially with support from said buggies. I think there might be some good synergy between the two units, at least at my level.

Correct about target saturation. But Objective secure isn't the end all be all. It only matters when facing off against another person who didn't bring many troops and only then based on numbers. I really feel like people overvalue objective secure in that regard. As far as Bully similar troops....no.

5 assault intercessors are 95pts, or about the same as 10 boyz. Those assault intercessors have 18' pistols because of course they do, with AP-1. In CC they each have 4 attacks in the 1st round and the sgt has 5. if they get to fight first they get 21 attacks 14 hits, 5ish wounds for 5 dead Orkz. If the orkz swing first they get 27 attacks, 18 hits and 9 wounds for 3dmg or 1.5 dead Marines the NOb swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and about .6dmg. At absolute best you kill 2 Marines, so they lost 40% compared to the Orkz losing 50% and then in morale probably another 2.

Your math is off.
9 orks attack 27 times for a total of 4.5 damage (they have AP-1). Same for Nob which inflicts 0,87 damage. A total of 5.3 damage.
The intercessors inflict 4.57 damage on the orks, so the orks are actually a bit better than the intercessors while costing a bit less.
They surely don't bully them, but they are ahead.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.

Boys would be great at 5 models. Morale would basically be negligible, it's still obsec, etc.

If boys could be taken in mobs of five it would mean you could get two obsec units and two Klaw nobs per trukk that don't really have to worry so much about blast.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.

Boys would be great at 5 models. Morale would basically be negligible, it's still obsec, etc.

If boys could be taken in mobs of five it would mean you could get two obsec units and two Klaw nobs per trukk that don't really have to worry so much about blast.

That would indeed by awesome.

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well when did you start playing? Because Necron Warriors started off as being strictly better than Marines in basically every way. T5, 2+Save, and a bunch of crazy abilities. The fluff for them has changed, and they've absolutely seen a degradation over time.

This to me is the key element. The fluff of the Necron has changed over the years so have their rules . . .

Right, well . . Fer whatever reason, the degradation is real and I hate it. Also Marines have just gotten bigger and bigger at the same time, queue Heavy Intercessors. *sigh*

epronovost wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
5 assault intercessors are 95pts, or about the same as 10 boyz. Those assault intercessors have 18' pistols because of course they do, with AP-1. In CC they each have 4 attacks in the 1st round and the sgt has 5. if they get to fight first they get 21 attacks 14 hits, 5ish wounds for 5 dead Orkz. If the orkz swing first they get 27 attacks, 18 hits and 9 wounds for 3dmg or 1.5 dead Marines the NOb swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and about .6dmg. At absolute best you kill 2 Marines, so they lost 40% compared to the Orkz losing 50% and then in morale probably another 2.

That's why I think the Goff Klan allegiance is really important for small units of boyz. Those extra hits on 6 and the extra point of strength on the charge is really useful to bring the hurt a bit further, especially with Waaagh! which is also super important (though buggies would severely miss the extra point of AP, though I'm not sure if they need it all that much). Plus, an old ork rule always apply, never fight the enemies best close combat specialists with yours; shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty whenever possible.

Taking goffs means you forego the trukkboy subculture - basically, the only reason for boyz to be run in trucks. Otherwise, just take 11 ppm burnas or 10 ppm kommandoes with 3+ cover save, +1 to wound and a 5pt cheaper klaw. And this way you could indeed run 2*5.

GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.

I take 10 because I consider them a tax unit with some purpose, and two extra bodies don't make any significant difference. I also prefer to have units cost round numbers, a 11th boyz is likely a 10ppm model and 12 boyz cost +20ppm unless there's some other unit with an odd cost, which is not very common in 9th edition as nothing costs less than 5 points now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:


Taking goffs means you forego the trukkboy subculture - basically, the only reason for boyz to be run in trucks. Otherwise, just take 11 ppm burnas or 10 ppm kommandoes with 3+ cover save, +1 to wound and a 5pt cheaper klaw. And this way you could indeed run 2*5.

I also make them goffs because I need specialists mobs for other units and I have to field a tax troop. I prefer 10 trukk goffs boyz than 10 boyz on foot or 10 grots or to give up a few more CPs to avoid troops at all.

Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.

 Jidmah wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.

Yup, nothing amuses me more than seeing fairweather fans assume Orks play like Marines/Eldar with re-roll support and then flounder horribly because they went for a combined arms build rather than a proper Ork themed skew list.

Also, I thought GW's store was still having production issues when it comes to stock due to the pandemic, not at all surprising that they'd sell out of the hot stuff now that the codex has been "released".

Buggy spam lists are much easier to "drive" than a green tide, so, currently, players from other factions can have an easier learning curve.

We're much closer to tau than to orks from previous editions ATM.

 Jidmah wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.

Well, the stock issues are relatively recent. I can't think of a time from the 90s to about 2015 or so where I couldn't just walk into a store (or online seller) and pick up whatever. [Other than indie stores post 2010 or so that were deliberately not stocking the full range, and I can't really blame them for that]

Voss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.

Well, the stock issues are relatively recent. I can't think of a time from the 90s to about 2015 or so where I couldn't just walk into a store (or online seller) and pick up whatever. [Other than indie stores post 2010 or so that were deliberately not stocking the full range, and I can't really blame them for that]

The game is also much, much more popular than it used to. GW sells about twice more products than it did like 8 years ago.

Voss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.

Well, the stock issues are relatively recent. I can't think of a time from the 90s to about 2015 or so where I couldn't just walk into a store (or online seller) and pick up whatever. [Other than indie stores post 2010 or so that were deliberately not stocking the full range, and I can't really blame them for that]

I started shortly after 5th launched and spectated a few games of 4th before deciding to jump in. I'm fairly sure that getting manticores and basilisk was a major problem back then, and KFF big meks were sold out at every store when I was trying to get one (both GW and FLGS), so I bought mine off ebay. It didn't happen as often as it does now because there were less players, but it did happen.

Don't know about GW Stores, but my FLGS tends to see their entire catalogue of [New Codex Faction] disappear for 3 months until it recovers. I'd say its been noticeably that way since... at least the GSC 2nd wave. So 2.5ish years?

So for example Dark Eldar are now just about recovering to "reasonably available" after having being impossible to get hold of.

Orks don't look too bad outside the obvious power units mentioned - which I suspect relates in part to the fact more casual players are still at "wha?" on a codex most people don't have.

 Jidmah wrote:


I started shortly after 5th launched and spectated a few games of 4th before deciding to jump in. I'm fairly sure that getting manticores and basilisk was a major problem back then, and KFF big meks were sold out at every store when I was trying to get one (both GW and FLGS), so I bought mine off ebay. It didn't happen as often as it does now because there were less players, but it did happen.

Big mek with KFF in that period was constantly out of stock even here, I perfectly remember that, in fact I remember several players proxying it everytime, including me as I couldn't buy the actual model and I had very low modelling skills at that time, I couldn't convert anything properly. Lots of people played orks at the beginning of 5th, it was one of the most popular armies.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wych or succubi are glass only if someone runs them on foot. And both those units trade up.

Boys don't trade up.

Exactly, a pathetic, lowly, pitiful, weak ork boy (9ppm, 3A S4 AP-1 D1) could never compare to a busted, broken, super OP, way stronger wych (10ppm, 4A S3 AP-1 D1) in terms of trading up for their points cost.

Besides, Wyches are so much faster - their transport can move 12", dump them out, then they can advance and charge turn 1 and effortlessly get into melee with a +1A buff.

No, wait, is that wyches that do that?

But you're forgetting, scotsman, Boyz are big and muscular whereas Wyches are small and weedy. A Wych can trade up by killing a big, bulky guardsman whereas Ork Boyz have to go after Terminators if they want to trade up to something properly bigger than they are.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
It bothers me quite a bit that shoota boyz are now just objectively so much worse than slugga choppa, particularly since it's not like their shootas have any AP on them

This sounds like the exact same problem Kabalites have, compared with Wyches or Wracks.

It's sounding like DE and Orks might have more in common than you'd think.

 vipoid wrote:


This sounds like the exact same problem Kabalites have, compared with Wyches or Wracks.

It's sounding like DE and Orks might have more in common than you'd think.

Kabalites are much better than shoota boyz since with higher BS they actually do something, and can make good use of a special weapon. They can also have min squads of five which are dirt cheap. Trueborns are a fantastic unit, boyz upgraded with specialists mobs remain mediocre.

Wracks are very close to ork choppa boyz in stats.

 vipoid wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
It bothers me quite a bit that shoota boyz are now just objectively so much worse than slugga choppa, particularly since it's not like their shootas have any AP on them

This sounds like the exact same problem Kabalites have, compared with Wyches or Wracks.

It's sounding like DE and Orks might have more in common than you'd think.

I know you are joking, but the success of orks and DE always has been closely interveined with each other. The two armies share many similarities like light open topped vehicles, reliance on both melee and shooting and low durability infantry. When the core game rules favored one they always favored the other as well, and when the core game screwed over one, the other wasn't doing so hot either. Pretty much any time drukhari were a successful army, so were orks.

Lammia wrote:
Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.

Depends on what you define better.

It's easier to be UNDER the effect yes.

But it went from 5++ to 6++. Aka half the save effect.

No, KFF didn't get better, and that does not depend on your definition.

Unless your definition of "better" is "worse", of course, but then I'd kindly ask you to feth off

Kff is arguable. Almost army-wide 5++ for a turn can change the course if a game - especially if you go 2d.

kff is almost undeniably worse than before, but it remains a reasonable option that you may take in some circumstances IMO.

I think what people aren't really realizing about orks is that 9th ed, at least, the fighting part of the game, is AT MAX 2 turns. Whether that's turn 1 and turn 2 or turn 2 and turn 3 is largely up to the player (since boards can be totally stacked with LOS blocking terrain allowing someone to near-completely hide their army, and certain armies like admech have he ability to utterly turtle up and prevent damage for a turn) but basically 'the battle' of 40k comes down to two turns now.

so the ability to drop an army-wide 5++ coupled with the stratagem that gives a whole swathe of units -1 to hit coupled with Ramshackle can make Ork Vehicles just as turtley as the rest of the turtle club (Drukhari and Admech and DW and such) - for one turn only, but if you're trying to execute a "Turn 2 and turn 3" army, that's enough.

It certainly seems to be enough for Drukhari, anyway. "hey what's up im gonna hide my whole army in a big wall of cheap T6 5++ vehicles and then all my glass cannon stuff is gonna jump out turn 2 and wreck your shop" basically obliterated the existing heavy infantry meta.

The fact that orks' 5++ is only one turn is kind of...irrelevant tbh. It only has to be one turn.The main problem with it in my eyes is board position. God i owuld kill for a KFF I could actually get midboard reliably.

 the_scotsman wrote:
kff is almost undeniably worse than before, but it remains a reasonable option that you may take in some circumstances IMO.

I think what people aren't really realizing about orks is that 9th ed, at least, the fighting part of the game, is AT MAX 2 turns. Whether that's turn 1 and turn 2 or turn 2 and turn 3 is largely up to the player (since boards can be totally stacked with LOS blocking terrain allowing someone to near-completely hide their army, and certain armies like admech have he ability to utterly turtle up and prevent damage for a turn) but basically 'the battle' of 40k comes down to two turns now.

so the ability to drop an army-wide 5++ coupled with the stratagem that gives a whole swathe of units -1 to hit coupled with Ramshackle can make Ork Vehicles just as turtley as the rest of the turtle club (Drukhari and Admech and DW and such) - for one turn only, but if you're trying to execute a "Turn 2 and turn 3" army, that's enough.

It certainly seems to be enough for Drukhari, anyway. "hey what's up im gonna hide my whole army in a big wall of cheap T6 5++ vehicles and then all my glass cannon stuff is gonna jump out turn 2 and wreck your shop" basically obliterated the existing heavy infantry meta.

The fact that orks' 5++ is only one turn is kind of...irrelevant tbh. It only has to be one turn.The main problem with it in my eyes is board position. God i owuld kill for a KFF I could actually get midboard reliably.

A++

 Jidmah wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.

Are YOU new here? This just plain isn't true.

I see you mentioned starting just after 5th. That probably explains it. The supply issues are absolutely new (for reasons that should be pretty obvious), and there actually was a time when you could see ... gasp .... non citadel and non-marauder miniatures on the pages of White Dwarf. I think most of it largely changed around the time 'ard boyz died, but there was a time when you could bring kit-bashed models to GW events as long as a majority of the model (there was an actual percent given but I don't recall what) was still mostly GW.

In fact in second and third ed, you could bring Armorcast to tournaments (as long as the rules were permitted).

The no non-GW models is more recent than you might think.

Tycho wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.

Are YOU new here? This just plain isn't true.

I see you mentioned starting just after 5th. That probably explains it. The supply issues are absolutely new (for reasons that should be pretty obvious), and there actually was a time when you could see ... gasp .... non citadel and non-marauder miniatures on the pages of White Dwarf. I think most of it largely changed around the time 'ard boyz died, but there was a time when you could bring kit-bashed models to GW events as long as a majority of the model (there was an actual percent given but I don't recall what) was still mostly GW.

In fact in second and third ed, you could bring Armorcast to tournaments (as long as the rules were permitted).

The no non-GW models is more recent than you might think.

I thought they were talking about stock issues being nothing new.

Also Armorcast was licensed, official, GW-approved product.

Tycho wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc

Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.

Are YOU new here? This just plain isn't true.

I see you mentioned starting just after 5th. That probably explains it. The supply issues are absolutely new (for reasons that should be pretty obvious), and there actually was a time when you could see ... gasp .... non citadel and non-marauder miniatures on the pages of White Dwarf. I think most of it largely changed around the time 'ard boyz died, but there was a time when you could bring kit-bashed models to GW events as long as a majority of the model (there was an actual percent given but I don't recall what) was still mostly GW.

In fact in second and third ed, you could bring Armorcast to tournaments (as long as the rules were permitted).

The no non-GW models is more recent than you might think.

This is the main problem with dakka. People thinking that stuff that happened in 5th edition is still new and not over a decade ago.
3rd edition ended 2004. 17 years ago. Anything that happened then is essentially ancient history now.