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BrianDavion wrote:

 kodos wrote:
there was a reason why 40k sales skyrocket with 8th Edition compared to end of 7th

because the announced "this time we try" and sales increased

and you buy much less stuff from GW because you like them, than if "need" them for the game

didn't Warmachine/Hoards also make a few bad moves right around the time 8th edition came out?

yep, as well as Mantic and FFG
more or less the competition was not ready for GW to get the things together and/or tried to chase after GW players who were all gone as soon as a new Edition dropped while at the same time the original fan base was gone too because the of the direction change

BrianDavion wrote:

 kodos wrote:
there was a reason why 40k sales skyrocket with 8th Edition compared to end of 7th

because the announced "this time we try" and sales increased

and you buy much less stuff from GW because you like them, than if "need" them for the game

didn't Warmachine/Hoards also make a few bad moves right around the time 8th edition came out?

They did but I doubt it would've made much different in the long term.

 kodos wrote:

yep, as well as Mantic and FFG
more or less the competition was not ready for GW to get the things together and/or tried to chase after GW players who were all gone as soon as a new Edition dropped while at the same time the original fan base was gone too because the of the direction change

What mistakes did Mantic make? I only hear people begrudge their previous model quality, which was always pretty dire until recently.

quality was not a reason as in the beginning this was intended

first sets were cheaper models for Warhammer which was comparable in quality by the time (2009) but had less options and was mono pose compared to the multi pose options from GW

quality problems were with the first PVC models that should replace metal parts (but came in either to hard or too soft) which is now replaced with Resin (which is one of the best out there) as better models for higher price sell more than cheap alternatives for GW

by the time of 7th/8th 40k, plastic model quality from Mantic was good (hard plastic Enforcers were better than pre-Primaris Marines)

their mistake was with the Warpath Kickstarter as WP FireFight was explicit made to be an alternative to 40k with input during Alpha Test from mostly GW refugees at the end of 7th

shortly after release those 40k players left for 8th (which was similar in many points) leaving a rule system behind made for them but Deadzone/Warpath players were not happy with and missing sales in models because the big hype was not there any more without them

Ronnie said that trying to chase GW instead focusing on their own stuff was their biggest mistake in the past 10 years

The vast majority of people I know who played KoW only ever used their GW models with the occasional supplementary model if they couldn't find an equivalent they missed out on Back In The Day.

I think TOW perfectly illustrates why WarmaHordes was always doomed. Despite Mantic not having any major issues between 2015 and now when it comes to KoW, despite the quality of their sculpts increasing, the vast majority of KoW players still look set to ditch the system and company entirely for the glee of simply having an OFFICIAL GAMES WORKSHOP(tm) LICENSED RULEBOOK!!!! despite very little expectation from a lot of them that it will actually play any better and the whole reason they're playing KoW being that GW took WHFB out back and shot it once already. It's just such a bizarre kind of brand loyalty.

Other games like Infinity and Malifaux didn't have a major drama over their policies and rules either, but they still lost a lot of their momentum and playerbase the moment GW started looking like they were making a bit of improvement.

PP's screwups definitely sped up the demise of their game and maybe even lost players to other, non-GW systems as a result (hello Guild Ball) but I still think we'd be here typing about 'the fall of WarmaHordes' even if they'd done everything right, although it might've taken a little longer the end was always going to come quickly for them.

kodos wrote: quality problems were with the first PVC models that should replace metal parts (but came in either to hard or too soft) which is now replaced with Resin (which is one of the best out there) as better models for higher price sell more than cheap alternatives for GW

One their main resin casters (possibly their main resin casters) is a personal friend of mine. I shall pass on your compliment!

 Arbitrator wrote:
The vast majority of people I know who played KoW only ever used their GW models with the occasional supplementary model if they couldn't find an equivalent they missed out on Back In The Day.

I think TOW perfectly illustrates why WarmaHordes was always doomed. Despite Mantic not having any major issues between 2015 and now when it comes to KoW, despite the quality of their sculpts increasing, the vast majority of KoW players still look set to ditch the system and company entirely for the glee of simply having an OFFICIAL GAMES WORKSHOP(tm) LICENSED RULEBOOK!!!! despite very little expectation from a lot of them that it will actually play any better and the whole reason they're playing KoW being that GW took WHFB out back and shot it once already. It's just such a bizarre kind of brand loyalty.

Other games like Infinity and Malifaux didn't have a major drama over their policies and rules either, but they still lost a lot of their momentum and playerbase the moment GW started looking like they were making a bit of improvement.

PP's screwups definitely sped up the demise of their game and maybe even lost players to other, non-GW systems as a result (hello Guild Ball) but I still think we'd be here typing about 'the fall of WarmaHordes' even if they'd done everything right, although it might've taken a little longer the end was always going to come quickly for them.

PP was never going to be a direct competitor to GW, neither would Infinity or Mfx, because they're too much of a game to easily translate from 40k. If people move to those games, it's usually because they don't want to play GW fare, and GW releasing only mildly terrible ruleset like the new KillTeam is not going to have a significant effect on say, Infinity players, because they're into playing Infinity, not "not playing 40k" if that makes sense. TOW is in a different situation, because people who make up current KoW/Conquest/etc playerbase are largely the same as those that played or wanted to play WHFB. There's very little new blood that wants to get into Rank and File specifically (at least in my anecdotal experience), so once there's again an Official Way to Play what they always wanted to play...
It's why 2nd ed AoS and even more 8thed 40k had such popularity- they were very minor improvements, but any improvements will be enough to pull back in those people who want to play GW and quit for some specific grievance instead of quitting because they wanted to play other games.

TBH, one of the biggest parts of why those communities seem quite toxic is because they can't just accept that adults can play whatever they want.

The moment one can't accept that the game he or she wants to play doesnt has more players because people just doesnt want to play it, and prefer to play more popular games, and starts calling them beated up wives, or whatever, it presents itself as a spoiled and inmature child.

I prefer Heroes of the Storm. I would never complaint to LoL players how they should play the superior game because LoL did nothing agaisnt Heroes of the Storm just like GW has literally never done anything agaisnt Infinity or Malifaux or Warmahordes. They just offered a more appealing product, whatever that means, to a bigger number of people.

You are not entitled to having other people playing whatever you want to play. If a company cannot stand in their own right, that sucks but is just life. GW is not some kind of monopoly with connections in the goverment lobbyng agaisnt competition or some other kind of shaddy way of doing business, so thats not something you can blame unto them. And thats why many people blames customers. But as I said, when you are blaming people for playing the wrong miniature game, you look like a child.

Seems like this thread has come to an of end discussing GW staff bonuses.