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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Ian Sturrock wrote:
£20K for Nottingham isn't affordable to raise a family on. See other thread -- I turned down £18K for a studio role ten years earlier because even then it wasn't enough to move to Nottingham with my family. Not "oh gosh I wouldn't have enough for luxuries", more like "oh if I took this job I would get more into debt every month just paying basic costs of living."

Defending GW for that specific thing is frankly ridiculous.

They make very lovely miniatures, though.


I have absolutely no idea what the going rate for position like that is. GW "pledges" that they pay at least the 'cost of living' wage, which looks to be just shy of 20K. That wage seems to be slightly higher ( depending on age ) than UK's minimum wage.

I am not qualified to say if this is the kind of job that merits a higher pay and I have no idea what cost of living considerations are like in the UK ( the average pay in Nottigham is 21K ).

In the report they show CEO pay against worker pay, which includes his 'exceptional performance bonus'.



The 25th percentile shows 61:1, which means the bottom 25% of the work force makes roughly 23K or less, half the workforce makes 28K or more, and the top 25% makes 41K or more. It seems prudent to subtract 5K from each of those figures.

I don't know what his responsibilities were so I can't judge. There's more to the story than portrayed, which could include terrible management or poor interpersonal skills.

In general the vast majority of workers need to be paid more, but there are other benefits to consider like the share save scheme, company discounts, etc.

I imagine "game designer" is quite a rare position and going it on your own is quite daunting. Fantasy Flight appears to start 'Game Designer' at 33K USD, which is 24K pounds. Conversions for stuff like this aren't really that clean, but that's probably the best insight we'd have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
So basically a guy actively chose to work for less than a living wage, and somehow it's the corporation's fault?

Seriously this is no different than all of you who pay the current prices. Hewitt is to blame for taking pay he didn't want, and doubly so if his co-parent wasn't supplementing said income.

There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.


I don't know how relevant it is to the discussion at hand, but I don't agree with it on principal. Lots of people are unable to change their jobs through life circumstances of which much is out of their control. It's sort of like looking down on fast food workers, janitors, and so forth - the world runs on their backs and they can't all just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", because then we'd have no one working those jobs and there aren't enough better jobs to employ them. Someone has to do it and they shouldn't be pushed into the mud for it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 17:27:03


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


I mean it sounds like he did? He couldn’t afford to live on what he was being paid so went to work elsewhere…
   
Made in us
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Lord Zarkov wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


I mean it sounds like he did? He couldn’t afford to live on what he was being paid so went to work elsewhere…


yeah, people are just salty that he left and let everyone else know 'hey this company pays like dogshit, don't fall for their gakky corporate propaganda 'we love our employees, we are a passion job!' which is...a perfectly reasonable thing to do? It should absolutely be the norm to let everyone know exactly what salary every company is offering. If you're not someone who owns a large corporation, you should understand that considering discussing previous jobs in detail "Unprofessional" can literally only hurt you. I'm assuming most people on dakka don't own large corporations.

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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I can’t imagine trying to live on such a low income. Even with a £5000 bonus, that’s significantly below the median wage for the UK. Unfortunately, every business pays the minimum it feels it can get away with. Too many people think that working for GW would be their dream job. You want to earn a proper wage, better to get into a field where there’s a recruitment shortage.


Medians are screwed by outliers.


They’re not. They’re really not. That’s why they are used to compare wages.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


Where do they go when there are no more openings for better paying jobs? And how is it still the employee’s fault?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

Pretty much. If jobs are in short supply, and you need money (food, shelter, drugs) you can't be faulted for taking what you can get.

   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


That agency could present itself as petitioning for better wages from your current employer, who you already like for other reasons. Nothing wrong in trying to negotiate a higher salary - I suspect most people undervalue themselves and am not sure why people in this thread seem to think it was wrong for him to try to negotiate his wage.

But as you say, once he failed to do so and chose to stay......

 Just Tony wrote:
There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.


Why do you suppose anyone at all works at the other place instead of choosing to work for Caterpillar for more than double the wages? Are you just that much more clever than anyone else there?

You're not manufacturing a bootstrappy parable by taking a non apples-to-apples situation and pretending otherwise, right?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 19:22:36


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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US jobs generally pay better than UK ones, but get a little more comparable once you add in the standard 25 days holiday you'd get in the UK.
18-20K is really low though, especially for anyone with any experience - that's a room in a house share wage in Nottingham, not something to build a family around.

With the various UK taxes and national insurance, it gives you around £1400 take home pay a month, of which £6-800 appears to be rent going off RightMove in Nottingham for a house share/two bedroom flat.
That's then £125 a week for food/bills/fun...assuming nothing goes to your pension

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 19:33:30


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






While the bs corporations get away with is well established, let's not forget that individuals can be just as misleading, dishonest, and self-serving as they are. We shouldn't inherently trust an individual is giving an accurate account any more than we should do so with a corporation, media outlet, or politician--not only are people fully capable of willfully misrepresenting the truth they are even more capable of misunderstanding it, and the fallibility of human memory heaps more problems on top of that.

It's down to the evidence. What evidence is there that the entity is communicating the truth? If the account was misleading (by accident or otherwise) how would we know?

For the record I am not speaking for or against anyone involved in this.

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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
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Southeastern PA, USA

Lord Zarkov wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


I mean it sounds like he did? He couldn’t afford to live on what he was being paid so went to work elsewhere…


Yeah, I'm not criticizing James...he did exactly what he should have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


Where do they go when there are no more openings for better paying jobs? And how is it still the employee’s fault?


I did say 'explore other opportunities' though, right? Maybe it happens quickly and maybe it doesn't. But if you don't like your situation, develop a plan for leaving. And if you have a viable plan and the ability in a given field...it'll probably work out. Maybe in ways you don't foresee.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 20:06:49


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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Not gonna lie, I was surprised to find out how poorly GWS rules writers are paid. That's roughly equivalent to a full time job at McDonalds, despite the game design/writing one requiring a substantially harder to source and train skillset.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Tastyfish wrote:
US jobs generally pay better than UK ones, but get a little more comparable once you add in the standard 25 days holiday you'd get in the UK.
18-20K is really low though, especially for anyone with any experience - that's a room in a house share wage in Nottingham, not something to build a family around.

With the various UK taxes and national insurance, it gives you around £1400 take home pay a month, of which £6-800 appears to be rent going off RightMove in Nottingham for a house share/two bedroom flat.
That's then £125 a week for food/bills/fun...assuming nothing goes to your pension


Does the 25 days holiday include national holidays? Most jobs in the US might give you Christmas, 4th of July, New Years, and Thanksgiving ( as long as you don't have to work those days ), but those are separate from actual vacation / holiday ( of which most people get none ).

What about sick days?

   
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Keeper of the Flame





West Lafayette, IN

Cronch wrote:It's the employees' fault they get paid like feth, obviously.


Get your nose out of Marx's collected works and follow along for a second. Say for argument's sake NOBODY takes the £20,000 salary job. GW now has to options: raise pay or potentially lose their business. Hewitt taking the job meant he was willing to risk destitution for the job. All on him.

Ian Sturrock wrote:C'mon, exploitative companies REALLY don't need exploited employees to simp for them. The corporation already holds all the cards.


"It's the corporations. They sit in their corporate offices in their corporate headquarters being all... corporation-y. You see?"

Ouze wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


That agency could present itself as petitioning for better wages from your current employer, who you already like for other reasons. Nothing wrong in trying to negotiate a higher salary - I suspect most people undervalue themselves and am not sure why people in this thread seem to think it was wrong for him to try to negotiate his wage.

But as you say, once he failed to do so and chose to stay......

 Just Tony wrote:
There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.


Why do you suppose anyone at all works at the other place instead of choosing to work for Caterpillar for more than double the wages? Are you just that much more clever than anyone else there?

You're not manufacturing a bootstrappy parable by taking a non apples-to-apples situation and pretending otherwise, right?



Has nothing to do with "BoOtStRaPs", before I got hired on full time there I ran a break press for $11 an hour. I chose not to settle.

I also can't speak for everyone's ambitions. I knew a soldier who bypassed well-paying factory work to be a sandwich artist at Subway. Should that work's pay be raised to be equal to those factory jobs because this individual and several like him have no drive to improve or progress?

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

I definitely believe without any doubt there are 2 identical factories near each other doing the exact same machine work, and the ones doing it for $11 an hour aren't doing it for $28 an hour solely because they settled and\or have no drive.

These are both union shops with the same union, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 20:35:00


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Not everyone can improve or progress. It simply is not possible. What most people want is for those people stuck on the lower strata to be paid a true living wage for the area they live in.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Ouze wrote:
Not gonna lie, I was surprised to find out how poorly GWS rules writers are paid. That's roughly equivalent to a full time job at McDonalds, despite the game design/writing one requiring a substantially harder to source and train skillset.
Let's be honest though--a job a McDonalds is going to be WAY more gakky.

What it comes down to is supply of applicants vs demand for applicants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not everyone can improve or progress. It simply is not possible. What most people want is for those people stuck on the lower strata to be paid a true living wage for the area they live in.
Yeah, it's real easy to say 'don't settle' on a conceptual level. On the ground the person 'settling' has no guarantee that they will be able to find another position, that said other position will offer better pay, that the other position will be in the same area, and they may be stuck with low to no income in the meantime.

So some bloke who decides not to 'settle' can easily be risking debt or homelessness for a job that may not even pay better and may not even exist. The concept of worker fault in this matter only works when examining the workers as an aggregate statistic. The way to counteract that is to have the workers organize as a body which can match the collective bargaining power of the businesses they work for--the dreaded union.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 21:21:45


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Tastyfish wrote:
US jobs generally pay better than UK ones, but get a little more comparable once you add in the standard 25 days holiday you'd get in the UK.
18-20K is really low though, especially for anyone with any experience - that's a room in a house share wage in Nottingham, not something to build a family around.

With the various UK taxes and national insurance, it gives you around £1400 take home pay a month, of which £6-800 appears to be rent going off RightMove in Nottingham for a house share/two bedroom flat.
That's then £125 a week for food/bills/fun...assuming nothing goes to your pension


Does the 25 days holiday include national holidays? Most jobs in the US might give you Christmas, 4th of July, New Years, and Thanksgiving ( as long as you don't have to work those days ), but those are separate from actual vacation / holiday ( of which most people get none ).

What about sick days?


In the UK generally public holidays are on top of the 25 but its down to the employer although most will give at least the big days ie chrimbo, new years and sometimes Easter on top of the 25

As for sick leave, anything over a week you generally have to get a doctors note confirming your aren't well enough to work

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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United Kingdom

What most people want is for those people stuck on the lower strata to be paid a true living wage for the area they live in.


Outside some major authoritarian style government that just won't happen in the long run. Trying to control both the markets and individual desires is largely not conducive to a fairly free society. Prior to its collapse the Soviet union had the smallest income inequality by a significant margin, of all the major economies of the time; fat lot of good it did.

A living wage definition is almost invariably tied, directly or indirectly, to the average wage. A living wage is therefore almost guaranteed to have a good number below it.

Jobs with noticeably higher demand than supply and hence low pay are numerous, if you increase their pay by a noticeable amount then you create inflationary pressure and skew the average pay upwards, which in turn pushes up what the 'living wage' is.

Higher skilled/more in demand workers also look to a fair extent to having a 'relatively' higher wage. So when the low paid jobs become higher paid en-masse and/or by a noticeable amount you create a pressure to also push up higher paid jobs wages as they seek to maintain 'their' wage in line with the rest of society.

The average pay increases, and with it what constitutes the 'living wage'. To some extent after a lag period you are just back where you started, but after a period of inflation.

Contrary to a lot of people's opinion, it is not companies forcing you to take a low wage. The people forcing you to take a low wage are all the other people who are also competing for the same job, and will take it for less pay than you would like rather than them have no job. It often strikes me as bizarre that people think it is 'only fair' for someone to be paid a certain amount. But in what world is it fair that I cannot therefore come along and offer to take that job at a lower rate in order to try and get that one position?

If people think companies are paying to little, then instead of complaining that others should do something, those complaining should get up and do what they say others should be doing - start a company and pay a high wage. If it so 'right' and/or 'obvious' then why are they not just doing it?

Does the 25 days holiday include national holidays?


Uk law is 28 days holiday minimum (for most full time workers), but that can include the 8 days bank holidays (if you would get them off). 25 days + bank holidays is qute common, although 30 + bank holidays is not exactly uncommon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an addendum to the above. The most commonly used UK version of the living wage (that doesn't come from the government) in the UK puts the (outside London) wage at just over £18,000 a year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was surprised to find out how poorly GWS rules writers are paid. That's roughly equivalent to a full time job at McDonalds, despite the game design/writing one requiring a substantially harder to source and train skillset.


The problem is that it doesn't just come down to how much skill is required or how many people with that skill there are. It also depends on how much demand there is for said services. There are a damn sight more burger jobs available than there are for game writers.

It may be a very skilled job, with only a dozen other people who could do it. But if there is only 1 job for that skillset then those dozen need to compete against each other, and other things being equal the one who will do it cheapest gets the job.

Funnily that's often how we engage tradesmen - we get multiple quotes for what service we want, and barring some major discrepancy in quality/trust etc we take the lowest price. Odd that. We wish to pay lowest for services, look for bargains and sales and compare shop prices to get the cheapest. Yet when it comes to what we want to be paid we think that shouldn't apply?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 22:45:57


 
   
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Spoken like someone who has never been in the position you're criticizing.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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United Kingdom

Spoken like someone who has never been in the position you're criticizing.


Really? how would you know what position I have or have not had.

Spoken like someone who has no argument, so resorts to fallacies.
   
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Vigo. Spain.

puree wrote:


If people think companies are paying to little, then instead of complaining that others should do something, those complaining should get up and do what they say others should be doing - start a company and pay a high wage. If it so 'right' and/or 'obvious' then why are they not just doing it?


Or you know... start a union, organize themselves, and push the scale towards their benefits as a group instead as individuals, like Denmark?

I mean. Thats exactly why unions (That aren't perfect and as everything can be easely corrupt) were great targets for some of the biggest pro-big corporation goverments of our modern age.

This idea that we are in a system were individuals have any kind of power to change their own outcome at the expense of everybody else fighting agaisnt this mega entities with , in comparison to themselves basically infinite money, is just fantasy. Not because theres not people out there that starting from a "lesser" position reached a better position. Those examples exist at plenty. But the truth is, theres no amount of progression a single individual can make outside the real, real outliers that will justify the hard work he has had to put into the system to be given back basically scraps. Any single worker is extremely underpaid in relation to the value of their work. Thats the objetive truth. Thats why corporations make those profits, and when they don't is not because how much they pay their workers but by mis managements and normally internal ineptitude and corruption.


I always find funny this kind of arguments were corporations and multinationals have 0 power over peoples lives. Is the same kind of people that thinks themselves over marketing. "If people fails for that, is their fault!"

Yeah. Thats why they spend billions of dollars in research and marketing. Because it absolutely does not work, and it is not basically psychological manipulation both at an individual and group level.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 23:05:35


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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£20k is a low salary - and there's not much point going into bat for it when GW were supposedly paying someone in the same or similar position £26k (still not an overly impressive salary - but then I'm unclear how senior we are talking). Stick some inflation adjustments on this £26k back in 2017 or whenever to say £29k today and you wouldn't be a million miles off the average salary in the UK outside London.

Realistically though, this is just employee-manager relations the world over. His manager clearly didn't think he was worth going into bat for. That might be a personality clash, it might be some antipathy, it might be you can have £X for your team over all, so if they'd paid him more they'd have needed to get rid of someone else. Odds are we'll never find out - but it happens all over the world. The only solution is to look around - and if you can find a better paying job, take it.
   
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United Kingdom

Or you know... start a union, organize themselves, and push the scale towards their benefits as a group instead as individuals, like Denmark?


That is possible, though unions already exist, at least here in the UK. But even unions are somewhat limited in fighting against some major overall discrepancy in demand and supply, at least outside of a specific company.

Any single worker is extremely underpaid in relation to the value of their work. Thats the objetive truth


hardly objective. The very definition of value is usually based on demand and supply and what salary you can negotiate in a free market. If someone else is prepared to do what you can but for less money, and there are no jobs left after that for you then you are over valuing your services. If that is not happening due to a lack of free market, then value is anything but 'objectively true'.
   
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puree wrote:
Spoken like someone who has never been in the position you're criticizing.


Really? how would you know what position I have or have not had.

Spoken like someone who has no argument, so resorts to fallacies.
You're right--I'm not making an argument against your position. I don't disagree with the point you are making. Nor do I assume what your situation is, that is you reading into my comment. I am pointing out that the language you are using sounds like judgement-from-afar without any real world experience as to what it is actually like for people in such a position. That's it.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United Kingdom

I always find funny this kind of arguments were corporations and multinationals have 0 power over peoples lives.


I'm not saying they have no power over your lives though.

The worth of your service, and therefore your wage, is based on simple demand and supply - therefore it is other people who are your enemy and not the corporation.

Most people would not get 3 quotes for new windows and take the highest if all else is equal, neither do they deliberately go to the most expensive shop to get the exact same thing they can get cheaper. Our services are exactly the same - if you are offering the same thing as a lot of others when there are not that many jobs around for that skillset then the corporation is not the problem.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Tyel wrote:
£20k is a low salary - and there's not much point going into bat for it when GW were supposedly paying someone in the same or similar position £26k (still not an overly impressive salary - but then I'm unclear how senior we are talking). Stick some inflation adjustments on this £26k back in 2017 or whenever to say £29k today and you wouldn't be a million miles off the average salary in the UK outside London.

Realistically though, this is just employee-manager relations the world over. His manager clearly didn't think he was worth going into bat for. That might be a personality clash, it might be some antipathy, it might be you can have £X for your team over all, so if they'd paid him more they'd have needed to get rid of someone else. Odds are we'll never find out - but it happens all over the world. The only solution is to look around - and if you can find a better paying job, take it.
Or it could have been the quality of the work. Silver Tower, which he "poured his heart and soul into" isn't a well-written ruleset.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I just disagree with this idea where "free" means the jungle's law were everything goes.

And I'm in no way economically leftists but this is too much libertariarism for my tastes.

At the end of the day, living is a strugle, and as individuals people lacks any kind of power. Just as corporations, from middle to big, look for their interests, people should do the same. But believen any given individual has any kind of power... they can navigate a system, individually, but never change it, just play by the rules others have put. For many , I mean, most people, thats enough. You can live a happy life that way. But don't delude yourself believeng you are something special, or "better" than people that has not achieved the same as you. Thats what I personally hate. If you are living the dream because your hard work, more power to you! But stop looking over your shoulders to other people that for whatever reason didnt. Judgamentals donkey-caves are not really needed anywhere.

The "free market" is an illusion. Because by the pure nature of power those with it will always try to change the rules to avoid some other for taking their places.

For something to be truly "free", you need two positions that are born from equality. An individual is no equal to a corporation. A poor individual is no equal to a rich individual. If you offer deadly colisseums I assure you, you'll have many people offering themselves to "work" there. Specially the more desesperate of people with nearly nothing to lose.

Anyway what a tangent.

TLR: Bonus good but GW should pay their workers fairly with the killing they are doing but they are just part of a bigger system designed to give everything to the ones in the top and scraps to the rest so like great Jack Sparrow said "Take what you can, give nothing back"


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Tyel wrote:
£20k is a low salary - and there's not much point going into bat for it when GW were supposedly paying someone in the same or similar position £26k (still not an overly impressive salary - but then I'm unclear how senior we are talking). Stick some inflation adjustments on this £26k back in 2017 or whenever to say £29k today and you wouldn't be a million miles off the average salary in the UK outside London.

Realistically though, this is just employee-manager relations the world over. His manager clearly didn't think he was worth going into bat for. That might be a personality clash, it might be some antipathy, it might be you can have £X for your team over all, so if they'd paid him more they'd have needed to get rid of someone else. Odds are we'll never find out - but it happens all over the world. The only solution is to look around - and if you can find a better paying job, take it.
Or it could have been the quality of the work. Silver Tower, which he "poured his heart and soul into" isn't a well-written ruleset.


I don't say that GW hasn't employed some truly awfull rules designers in the past. But they have also employed many that wrote gak for GW and great stuff outside it.

The rules of GW, I'm pretty sure, are much more a bioproduct of the nature of the Corporation side of GW than more about the proper talent of the ones actually writting the stuff. Is much more easy to writte something good when you are working when you want, relaxed, with a system you are motivated to do, without the pressure of time, or money, or marketing, or dates, where the rules are written as you feel they need to be and not in X way because the higher ups want to sell this new plastic rule with stupid circles and triangles.

And many people forgets that and , I believe, are way too harsh with GW rules writters.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 23:26:31


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






puree wrote:
I always find funny this kind of arguments were corporations and multinationals have 0 power over peoples lives.


I'm not saying they have no power over your lives though.

The worth of your service, and therefore your wage, is based on simple demand and supply - therefore it is other people who are your enemy and not the corporation.

Most people would not get 3 quotes for new windows and take the highest if all else is equal, neither do they deliberately go to the most expensive shop to get the exact same thing they can get cheaper. Our services are exactly the same - if you are offering the same thing as a lot of others when there are not that many jobs around for that skillset then the corporation is not the problem.
What if the windows were broken and leaking water into the house, the quotes get retracted if another customer takes them, and the ability to get new quotes in a reasonable timeframe is not guaranteed?

Also FYI; corporations are composed of people.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 23:21:01


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United Kingdom

You're right--I'm not making an argument against your position. I don't disagree with the point you are making. Nor do I assume what your situation is, that is you reading into my comment. I am pointing out that the language you are using sounds like judgement-from-afar without any real world experience as to what it is actually like for people in such a position. That's it.


Really, what language dictates that? I've flipped burgers in Macdonalds, worked 80 hours a week in a fish factory, I've had banks threatening bailiff over debts, I've watched what little money I had disappear as I tried to raise a child and worry about how to pay for the next car service etc.

I've also spent all my waking hours teaching myself new skills, and taking it on myself to improve my own life rather than whine that others are not doing it for me.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






puree wrote:
You're right--I'm not making an argument against your position. I don't disagree with the point you are making. Nor do I assume what your situation is, that is you reading into my comment. I am pointing out that the language you are using sounds like judgement-from-afar without any real world experience as to what it is actually like for people in such a position. That's it.


Really, what language dictates that? I've flipped burgers in Macdonalds, worked 80 hours a week in a fish factory, I've had banks threatening bailiff over debts, I've watched what little money I had disappear as I tried to raise a child and worry about how to pay for the next car service etc.

I've also spent all my waking hours teaching myself new skills, and taking it on myself to improve my own life rather than whine that others are not doing it for me.
Like I said, I make no assumptions or comments as to what your life is or has been.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
 
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