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yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him. I cannot imagine any list that doesn't include him, being able to reroll psychic tests natively is just so powerful, especially with the +1. Nothing else in the book (besides Magnus) comes close to Ahriman's psychic prowess.

Personally I think an Exalted Sorc is better than a Daemon Prince in this book, but I can see arguments for the Prince too.

Isn't there a new warlord trait called Seeker of shadows? It lets you roll 3d6 and drop the lowest when doing psychic test. I think the ability to spike high and do super smites is even higher if you take this warlord trait. Cult of magic has a warlord trait for rerolling psychic on smites and witchfire as well. We can bring infernal master and get a reroll of one dice anyway. I feel that rerolling a psychic is usually used only when you roll low and fail a psychic test. It isn't meant for fishing for super smites. But rolling 3d6, discard the lowest dice. And combine that with cabal points that can let you add 2 to a psychic test. That could easily get you into super smite territory. You only need a 8 to get to 11 with that. And getting an 8 with 3d6 discard the lowest seems very doable.

Personally, I wouldn't waste the Cabal Points to make a psychic undeniable. I would rather just cast it at so high a value its highly unlikely opponent can deny it.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him. I cannot imagine any list that doesn't include him, being able to reroll psychic tests natively is just so powerful, especially with the +1. Nothing else in the book (besides Magnus) comes close to Ahriman's psychic prowess.

Personally I think an Exalted Sorc is better than a Daemon Prince in this book, but I can see arguments for the Prince too.

Isn't there a new warlord trait called Seeker of shadows? It lets you roll 3d6 and drop the lowest when doing psychic test. I think the ability to spike high and do super smites is even higher if you take this warlord trait. Cult of magic has a warlord trait for rerolling psychic on smites and witchfire as well. We can bring infernal master and get a reroll of one dice anyway. I feel that rerolling a psychic is usually used only when you roll low and fail a psychic test. It isn't meant for fishing for super smites. But rolling 3d6, discard the lowest dice. And combine that with cabal points that can let you add 2 to a psychic test. That could easily get you into super smite territory. You only need a 8 to get to 11 with that. And getting an 8 with 3d6 discard the lowest seems very doable.

8+ on 3d6b2 is just over 68% chance.

68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it? Even with total reroll that Ahriman gives, the chances of getting a super smite on a +1 is probably lower because you need to get a 10, even with that reroll. Ah wait, you can use cabal points to boost that by 2 as well. So what's the chance of rolling a 8 with a 2d6 full reroll ?

I went and did the math myself. With a full reroll, Ahriman has a 65.97% chance of getting a 8 or higher on 2d6 full reroll. Its lower than the 68% chance the seeker of shadows warlord has.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him.

Unless you, y'know, don't want to take him. Or don't like special characters. Or just don't like Ahriman.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it? Even with total reroll that Ahriman gives, the chances of getting a super smite on a +1 is probably lower because you need to get a 10, even with that reroll. Ah wait, you can use cabal points to boost that by 2 as well. So what's the chance of rolling a 8 with a 2d6 full reroll ?

8+ on 2d6 is a 41.67% chance.

So if you reroll 7 or less, you get a 66% chance of 8+.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it? Even with total reroll that Ahriman gives, the chances of getting a super smite on a +1 is probably lower because you need to get a 10, even with that reroll. Ah wait, you can use cabal points to boost that by 2 as well. So what's the chance of rolling a 8 with a 2d6 full reroll ?

8+ on 2d6 is a 41.67% chance.

So if you reroll 7 or less, you get a 66% chance of 8+.

Yup, I just did the math myself too. So a seeker of shadow warlord is actually a better castor than Ahriman. plus if its that crucial a psychic, then I would happily just pay the CP to reroll 3d6 and discard the lowest one more time. And don't forget, we have our infernal master infernal pact which can give us a d6 reroll on almost anything, including one of the dice of a psychic test.

Seeker of shadow is only psychic actions not tests. Ahriman is still awesome. I am actually going to take a break from him in lists just because I have used him in like every list back to 6th. Lol.

I went through that same thing several pages ago re: seekers of shadow. It's only psychic actions, not tests. If it was tests, it would indeed be crazy good, but it isn't. Meaning Ahriman is still far and away the best caster in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him.

Unless you, y'know, don't want to take him. Or don't like special characters. Or just don't like Ahriman.

Well of course. But we're talking about what's the best here, and Ahriman is clearly it. Some things never change, I guess.

Also just so everyone knows what I did was watch the spures and brews video review on my phone. He flips the pages pretty clearly and with the iPhone I just snapped a screen shot. It actually worked pretty good. I don’t think I am allow to post them here. Also I am not going to play with them I just could not wait for my dex to arrive and wanted the full rules to look at now.

I think the sorc vs demon prince is kind of a weird argument. They serve different roles. The DP is best kitted out with a sword, the plate relic and undying form. At that point he is tougher than and his about as hard as a helbrute that everyone seems to like and has 2 psychic powers and gives rerolls and cabal points. I think it's probably fine to skip wings; he works better as counter-charge.

I'm probably going to usually run infernal/DP/Ahriman. I also kinda like the shaman, less as a main caster and more as a zoomy way to get psychic secondaries done. Wish he could warptime himself =/ (though he can with a relic I suppose).

I tend to think you're going to want 12 or so casts per turn. The above. 3 units of rubrics and 2 units of termies does that pretty well. Feels like a good core.

 xeen wrote:
Seeker of shadow is only psychic actions not tests. Ahriman is still awesome. I am actually going to take a break from him in lists just because I have used him in like every list back to 6th. Lol.

What its only psychic actions? ... zzzz.... disappointed..

Yeah, shaman not having access to discipline of vengeance makes him kinda limited.

People like the helbrute because it has a MM as well as fighting decently. The DP costs more, doesn't have a MM, and doesn't survive well without the investment of 2CP worth of warlord traits/relics. And even with that, it's still going to die pretty easily if it's in a place where it can be shot on its own, so it needs to have something protecting it. It's in that weird place where it really needs to be fighting and getting hit to justify its higher cost over the exalted sorc...but if it is, it's probably dying. And it's in a book that in general doesn't want to be getting stuck in. I don't think it's terrible, I think you just really need a plan for how to use it so it doesn't just end up being a more expensive, clunkier Exalted Sorc.

Well, although TS generally doesn't want to get stuck in. But there may be situations when the opponent seeks us out in combat. Or maybe there is that one squad left hiding behind obscuring terrain on an objective. So, I can see the DP coming into some play.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, shaman not having access to discipline of vengeance makes him kinda limited.

Yeah... threads like this remind me that I'm wired differently.

I want to take a Tzaangor Shaman because I think he looks cool and I love the model...

Doing stuff because it's cool is totally fine. But this is a tactics thread, so it's probably normal to expect people to talk about tactics, not what they think looks cool.

Yeah but there's an element of "X is slightly better than Y, so Y is dead to me!" rather than any attempt to try to find a role for Y.

H.B.M.C., your not wrong, and I think our favorite goat boy on disk has a good use in this army.

1. He is the cheapest chr we have.
2. He is a psyker so he can do psycic actions.
3. He can buff tzaangors up to hitting on 3's.
4. He is incredibly fast for his cost.
5. He is in the elite section, not hq, so he isn't taking up a contested slot.

I plan on running one seriously with my chaos Spawn. His job will be to give them their 4++ save and if that's no longer needed he can always do psycic actions or grab table quarters for engage on all fronts or any other number of things.

Also there is the relic you can give him to know another spell and it can be from either table. That and the great sorcerer strat for 1cp to let him cast twice...

I think he is a very good utility pick that has potential to surprise people for 70pts.


Edit :

I also should point out that even though this is a tactics thread it is perfectly reasonable for someone to come into it looking for ways to make the model they love more viable. Looking at units from the perspective of "OK, this guy isn't the best at this, but what can he offer my army..." is a perfectly reasonable way of looking at things.

Using the Shaman example, he isnt going to beat an Exalted Sorcerer in spell casting/cabal points generated/damage output potential/or army boosting abilities (reroll 1's aura vs tzaangors +1 to hit). But I don't see it as a fair comparison, as mentioned above the shaman isn't trying to take that roll. He has a different agenda in the army.

Hmm, I just realised. Warpflamers are now 12 inches. You can come in from reserve with a full warpflame kitted out rubric squad and barbecue the heck out of an enemy unit at 12 inches.

Or you could warptime or dark matter crystal a squad of rubrics into within flame range and just let loose. Sounds pretty tasty!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I feel that 9th edition is about board control. I was thinking about how a Tsons army can exert such board control given we don't really want to get into melee and our terminators are movement 5. This was what I came up with.

We put a 10 man rubric squad forward of our deployment during deployment behind obscuring terrain, somewhere close but not in the midboard, and make sure to keep it still out of charge range. Our characters are on disks. with a big bloc of 10 occult terminators behind obscuring on turn 1.

We put another 10 man rubric squad with flamers into reserve with webway infiltration.

When we get to move on turn 1.

Move up the 10 man rubric which was already in a forward position. They should be now within smite range and inferno bolter range too (hopefully double tap range even). Use dark matter crystal to teleport up the 10 man terminator block to the midfield where they got lots of targets for their guns and smite. Our characters now have a 10 man rubric plus a 10 man terminator block they can fly advance move up to and then let loose with their psychic.

Run up a 5 man spawn and then warptime it for a 14 inch movement foward. If we don't plan to charge anything, advance it for a further d6 as well.

Now we have a pretty decent chunk of our army that was previously behind obscuring now suddenly somewhere near the midfield and hopefully within range to smite and shoot. Plus it clears some space in the midboard for the 10 man rubric in the webway to come down on turn 2 and absolutely barbecue something.

Volkite with -1 AP +1 S reroll cuz core

5x3 termis

rubric in rhinos

Ahriman, DP and sorcerers

Seeker of Shadows, no. But Athenaen Scrolls lets you take a psychic test on a 3D6, game-long, for one power.

Can I check with those who have seen the book? Not quite sure about this. Can we take a relic on a Champion for 1CP ? And what are the relics we can take? Because Death Guard had this in its codex.

Would love to take Helm of the third eye on a champion if possible. If not then dark matter crystal. One of these two.

I am looking at a list with only two Tsons characters, of which one is Ahriman. So, I am kinda thin on characters to hold relics...

Aspiring Sorceres in Rubric/Scarab units can take relics, but they are limited to the 1 pistol and 3 staff relics.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him.

Unless you, y'know, don't want to take him. Or don't like special characters. Or just don't like Ahriman.

Wait - thats heresy!
Ahriman did nothing wrong.

Aspiring Sorceres in Rubric/Scarab units can take relics, but they are limited to the 1 pistol and 3 staff relics.

All of them are rather unspectacular as well, won't use them a lot if at all. :(


Btw Magnus needed a 12 for his super Smite before, which was essentially a 10+, now he just needs a 11+ what comes to a 8+ considering his +3. Not bad, especially when he auto-casts smiles and can reroll anything under 8 if he does one of the first smites.

With all the buffs on casting we get now (CP +1, CP +2, CP autocast, reroll with Magnus / Ahriman, full smites for Aspiring Sorcerers, +1 for all casts and some smite related buffs Smite-spam seems quite doable now.


Gonna have my first TS game today, plan was:

Magnus, Ahriman, 2 Princes, Exalted on disc
3 x 5 Bolter Rubrics, 1 x 5 Flamer Rubrics
10 Scarabs

That's 22 CP for my first turn, but not sure if I want to go Time Cult for tankyness or duplicity for flexibility.
Cult of Magic seems kinda pointless, now that devastating sorcery got nerfed and Astral blast has less range.
Might go for two cults with 2 detachments, basic idea was to spam as many MW as possible and hope I don't loose too many models.
Will go against necrons.

Hope my poor boy Magnus will survive long enough to matter. ^^
Think I'm gonna infiltrate the flamer Rubrics and depending on my opponents dakka keep Magnus in reserve.

Oh and I'm gonna use Mutate Landscape for sure! Looks like a pretty solid bet with Risen Rubricae / webway/ Sourcerous Facade to get easy 9-12 points with a good chance to max out.
Also it can still be combined with raise the banners which will give you easy 20-30 points for those 2 Secondaries with the right deployment.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Seeker of Shadows, no. But Athenaen Scrolls lets you take a psychic test on a 3D6, game-long, for one power.

The scrolls seems like a great combo with Firestorm to get that unmodified 9+

 Grotrebel wrote:


Gonna have my first TS game today, plan was:

Magnus, Ahriman, 2 Princes, Exalted on disc.....

I believe you can only take one prince, right?

shogun wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:


Gonna have my first TS game today, plan was:

Magnus, Ahriman, 2 Princes, Exalted on disc.....

I believe you can only take one prince, right?

Can can only take one per detachment correct. But if you take two detachments you can take two

On another note, compare Magnus to Bel'Lakor. Same movement (Fly), WS BS Str, T, and 4++, Bel has 2 less attacks, but has a sweep for more against hoards, and his big swing ignores invul and is more powerful then Magnus. He has 2 less wounds, but that is actually an advantage as that is not much more survivability but allows him to actually hide behind Obscuring Terrain. He is also a psyker, with two casts. Finally he has the -1 and no re-roll to hit, -1 to wound and -1 leadership to enemies. Magnus has one additional cast (knows all the powers, but I don't find that super useful), +2 to cast (+3 with the legion trait), the super smite (useful once against closest unit), -1 damage, re-roll deny, and the cabal stuff for synergy. Both have re-roll 1's aura, but Magnus gets one command re-roll all hits ability.

Neither have shooting. So Magnus is a better caster and that is about it. Bel'Lakor is better at close combat by a mile and SOOOOOO much more survivable. And his casting is not really that much lower than Magnus. Yet he is 90! points cheaper!

I hate to really be piling it on on Magnus (I think this is like my third post disparaging him) but I just can't wrap my head around how anyone can think he is remotely worth 450 points. If he was 360 (same as Bel'Lakor) I think there would be an argument for him. Also what would be really awesome is an FAQ reducing his wounds to 16 so he can hide (I know they are not going to do that, lol).

I would love to see any people who use him put their experience here so we can get some in game data. I won't be able to play for like a month, so hopefully others will get some good games in and get some experience will all of the ideas tossed around on this thread.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it?

Is super smite more valuable than Baleful or Firestorm ( Magnus aside )? A D6 is pretty swingy. I'd rather go fishing on Baleful or Firestorm.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it?

Is super smite more valuable than Baleful or Firestorm ( Magnus aside )? A D6 is pretty swingy. I'd rather go fishing on Baleful or Firestorm.

Can you still CP a Smite damage roll? That would up its reliability a lot.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it?

Is super smite more valuable than Baleful or Firestorm ( Magnus aside )? A D6 is pretty swingy. I'd rather go fishing on Baleful or Firestorm.

Can you still CP a Smite damage roll? That would up its reliability a lot.

You know...I'm not actually sure. Does it count as a damage roll?

Though even if you can the other spells gives more freedom of targeting.

What's the odds of 5MW on 5+ for 9 dice? That'd snipe a lot of characters.

You can not reroll a smite output roll with a cp. Smite is rolling for a number of mortal wounds, not a damage roll.

The 10 man rubric with flamers has potential to be interesting, thats for sure.