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You can't swap them unfortunately, you have to either pay another +5 points to ge both (exalted sorc) or replace the bolter (term sorc). In neither case is it really worth it I don't think. Though I guess it isn't a terrible way to boost your ES' points a little bit if you need to get him over a certain hump for while we stand.
yukishiro1 wrote: You can't swap them unfortunately, you have to either pay another +5 points to ge both (exalted sorc) or replace the bolter (term sorc). In neither case is it really worth it I don't think. Though I guess it isn't a terrible way to boost your ES' points a little bit if you need to get him over a certain hump for while we stand.
Damn ! I misread that !
That's sad, our base sorcerers can't even play with the new toy. Plus there's no bonus for having multiple melee weapons on our Exalted. But we can take a force axe on our termi sorcerer ?
Is it me or the data sheet of our Codex isn't written very well ? Like for example, when it's noted we can take one more combi-weapon on a vehicle (rhino, vindicators, etc...) the profile for those weapons aren't written in the weapon part of the sheet ?
To say nothing about rhinos not being able to fit cultist nor the bird boys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, here goes my first list using the new Codex:
It's by no mean a competitive list (as you can surely see). But it's a list made using mostly what I have, what I like and what I want to try out.
I wanted to try building around the Cult of prophecy WT and Relic. The DP will go ahead with the Rubric filled Rhino, the Mutaliths and the Disc birds as a distraction and to score some early points. Using the combo Warpweave (can't be charged at 9' or more) + Whispers (move 6' when charged) to hopefully survive a bit longer and have a good laugh .
Meanwhile I'll use the Brazier relic and the dice from Divine the future to boost the Hellbrutes in the back and pepper the opponent with the Scarabs.
I don't expect to win but I expect to have fun ! I think I'll take Engage, Mutate landscape (for the DP), and most likely wrath of Magnus.
Any thoughts ?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/14 21:28:18
I think the question is less cabal points in the abstract and more how many you're going to have after a turn or two. People relying on a bunch of 5-man rubrics with icons for point generation are going to find that those 20 points that looked so great on paper quickly become 10 points. Whereas the 3 you get from an exalted sorc are presumably going to stick around most if not all of the game, unless you really screw up.
I am curious what people think of the mutation cult power. You don’t need to see the unit just the terrain feature. So can use against units close behind obscuring. Half move the -1 advance and charge. You can really pin down a big combat unit like terminators of all flavors to keep them out of the middle. Big anvil units of infantry seem to be in style now. Thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am curious what people think of the mutation cult power. You don’t need to see the unit just the terrain feature. So can use against units close behind obscuring. Half move the -1 advance and charge. You can really pin down a big combat unit like terminators of all flavors to keep them out of the middle. Big anvil units of infantry seem to be in style now. Thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 00:36:24
I am curious what people think of the mutation cult power. You don’t need to see the unit just the terrain feature. So can use against units close behind obscuring. Half move the -1 advance and charge. You can really pin down a big combat unit like terminators of all flavors to keep them out of the middle. Big anvil units of infantry seem to be in style now. Thoughts?
Hmm, interesting. It should certainly work. Does it work on Death Guard though? I remember Death Guard has this rule Inexorable advance which ignores movement modifiers ? It should definitely work on other infantry Anvils. Although, not sure if its worthwhile to go into cult of mutation just for that.
It's probably the best psychic power in the book. Problem is that the cult is hot garbage otherwise, so you're basically paying 2CP to get access to the power by taking a patrol. And I'm not sure people are going to find that worth it, when duplicity and prophecy are already so attractive.
I am liking more and more the idea of a 5 man spawn unit with Weaver of fates cast on it to give it a 4++ and backed up by a Daemon Prince with the warlord trait from Cult of Scheming (Grand Schemer). This gives it the obsec aura. So now, both the DP and the Chaos Spawn are obsec.
They are both good in combat and if both are obsec and have a 4++ save, that's a headache on an objective that you absolutely have to deal with. If you don't deal with them, they can then move into enemy deployment zone and charge, which is going to create even more problems. With warp time, the Spawn unit effectively has a 14 inch move and a flying DP has either a 12 inch move, or 11 inch move with Aethestride. There are interesting relics you can give to a DP too.
I am liking the idea of Cult of Scheming for a second patrol detachment. Would also like to talk about infernal master.
I think the Infernal master makes a perfect character to hold the DMC (the crystal that yeets). Firstly, the crystal goes off in the command phase and it only has a 6 inch range. So if you want to hide that big bloc of Terminators well back, you need another character with the crystal who is similarly well back deep in your own deployment lines safely. Even with a disc or with fly, it might not be easy to fly that person up to where you want after you have used the crystal.
Also, the yeet spell from cult of Duplicity also has a 6 inch range. So, now if you want to yeet another unit with that spell, you have to do that after you move. Which then means after you move, you also need to stay well back in safety. (Because the whole point of the yeeting is to yeet units well back forward to the midfield).
The infernal master is thus the idea castor to hold the crystal and cast the yeet spell. Firstly, he only has 1 psychic. Unlike most other castors we have. Secondly, he has infernal pact, many of which are very long range compared to psychic spells, so he is more likely to be in range with infernal pact. Even if he isn't in range because your units ended up all so far forward. He has one infernal pact he can do all game long called glimpse of eternity which is a great pact to use. It essentially gives us a free reroll. Thirdly, he is an infantry character. This is more important than you think because the tzaangor shaman is not infantry. So as an infantry character, the infernal master can also be called upon to perform actions for missions if need be. Be it psychic actions or raise the banners or anything else that might require actions. Last of all, is that the infernal pact is cast in the command phase. So you can cast an infernal pact in the command phase, and still perform a psychic action in the psychic phase. So the infernal master doesn't lose anything from performing a psychic action. Pretty nifty huh!
I love the infernal master. So much utility. I like the +1 str on shooting for my leviathan which puts storm cannon to 8 and bombard to 9 both are very meaningful. Or get the re-roll. Also he is prime the use the 4 cabal points for 1 CP. at only 90 points can’t see why not to take him
xeen wrote: I love the infernal master. So much utility. I like the +1 str on shooting for my leviathan which puts storm cannon to 8 and bombard to 9 both are very meaningful. Or get the re-roll. Also he is prime the use the 4 cabal points for 1 CP. at only 90 points can’t see why not to take him
That +1 Str in shooting is essentially worth a 2CP strategem wrath of the wronged if you apply it well. Have a Volkite contemptor and shooting at T6 or T7 ? That +1 str is now worth 2CP. Have a Forgefiend with 8 shots of str 8 Hades autocannon shooting at a T8 knight? Now its a Str 9 shot. Have a big block of Occult terminators firing into a bunch of T4 primaris, or need to shoot orcs? Now your infernal bolter shots are Str 5. There is almost zero situations where it isn't useful. (Unless you have nothing meaningful to shoot).
And the power is 24 inch range too. So your infernal master can be well back and likely still be in range to cast it on most of your stuff.
Two games Saturday, won by a 45 point margin both times, but it was against weaker codexes (an 8th edition one and an early 9th edition one). Sisters/GKnights/AdMech/Dark Eldar would currently worry me, first two as they have strong anti psyker and the last two as they bring so much for 2,000 points.
Overall it feels like a very high damage output army with both the psychic and shooting phases being strong and the melee phase also being ok with the right units.
Survivability is good but also depends on terrain and your opponent.
Speaking of the right units, Scarabs are fantastic, if only you could take more than 3 units!
I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons
dreadlybrew wrote: I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons
Both are joke models: a Heldrake literally does 4 Baleflamer hits per turn at 165 pts whilst a Forgefiend is a wannabe Volkite Contemptor that deals considerably less damage whilst degrading and bot being able to shoot in melee if tagged. BLEH
dreadlybrew wrote: I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons
Let us know how it goes. I am not quite sold on these yet, but maybe I am underestimating them.
The heldrake at least moves fast and can toggle aircraft, so it does something in an army that otherwise mostly lacks fast moving pieces. I definitely wouldn't take more than one, and I don't think it's the most competitive choice, but I can kinda see the attraction. Forgefiends unfortunately just feel kinda bad compared to contemptors or helbrutes.
Really? They're both "joke models" because they don't stack up against a type of Dread most people don't have, and most people don't have ready access to in the first place?
I do think that any vehicle or big monster a Tsons list runs, that can serve to divert fire away from our Occult terminators is going to be useful even if it gets blown up on turn 1. Our Occults are going to do a lot of the heavy lifting in the list because they can shoot, can do psychic, they are durable and they can fight in close combat, and they are obsec... like wow. But they will end up attracting a lot of attention, so any other vehicle that we run that might attract enemy fire away from our Terminators, to me is a good thing.
So, I would run at least one or two vehicles just to draw enemy fire away from my Occult terminators.
In fact... this seems like an absolutely crazy idea. But I wonder how feasible it would be to run a super aggressive list based on a Land Raider. lol Now, hear me out, I haven't lost my marbles yet.
We do the usual, we crystal a 10 man Occult terminator squad up turn 1 near to a risen rubric squad. We then use the cult of duplicity spell to teleport up another occult squad. We fly up our characters with wings and dics up to join them. And then, as the finale, we push up a Land Raider with our last Occult squad in it 10 inches onto an objective in the midfield as well.
The Land Raider is going to be irritating to kill, it has 16W, T8, 2+ save and a 5++ save and I can blow smoke screen for a -1 to hit. Some armies will have nightmares trying to kill such a thing. It will shoot its guns and serve as a massive distraction carnefix. More importantly, I have 5 Occult terminators in it who now have a 9+d=d6 charge range. So, turn 1, I have pushed a rubric squad, a Land Raider and 3 occult terminator squads into the midfield. That could literally be my entire army (or most of it). An opponent is going to have a headache dealing with everything lol.
I would push the LR onto a separate objective than the rest of my deathball though, because a LR blowing up in the middle off my army is going to be nasty. So, one LR with the Occults in it can go for for example the left midfield objective, while the rest with their teleports and stuff all go for the right midfield objective. Our opponent doesn't have good options because even if he destroys that LR, a squad of 5 terminators will pop out onto the objective. And if he devotes so much shooting into my LR, that means he won't have much shooting left to go into my 10 man Occult squad, which is the true lynchpin of my entire army.
Maybe I have lost all my marbles... I am actually discussing using a Land Raider... lol If I run this, I would definitely need an Infernal Master for the Glimpse of Eternity reroll though. Losing a 40 point terminator if I roll a 1 getting out of a burning Land Raider is going to hurt! And I think its possible to run a chaos spawn unit in such an army without needing to buff them with weaver of fates. I mean, when you have a LR and 20 terminators and a rubric squad in the midfield... will you really be shooting at a chaos spawn squad with your heavy weapons? lol
If I do run a LR, people can't say I am running an oppressive list... lol But it has surprising synergy in the strategy of being aggressive in the midfield and being a big distraction carnefix. hmm...
This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2021/08/16 02:01:03
Heldrakes are amazing for their points. In the meta of admech flyers they do a pretty decent job of knocking them out of the sky.
The trick will be getting them into hover mode so you can charge them turn 1.
My old super dinos list had 2 heldrakes before they were aircraft. This let them hold objectives and tie up most of the front line of my opponent turn 1with fall backs and forcing them to shoot at this stupid bird.
Now they are damage 2. 4 against aircraft.(if only that had been fliers)
Vector strikes also have a mortal wound place. Im going tonplay a few games with the tech and get back to you. There is also something to be said about the hades autocannon being str 8 ap -2 2 damage on the flier too. But the auto hitting is just too cherry.
dreadlybrew wrote: I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons
Both are joke models: a Heldrake literally does 4 Baleflamer hits per turn at 165 pts whilst a Forgefiend is a wannabe Volkite Contemptor that deals considerably less damage whilst degrading and bot being able to shoot in melee if tagged. BLEH
No, don't discount them.
You're going to WANT Heldrakes when you see the number of planes Orks are packing. The flamer also shoots into combat.
Forgefiends are awesome plasma boats. Maybe a little expensive with the cannons and plasma head, but still a ton of hot death. A full plasma FF kills 2 to 3 Gravis and 2 terminators if you kick it to S8. Given that you're killing 80 to 100 points each time for 155 is not bad at all.
dreadlybrew wrote: I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons
Both are joke models: a Heldrake literally does 4 Baleflamer hits per turn at 165 pts whilst a Forgefiend is a wannabe Volkite Contemptor that deals considerably less damage whilst degrading and bot being able to shoot in melee if tagged. BLEH
No, don't discount them.
You're going to WANT Heldrakes when you see the number of planes Orks are packing. The flamer also shoots into combat.
Forgefiends are awesome plasma boats. Maybe a little expensive with the cannons and plasma head, but still a ton of hot death. A full plasma FF kills 2 to 3 Gravis and 2 terminators if you kick it to S8. Given that you're killing 80 to 100 points each time for 155 is not bad at all.
Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots
I assume Daedalus is buffing the forgefiend with Malefic Maelstrom. Definitely warps the points comparison if that's the case but the Infernal Master has other stuff he can do at the same time as well (the 24" range on pacts gives you soooo much more freedom than Dark Apostles get).
KurtAngle2 wrote: Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots
+1S buff from Infernal Master
To ONE unit for 3D3 (i.e. 6 shots) shots...I'd rather have the Infernal Master cast the dice reroll and -1 Charge/Advance than a +1S buff on a single model unit with relatively few shots
If you really want a forgefiend you take the Hades cannon version IMO, the plasma is pulling you in two different directions because not being core it can't take advantage of any range-based synergies, but it can't be off on its own either because if it gets tagged it gets totally shut down. At least the butcher cannon version can shoot into melee with 8 shots and fight with 5 vaguely decent attacks.
Though at that point it really is looking like a bad contemptor - which it kinda looks like no matter what, TBH.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 21:09:43
yukishiro1 wrote: If you really want a forgefiend you take the Hades cannon version IMO, the plasma is pulling you in two different directions because not being core it can't take advantage of any range-based synergies, but it can't be off on its own either because if it gets tagged it gets totally shut down. At least the butcher cannon version can shoot into melee with 8 shots and fight with 5 vaguely decent attacks.
Though at that point it really is looking like a bad contemptor - which it kinda looks like no matter what, TBH.
Also the Volkite Contemptors being CORE can actually benefit from one of the strongest relics you can possibly have for them (Egleighen's Orrery), meaning that you literally bypass every defensive rule bar old style FNP rolls
KurtAngle2 wrote: Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots
+1S buff from Infernal Master
To ONE unit for 3D3 (i.e. 6 shots) shots...I'd rather have the Infernal Master cast the dice reroll and -1 Charge/Advance than a +1S buff on a single model unit with relatively few shots
It comes down to the priority at the time and the use cases within the army. Some days you're going to really want flat 3 damage - especially in mirror matches ( they'll toss up -1D, but you pulled it out of them ). You can live without it, but if you have it there is a consideration to be made.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote: Also the Volkite Contemptors being CORE can actually benefit from one of the strongest relics you can possibly have for them (Egleighen's Orrery), meaning that you literally bypass every defensive rule bar old style FNP rolls
Right, but ignoring damage reduction when shooting W3 models with a D2 gun won't matter so much. Shooting at Terminators means a bunch of anemic D2 followed by a couple MW. That isn't to say take FF over Contemptor/Orrey, but there's a time and a place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 21:49:37
KurtAngle2 wrote: Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots
+1S buff from Infernal Master
To ONE unit for 3D3 (i.e. 6 shots) shots...I'd rather have the Infernal Master cast the dice reroll and -1 Charge/Advance than a +1S buff on a single model unit with relatively few shots
It comes down to the priority at the time and the use cases within the army. Some days you're going to really want flat 3 damage - especially in mirror matches ( they'll toss up -1D, but you pulled it out of them ). You can live without it, but if you have it there is a consideration to be made.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote: Also the Volkite Contemptors being CORE can actually benefit from one of the strongest relics you can possibly have for them (Egleighen's Orrery), meaning that you literally bypass every defensive rule bar old style FNP rolls
Right, but ignoring damage reduction when shooting W3 models with a D2 gun won't matter so much. Shooting at Terminators means a bunch of anemic D2 followed by a couple MW. That isn't to say take FF over Contemptor/Orrey, but there's a time and a place.
Who the feth plays 3W models spam that can't be efficiently killed by D2 weapons anyway, the real counter to volkites are 2+ armor and -1 Damage (the latter of which is completely spammed in most codices and profiles) and with such relic you are giving a giant middle finger to resilent -1D platforms that are going to get blasted off the table
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 22:12:52
Being able to put -1AP on a volkite contemptor for a CP is interesting too; it's usually not a great use of a point but if you have a fully buffed volkite contemptor that's going into something with a 2+ that you can take to a 3+ instead, that suddenly becomes quite attractive as a trump card to pull out when you really need it.
Who the feth plays 3W models spam that can't be efficiently killed by D2 weapons anyway, the real counter to volkites are 2+ armor and -1 Damage (the latter of which is completely spammed in most codices and profiles) and with such relic you are giving a giant middle finger to resilent -1D platforms that are going to get blasted off the table
Deathguard, Thousand Sons & Dark Angels terminators, Ork warbikes, Gravis, Admech ( if the nerfs ever make Kataphrons endure ), Court of the Archon, Spawn, Killa Kans, Skorpekhs & Wraiths, Mortifiers
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 22:58:05
.
I am not quite sold on these yet, but maybe I am underestimating them. 
