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If GW wasn’t so predatory, it would do preorders about 3 months ahead of time so that if they got in a large number, they’d have time to fill all those preorders at the point of release.

I expect we’ll see this more from them, it’s about the 4th time they’ve expanded the initial lot (Shadow Armageddon, Indominus, this).

I don’t see it stopping or reducing the scalping, but possibly make it worse. The scalpers buy up the current stock, and now you have to either wait on your hands for three months (and I imagine several people will just “get bored” or frustrated waiting for it and cancel), or give in and buy it from scalpers at the higher price.

Anecdotal, or in today's language; My truth: But I'm more than happy to wait a month or two. I collect and paint, so this suits me well.

I'd much rather a large stock replenished periodically as a starter set for a games system, (a core entry game at that), but there you go.

 Stormonu wrote:
If GW wasn’t so predatory, it would do preorders about 3 months ahead of time so that if they got in a large number, they’d have time to fill all those preorders at the point of release.

I expect we’ll see this more from them, it’s about the 4th time they’ve expanded the initial lot (Shadow Armageddon, Indominus, this).

I don’t see it stopping or reducing the scalping, but possibly make it worse. The scalpers buy up the current stock, and now you have to either wait on your hands for three months (and I imagine several people will just “get bored” or frustrated waiting for it and cancel), or give in and buy it from scalpers at the higher price.

How is doing preorders 3 months ahead of time any better than orders taking a few extra months to be shipped? Either way you're waiting. I like the current method, as I don't want to have to wait for every new release. The current method (besides for a few standout cases), you do orders on sturday, you get the product the following Saturday. I wouldn't want to order everything months ahead of time, that's crazy.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
"the scalpers who do buy the set find that a significant segment of their resale market as already got the product at marked price, in a needs merely to wait for shipping to catch up"

I don't see many people buying this knowing they have to wait months to get it. So if someone wants it while it's still relevant, they're still going to have to buy from the scalpers. And there's no less incentive for the scalpers to buy up as much as they can. It'll still sell.

its a starter set, when would it not be relevant? why would it stop being relevant because it takes a few weeks to get to you? its not like the models inside have a shelf life that expires.

They said months, not weeks. Will you order this now if you won't get it for several months? I doubt many people will.

I wasn't intrested in the box set myself (don't collect or plan to collect either faction), if/when i get into KT it will be via the stand alone box, but thats a cop-out answer, so to answer the question asked:


Yes, I would wait 2 months to get it at £125 instead of 2 weeks at £300 (or whatever the normal and scalper prices are). because I have limited funds i can dispose of into plastic crack, so I want to maximise ROI, and spending twice as much for the same is not that. for that extra money I could get MORE plastic crack.

I dunno, I think i'm older than the median age of most warhammer players, maybe my impulse control is better than the best.

 Da Boss wrote:
Imagine, making enough stock to meet demand. This is some revolutionary, market leader gak.

You say that, but it doesn't seem to be doing them any damage.

I don't condone it mind.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Imagine, making enough stock to meet demand. This is some revolutionary, market leader gak.

You say that, but it doesn't seem to be doing them any damage.

I don't condone it mind.

GW might be by this point, sadly, way too big too fail.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Imagine, making enough stock to meet demand. This is some revolutionary, market leader gak.

You say that, but it doesn't seem to be doing them any damage.

I don't condone it mind.

GW might be by this point, sadly, way too big too fail.

history is littered with the corpses of companies "too big to fail". GW is perfectly capable of killing itself if it isnt careful.

however, its not like the demand for GW products is a static, easy to predict thing. if it was, we'd not be having this discussion.

Any firm can fall apart, even Disney could collapse in on itself. Heck who remembers Kodak - they were once THE name in photography film production. They were huge and had a far reaching grasp. Digital came along and Kodak were not fast enough to change and now they are a shadow of their former selves supplying an ever more niche market of film photographers as digital has taken over entirely. Sure film is unlikely to vanish and Kodak have survived, but they are nothing like they were and could easily have fallen entirely.


So yep firms can fail and sometimes they don't even have to do anything wrong or be miss managed. A supply issue with plastic; a national outcry; a sudden competitor that just undercuts them and does everything better etc...

There are loads of ways firms can dwindle, fall and implode or fragment or such. History is full of them.

GW are big but they could still fall; though I honestly hope they do not. I love what they produce and right now they are a powerful force at recruiting new wargamers into the hobby (a lot of other firms are just recycling existing customres/fans)

 Overread wrote:
Any firm can fall apart, even Disney could collapse in on itself. Heck who remembers Kodak - they were once THE name in photography film production. They were huge and had a far reaching grasp. Digital came along and Kodak were not fast enough to change and now they are a shadow of their former selves supplying an ever more niche market of film photographers as digital has taken over entirely. Sure film is unlikely to vanish and Kodak have survived, but they are nothing like they were and could easily have fallen entirely.

It’s worse than that. Kodak had amazing digital camera tech years before anyone else. Their R&D was cutting edge. But as a business they didn’t do much with the tech as a huge chunk of their revenue came from selling and developing film, not cameras. They didn’t want to change, and the rest is as you say.

Yeah there's more than a few tales of firms who have sat on new tech and not pushed for change because of the huge investment and change to their working operation. Which is fine until someone else gets the same or similar tech and pushes their way into the market.


Sony unsettled both Canon and Nikon a few years back as Sony wanted a serious slice of the camera market. So they sunk insane money into sensor development to the point where they outstripped the other two. Canon stuck to their guns; Nikon just bought sony sensors to put in their cameras. The result is that Canon and Nikon now have to share some serious percentages of the market with Sony.

Again no one did anything "wrong" (though you could argue Nikon and Canon were happy playing sensor hop-scotch with who had the best on the market); then suddenly from outside another firm pushes its way into the market.




Indeed with GW there are some who think 3D printing could be that very same risk for GW. Not high risk today, but at some point in the future it could change the whole market in a way GW can't adapt too or might not choose to adapt too. Although personally I think GW are quite safe until 3d printing is "plug and play" levels of friendly and perhaps even then are safe until the resins are a lot less dangerous than they are now (home 3D printing is not really for kids)

 jaredb wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
If GW wasn’t so predatory, it would do preorders about 3 months ahead of time so that if they got in a large number, they’d have time to fill all those preorders at the point of release.

I expect we’ll see this more from them, it’s about the 4th time they’ve expanded the initial lot (Shadow Armageddon, Indominus, this).

I don’t see it stopping or reducing the scalping, but possibly make it worse. The scalpers buy up the current stock, and now you have to either wait on your hands for three months (and I imagine several people will just “get bored” or frustrated waiting for it and cancel), or give in and buy it from scalpers at the higher price.

How is doing preorders 3 months ahead of time any better than orders taking a few extra months to be shipped? Either way you're waiting. I like the current method, as I don't want to have to wait for every new release. The current method (besides for a few standout cases), you do orders on sturday, you get the product the following Saturday. I wouldn't want to order everything months ahead of time, that's crazy.

I think the idea is that preorder that is 90 days before release would allow more people to have their stuff on release date. As it stands, some people who order on the weekend starting the made to order will have to wait weeks longer than someone who ordered two minutes before they did.

 Overread wrote:

Indeed with GW there are some who think 3D printing could be that very same risk for GW. Not high risk today, but at some point in the future it could change the whole market in a way GW can't adapt too or might not choose to adapt too. Although personally I think GW are quite safe until 3d printing is "plug and play" levels of friendly and perhaps even then are safe until the resins are a lot less dangerous than they are now (home 3D printing is not really for kids)

Wouldn't the scenario of a competitor utilising a new production method which allows them to match or exceed GWs quality while undercutting them on production costs and therefore price be the more likely scenario, considering the previous examples you raised.

A big part of the problem is that GW never discount its products. If they made more stock and get stuck with some unsold boxes, they could recoup their lost by selling them at a discount.

But it's been a policy for GW to never do any discounts, and i think it's one of the reason why they constantly underproduce

Pariah Nexus gave me hope that at least some GW customers have become woke and are no longer willing to be held in the yoke of ya gots ta buy dis overpriced joke.

One way to get a company to discount their stuff or change their marketing is to not buy what they are selling. There is a collective way to change GW from the outside in.

 Overread wrote:


Indeed with GW there are some who think 3D printing could be that very same risk for GW. Not high risk today, but at some point in the future it could change the whole market in a way GW can't adapt too or might not choose to adapt too. Although personally I think GW are quite safe until 3d printing is "plug and play" levels of friendly and perhaps even then are safe until the resins are a lot less dangerous than they are now (home 3D printing is not really for kids)

The wildcard with 3d printing is that it doesn't have to be plug and play and 90% of people don't have to own one.

The tech just needs to hit the point where print farms can churn out masses of minis at good quality, reliably and quickly, so people without printers start buying them at low prices. The revolution doesn't involve many people actually buying or using a printer themselves.

Automation and reliability are key, something like the FDM belt printers that continually churn out masses of the same model with much need for maintenance or oversight (but for resin) would be the game changer. Practically that means automatic bed detachment, wash and cute which we are likely to see in some form soon, albeit at high prices (formlabs have the best option at current, no gloves or need to remove from build plate required, auto drains and recycles IPA 70 times, not cheap but as close to automatic + minimal biohazard as it reasonably gets right now).

Of course, GW could provide services like custom print-to-order minis, advanced hero creator 3d apps, scan your face and put it on a model etc. to stay in the game and add value if it adapts.

At current the phrasing of printing = piracy they're putting out suggests that lawsuits and other methods (possibly rules only included in the box on a card, with a unique QR code to mark them as official etc.) will be the route taken instead. Possibility a combination with a CCG model with randomized stats/abilities when purchasing a model, requiring an AR app to play... who knows where the hobby will be in 20 years?

 streetsamurai wrote:
A big part of the problem is that GW never discount its products. If they made more stock and get stuck with some unsold boxes, they could recoup their lost by selling them at a discount.

But it's been a policy for GW to never do any discounts, and i think it's one of the reason why they constantly underproduce

The used to in the nineties. 3 for 2 and stickered discounts on blisters.

I don't want GW to fail. But I desperately want them to have some real competition.

I got the impression that FFG (now AMG) was becoming a bit of a rising star, but they have some serious problems with stocks levels and such, and Disney broke a lot of enthusiasm for Star Wars so I think my dreams have been dashed.

Expansion is the huge problem - a lot of firms in miniatures have a huge issue shifting from smaller scale, where they often use metal or resin, to large scale production. Not just in material and production costs, but also staffing, warehousing, distribution etc....

It highlights any weaknesses in their current workflow and company; it can often rely on overseas production which can come with a huge raft of nightmares and issues of their own - especially as miniature wargame customers are very picky and won't accept fails or faulty products so any minor error (which if you're casting in China might affect a whole shipment) is going to get spotted.


More than a few firms have got bigger and bigger and then just crumbled.

 Shooter wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
A big part of the problem is that GW never discount its products. If they made more stock and get stuck with some unsold boxes, they could recoup their lost by selling them at a discount.

But it's been a policy for GW to never do any discounts, and i think it's one of the reason why they constantly underproduce

The used to in the nineties. 3 for 2 and stickered discounts on blisters.

That was the conversion from lead to white metal if I believe, not exactly common discounts as it was for a specific purpose.

GW now keeps its resin as special 'get what was once OOP' orders now, which I suppose they will use to shift a fair bit of the resin stock at some point as opposed to the made to order approach they use now.

They still sell Finecast, and apparently even 1 or 2 metals, on regular order.
I assume the metals are just backstock that hasn't yet shifted!

Sorry, I meant to make a point of stating the finecast that was already OOP, or removed from sale, the old calgar(s) for example, though I suppose a few may still be knocking around in stores here or there.

 Overread wrote:
Expansion is the huge problem - a lot of firms in miniatures have a huge issue shifting from smaller scale, where they often use metal or resin, to large scale production. Not just in material and production costs, but also staffing, warehousing, distribution etc....

It highlights any weaknesses in their current workflow and company; it can often rely on overseas production which can come with a huge raft of nightmares and issues of their own - especially as miniature wargame customers are very picky and won't accept fails or faulty products so any minor error (which if you're casting in China might affect a whole shipment) is going to get spotted.


More than a few firms have got bigger and bigger and then just crumbled.

This. Plus, unlike GW many companies tend to borrow money to expand, which can be risky if the expansion doesn’t go as well as hoped. It wasn’t the reduced income which messed up the High Street in 2008, so much as the companies being unable to service their debts. Had those debts not existed? They might’ve been able to ride it out better.

GW really are a unique beast in this regard. Not only do they own pretty much their entire supply chain? But they’ve rarely if ever borrowed money to expand their business (they did borrow at one point, but if memory serves that was to pay dividends to share owners?). So when things go south in a general economic sense, GW are about as insulated as they can be, as a slowing in sales has a lesser impact.

A total collapse will of course spell trouble, but that’s not happened. At least not yet.

For others to get to GW’s size? That’s expensive. Like, really expensive. That money has to come from somewhere.

I'm fairly convinced that at some point, GW will switch to a licensing model for 3D printing, but the technology is not there yet, and when it is there, it will be like performance PC's for gaming, it will be very expensive hardware wise to support the model printing to GW standards at first, at which point I'd expect them to dip their toe in, allowing some printing of products but slowly transition to it fully, bare specific things.

They may also choose to not license some models as a means to keep their investment in their supply chain ticking over and making them money, however this will be more dependent on the quality of recasting at that point...

In some regards, what I believe Teslas main business aim is to be at some point, licensing their electric car tech to other companies, and maybe building some cars here and there for the ultra high end market. You can make the money still without having to commit to wholesale manufacture.

How is the technology not "there yet"? We have multiple players who print everything they use for 40k. Especially for guard players 3D printing is vastly superior to buying citadel models unless you are looking for some of the iconic vehicles.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
They still sell Finecast, and apparently even 1 or 2 metals, on regular order.
I assume the metals are just backstock that hasn't yet shifted!

I'm sure GW isn't sitting on thousands of unsold skaven metals. They have just kept the metal casting machine around and its profitable on the small scale (by GW standards) to keep those metals in the system for popular armies that didn't transition to finecast.





And yep the issue as I see it with expansion is that companies can't profit enough easily to get the money themselves (or to easily get investors on board) to pay for a BIG expansion in their operations; but at the same time if they don't get bigger expansions they run out of the ability to service the growing market they have. It's a huge minefield and its ever so easy to make mistakes. GW also got a lot of bonuses being "first" for a lot of things and they've done things that are now much harder to impossible for other firms (heck they've made the highstreet actualyl work for them which is something a LOT of other firms can't make right esp in this internet era)

Until its easier to print models than it is to go into a shop and buy them, 3D printing won't beat GW's current production system.

 Jidmah wrote:
How is the technology not "there yet"? We have multiple players who print everything they use for 40k. Especially for guard players 3D printing is vastly superior to buying citadel models unless you are looking for some of the iconic vehicles.

I've bought quite a few high level bits here and there that are 3D printed. They do not come near GW level of plastic for the most intricate of detail as of yet, so no, the technology is not there, yet.

Just to add to this, find me a person who can print a model on par with Be'lakor (or even just recast Be'lakor on a 3D printer) to the exact same standard of quality as GW and crucially, without an obscene level of cleaning of the model (anything more than cleaning mould lines from the plastic model, so an hour) and I will apologise and admit I am wrong.

 Jidmah wrote:
How is the technology not "there yet"? We have multiple players who print everything they use for 40k. Especially for guard players 3D printing is vastly superior to buying citadel models unless you are looking for some of the iconic vehicles.

for the same reason not everyone is resin casting with silicon molds
buying a master model for 10€ and start casting a 40k army, you are never coming close to the price you would pay for original models

yet it is not that easy as it sounds and the same for 3D printing, specially if you buy 3D render only without supports or "how to print" guide or any details for which scale/materials they are designed

buy the file and print an army is the same as buy a master and cast an army
both is cheaper than buying from GW, but both need time and experience and as soon as you go into "mass" production time is the critical point

needing 20 days of printing time to get an army done is still something were most people rather pay the higher price
(same as pre-painted resin terrain sells, because ready to play is worth the higher price for most people)

and than we are not even talking about Miniatures being able to fail months after they were printed, specially larger ones because of wrong settings/washing/printing method for the resin used

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
That was the conversion from lead to white metal if I believe, not exactly common discounts as it was for a specific purpose.

It was store openings and other events as well.

Got a stack of Chimeras for free 'cause of those deals.

 Jidmah wrote:
How is the technology not "there yet"? We have multiple players who print everything they use for 40k. Especially for guard players 3D printing is vastly superior to buying citadel models unless you are looking for some of the iconic vehicles.

There's a few aspects to consider:

1) Sculptor skill - right now a lot of the 3D sculptors are from videogame and art design backgrounds, not model making backgrounds. This REALLY shows in the style of model that they design. They can be very artistic, but can also be near impractical/impossible to actually paint. Some might be exceptionally fine with detail which is great for display, but impractical for gaming with. Some don't even own a 3D printer nor do their own supports so even the 3D design can have issues with regard to being supported and printed. 3D printers can do a lot, but they have weaknesses too - eg everything that faces the build plate will have slightly less crispness of detail than those facing away - if you factor this into designs and parted components you can work with the printer; if you don't think of it at all you can have nightmarish models to support.

Another area I see issues with is clipping - in 3D games detail clipping isn't really "seen" as a problem. However for wargames having parts clipping into other parts does show and can be a huge detracting feature

2) Printers are not plug and play. You can't just turn them on and print; you've got to set things up right. Failures can be caused by a whole list of things and sometimes its near impossible to work out what caused a specific failure - you just have to problemsolve by eliminating each potential variable.

3) Printers take time - this is being improved, but its also still a slow process. For production you need a lot of printers running to equal just 1 plastic injection moulding machine. Each printer also requires calibration, monitoring, refilling with resin etc.... Models also need washing, removing from supports and then washed material processing for safe disposal

4) Printers are more toxic. You have to wash prints, that washing liquid needs processing before safe disposal no matter if its IPA or water.

5) You still have to clean the model after its printed, which is the same as a plastic bought model.



In the end I've got a printer and I can print awesome stuff with it; but I can still go to a shop, buy a GW model and have it build faster than I can print it. I still have to work with materials and go through the same cleanup process to get the model read to paint and play with. Furthermore GW REALLY knows what they are doing. Their designs work; their sculpting achieves a uniform appearance and level of skill and in the end the plastic is nice to work with. 3D printer designers are still getting there - some are there, some are working their way their. Some will honestly never get there.


In the end I see 3D printing a less of a revolution and more of a companion. It won't replace GW it will work alongside. At least until such time as the technology is safe, clean, plug and play levels of simple etc....