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Chmmm it would be fine to have CI as trustfull source of information and do not waste a time on double check of everything.

am i reading this wrong?

Meganobz base 30pts with pk, saws 5pts kombis 10pts.
Termies base 33pts, free whatever they want.

....wtf? They even get chainfists for free which is their equiv for killsaws.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
am i reading this wrong?

Meganobz base 30pts with pk, saws 5pts kombis 10pts.
Termies base 33pts, free whatever they want.

....wtf? They even get chainfists for free which is their equiv for killsaws.

Stop complaining, have you tried "Forging the Narrative" harder? /s


Realistically Terminators have always been better than Meganobz in general. Even at 38pts (I think thats what they were) they were still better than terminators thanks to the 5+ Invuln they get naturally. But I want you to stop looking at Terminators and instead look at Assault Terminators. They now get TH/SS for 33pts each

To be honest, manz have been way better than termies for quite some time. At least since 7th Ed.

Yeah, unfortunately Meganobz have always been second fiddle to terminators when it comes to raw stats barring our 2nd wound in 4th-7th ed (which usually didn't matter much since most weapons aimed at them were either AP2 or S8 for instant death back then), mainly because they lacked options that Nobz had back then, like the WAAAGH! banner and Painboy (until 6th/7th ed where Painboys became HQ's). Their main selling point was as a MANZ missile or as part of a Bully Boyz formation. The main thing terminators lacked compared to Meganobz was a cheap transport that we had, like the trukk, that was open topped, since Land Raiders were too expensive and easy to target. So thanks to having a delivery option, we could field them more consistently even though they weren't strictly better than terminators.

The closest we've had to that this edition was Trukkboyz MANZ missiles, but with Ark of Omens, that restricts our archetype on using that.

 koooaei wrote:
To be honest, manz have been way better than termies for quite some time. At least since 7th Ed.

Point for point a terminator has been better than a meganob for honestly longer than I can remember. The Manz synergize better within the ork list...and in my honest opinion, that is only recently (9th edition).

only reason the MANz missile was any good in the old times was because it was so cheap and required anti-tank level weapons to reliably get rid of it before it auto-killed some vehicles. MANz werent hard to get rid of, they were hard to get rid of efficiently. If you killed them with non-AP2 guns you dumped a LOT into them. If you killed them with AP2 guns then our vehicles were usually unscathed for another turn
Terminators back then were just as deadly (in melee, stronger shooting and invuls of course not factoring here), but not as cheap and the 1W meant sometimes weak guns would take them down anyway.
Theres also the squad limit as iirc termies have always been 5man minimum, manz were 3, and back then you only needed 1 klaw to reliably open tin cans. Theres a reason PKs in the old days were 25pts for the weapon alone lol

That strength died when 8th landed and PK's somehow became a bad weapon, since now they dont guarantee a kill if they land and arent that reliable either.

The good old days where a blob of boys was just a PK delivery system

MANz have only ever been good as either a missile that did a suicide run into a hard target, or as a brick that sits in the middle of the board and bullies things that comes close and being wholly not worth killing or going near.

I'd argue that Termies have mostly fit the brick archetype, or as deathstars. Both archetypes have been pretty big in the games history, and SMs always had the luxury of having their missile units being ranged rather than melee exclusive.

You're also forgetting shock assault and damage 3 with thunder hammers.

Before that, 3 base attacks was at least a distinct advantage.

At this point they'd essentially have to make killsaws free or at least 5 points for just the second one. I think the wargear giveaway on marines is going to get looked at at some point because it was clearly a kneejerk reaction based on tournament winrates. It just depends on whether they go up well above the 50% threshold, but I doubt they'll meet the 55% threshold their balance team said they're worried about. If people are successful with terminator heavy lists, they'll likely see a change, if not, they'll probably stay as is.

 TedNugent wrote:
You're also forgetting shock assault and damage 3 with thunder hammers.

Before that, 3 base attacks was at least a distinct advantage.

At this point they'd essentially have to make killsaws free or at least 5 points for just the second one. I think the wargear giveaway on marines is going to get looked at at some point because it was clearly a kneejerk reaction based on tournament winrates. It just depends on whether they go up well above the 50% threshold, but I doubt they'll meet the 55% threshold their balance team said they're worried about. If people are successful with terminator heavy lists, they'll likely see a change, if not, they'll probably stay as is.

realistically the biggest difference between Nobz and Marines is gone. Nobz had 2w to Marines 1. They had 3 attacks to the SM's 1. On Turn 1 its now 3 attacks across the board for all Terminators and the Terminators have 3 wounds to the Meganobz 3 wounds. Meganobz should have 4 wounds and 4 attacks to differentiate them and the fact they don't have a native Invuln save. Not to mention being stuck with a PK or having to pay through the nose for a pair of Killsaws. Realistically a pair of Killsaws should be a 5pt upgrade not 10.

Yeah cause at least dual killsaws gives another attack so it makes sense for it to not be "free"
But pk/saws are effectively identical w/o the dual saws....so wtf

Yeah, in the stats arms race of 9th ed, unfortunately we fell far behind, which is weird because you would think the T5 boost would have helped more, but unfortunately, the game has gotten so killy and our points have gone up enough that it's mostly a wash at best. Also doesn't help that our support units are either one shot wonders (KFF Big Mek) or effectively useless right now (Painboyz), so we only have the new revised WAAAGH! to give us a boost against the amount of firepower on the table. Only our HQ units and maybe Kill Rigs feel like they have the staying power they should have.

Our elites by far (barring Kommandos) don't feel really elite by most armies standards. I'm not saying I want to go back to the Nob Biker days, but I would like to feel like my Nobz/Meganobz can at least go toe to toe with most enemy units rather than feeling like they're marginally stronger boyz.

SemperMortis wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
To be honest, manz have been way better than termies for quite some time. At least since 7th Ed.

Point for point a terminator has been better than a meganob for honestly longer than I can remember. The Manz synergize better within the ork list...and in my honest opinion, that is only recently (9th edition).

3 attacks vs 2. Meant 4 on the charge vs 3 on the charge back than.
Furious charge meant s9 on the charge. Which was a huge difference to s8 that termies had.
2 wounds vs 1 wound. Meant anything not s8 ap2 was wasted on manz.
Min squad of 3 vs min squad of 5. Which was all you needed to remove or at least invalidate basically any vehicle that can't fight before your manz.
Access to kombi-skorchas. Situational but really good to have.
And most importantly: trukks. 35 pt (45 with a ram and shoots) vs a 250pt+ land raider.
Later on we got simply amazing bully boyz that made manz one of the best unit in codex. I personally won a bunch of pretty competitive tourneys back than running bully boyz in trukks. Was no gt, but people ran cutthroat stuff like imp knights + eldar knights + scat bikes, invisible deathstars, unkillable daemon stars, etc.

Manz were also great in 8th where you could drop 10 and go for a charge with +1 bonus. Even in 9th they were somewhat passable in min squads foots logging or like 5 in a wagon.

Fact: manz were used. Termies were not.

yeah ive used manz even recently as an objective parker.
3 manz with kombi-rokkits especially as badmoonz was 3d3 30" S8 AP2/3 attacks that was parked in cover on an objective and could usually hold their own against most things that reached them in the midfield.
It annoys me theyre more expensive than the superior in every way except raw toughness termies now.

MANz are S10 but S10 doesnt mean much these days, S8 is really the only threshold you need especially for melee.

The toughness boost WOULD have made orks extremely annoying to get rid of if they didnt also at the same exact time completely screw over our morale. Literally dropped our survivability in the same wave they increased the toughness because morale hurt us THAT badly

The toughness boost WOULD have made orks extremely annoying to get rid of if they didnt also at the same exact time completely screw over our morale. Literally dropped our survivability in the same wave they increased the toughness because morale hurt us THAT badly

for boys, going to T5, the effective -1 to be wounded roughly washes out with morale losses, but it feels a heck of alot less bad to lose to a wound than morale. there is more agency in protecting against failed wounds too - i can spend the points to have a kff mek around, or choose to run units with a 6++. there is absolutely nothing i can do to mitigate morale that doesnt cost me 2cp and require i have nobs around.

it absolutely dumps on anything that costs more than 10ppm

I saw ao40k talk a bit about deathskulls and how they'll be good at outscoring a lot of armies which got me thinking that they will probably be our best bet in this meta over goffs. I feel like mini meks might become really useful especially for late game obj contesting or possible behind enemy lines shenanigans, assuming your taking weirdboyz to da jump them around. Might be giving up an auto max assassinate, but the tradeoff seems worth it to keep your opponents scoring at bay.

Don' t understand. What changed to make DS so great?

 Tomsug wrote:
Don' t understand. What changed to make DS so great?

No changes. I think they just also know that infantry spam is gonna be our only option and in combination with greentide getting better, it just makes sense that DS are gonna likely be our strongest option. Basically we're probably gonna get tabled regardless of the clan, so it's better to try and outscore your opponent by a lot early using DS.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
I saw ao40k talk a bit about deathskulls and how they'll be good at outscoring a lot of armies which got me thinking that they will probably be our best bet in this meta over goffs. I feel like mini meks might become really useful especially for late game obj contesting or possible behind enemy lines shenanigans, assuming your taking weirdboyz to da jump them around. Might be giving up an auto max assassinate, but the tradeoff seems worth it to keep your opponents scoring at bay.

Da Jump has been nerfed to only teleport "CORE" units now, so characters are basically off limits so I doubt mini-meks are worth taking.

Stomp em Good changed the chapter + I did a one page photoshop to have all secondaries on one paper. Enjoy..

 Tomsug wrote:
Stomp em Good changed the chapter + I did a one page photoshop to ahve all secondaries on one paper. Enjoy..

That's really helpful, thank you.

Battlescribe has updated with points and detachments as well.

Thanks Tomsug.

I play little bit with the new AoO rules and I have to say:

1. I don' t like the new detachement rules. “Gives more flexibility” is a marketing bs.

This restrict the flexibility a lot. In good old days there used to be 2 detachement as a standard. Every unit type (FA elite, HS..) had it s own allowing you to have 12 slots of such type in 2 outriders with no troop tax and just a small HQ tax.

Now, you can get max 6 slots of any type except 12 troops and the option for spamming the Elite Characters + extra tweak on LOW

All spams of HS, Elites or FA are gone.

You have to build unified semi-like-batalion detachement.

2. To build anything heavier or faste like “speed mob” you have to “cheat” with similar units across unit types + characters of all kind - like Squighog boyz for free Nobz without slot, wagons and trukks in combination with FA. Generaly - I won' t be surprise if we see a lot of hero hammer of all kind to fix “not enought HS/ELITE/FA slots..

3. If you check the secondaries, You need troops and infantry desperately.

4.There could be a lot of characters on the table I guess - see point 2. - so Assasinate will be very common. Gear up to Kill the characters will be nice. However, you cannot take Stomp if that happen.

5. On the other other side, if everybody give up Assasination, you can give up Bring it down too - same chapter. Interesting for Killrigs, because they have Char but are huge vehicles in fact.

6. My question to all of you - what does it mean for other armies? Tyranids, Necrons, all kinds of eldars. A lot of you plays second army of such type. How does the cap on non-troops unit affect your builds?

I would like to predict the common type of target in the new meta.

I see new detachements restricting toys before boyz.
I see new secondaries prefering boyz before toys.
I see free equip for space marines infantry which is again “boyz before toys”.

So we can be in heavy T4/W2 or W1 meta soon.

And orks like to run counter meta and I want to run my toys and let the boyz sip the beer in the backstage

If Goffs alpha strike goes the way of the dodo, we might be well off going for infantry spam with Deathskulls.

Something like;
Squigboss
Weirdboy
20x Snagga Boys
30x Grots
9x Burna Boys
30x Kommandos
10x MANz
2x Mini Meks
15x Stormboyz
Battlewagon
2x Kill Rig

That gives you 116 infantry models which are all obsec. You are relying heavily on the Boss and the rigs to do all of the heavy lifting, but you might just be able to purely outscore.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
If Goffs alpha strike goes the way of the dodo, we might be well off going for infantry spam with Deathskulls.

Something like;
Squigboss
Weirdboy
20x Snagga Boys
30x Grots
9x Burna Boys
30x Kommandos
10x MANz
2x Mini Meks
15x Stormboyz
Battlewagon
2x Kill Rig

That gives you 116 infantry models which are all obsec. You are relying heavily on the Boss and the rigs to do all of the heavy lifting, but you might just be able to purely outscore.

Are the Grots ObSec?

Apologies, that's my mistake. 10 of the Grots are ObSec. 96 infantry that are all ObSec.

Nice one chaps.
I'm taking the boyz to a tourney this weekend but it's combat patrol, so we are playing Only War from the core book. Gonna have to go back and look at that. Free trait and relic at least.
List is a Goff patrol: warboss w/ hwkc and brutal, mek, boyz mob, trukk, 8 stormboyz, 5 kommandos and an all klaw deff dread (my collection has no beast snagga units).Just not sure if I should do any specialist mob as I don't want to lose the Goff keyword on anyone.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
If Goffs alpha strike goes the way of the dodo, we might be well off going for infantry spam with Deathskulls.

Something like;
Squigboss
Weirdboy
20x Snagga Boys
30x Grots
9x Burna Boys
30x Kommandos
10x MANz
2x Mini Meks
15x Stormboyz
Battlewagon
2x Kill Rig

That gives you 116 infantry models which are all obsec. You are relying heavily on the Boss and the rigs to do all of the heavy lifting, but you might just be able to purely outscore.

a solid ravenwing list making the rounds has 40 multi melta shots by accident, tons of S6 ap1 1d shots, all moving 14"+ adv and shoot with a 4++
iron hands are just as if not more busted

part of the power of kill rigs is psychological - people dont have the tools to effectively deal with them at range so they try to play around them. That advantage is about to be gone in the most absurd way.

orks are going to have to go old school this season - maximum body count, flood the board, screen out enemy reserves, and hold on to objectives.

So... 12 units of 10 boys? and a bunch of other things?

Also BS seem to not do what i want it to. In my arks of omen detatchment im putting 3 units of kommandos and a unit of trukkboy Nobz with powerklaws. yet it complains and says i can only have 3 units of elite. As far as i can see i can have 6?

Edit:
Okay ive seen the mistake now.

But the mistake just made it insanely clear how much i will hate the new arks of omen system. So you have to pick your compulsary type? You couldnt have 6 heavy support slots AND lets say, 4 elite slots? What the hell? You cant even have 4 fast attack slots AND 4 elite slots? This new system is stupid! I thought you could!

Beardedragon wrote:
So... 12 units of 10 boys? and a bunch of other things?

You couldnt have 6 heavy support slots AND lets say, 4 elite slots? What the hell? You cant even have 4 fast attack slots AND 4 elite slots? This new system is stupid! I thought you could!

AoO detachment allows you to skip on troops if yours suck, and pivot in to fast attack or heavy without spending 2-3cp for an additional detachment to get more than 3 units.

a battalion would have been capped at 6 elite, 3 fast attack, and 3 heavy. it would cost you 2cp, 1 HQ and 1 troop to get 2 more of each, or 3cp and an HQ

AoO does pose challenges for ork builds - our crap leadership forces MSU and our units are cheap, 1155 points fills out 9 infantry slots in elite/fast attack. in deathguard i can drop 1200 on 3 elite slots alone and not be hamstringing myself