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 Suzuteo wrote:

 phandaal wrote:
Seems like people enjoy his video too, because it's got massively more viewers than any of his other recent stuff.

Given how many 40K channels got nuked off Youtube recently, I guess we're all thirsty for content.

So how many actually did? Seems like innuendo stated as fact.

Man you can always tell when the westerners wake up because the silliest fight thread goes straight to the top of most recent.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Man you can always tell when the westerners wake up because the silliest fight thread goes straight to the top of most recent.

Joke's on you, I should be asleep by now.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Man you can always tell when the westerners wake up because the silliest fight thread goes straight to the top of most recent.

I come from aus, so wouldn't that make me more of a southerner?

We're a tiny pacific nation.

Australia... Prepare your selve to be nuked then


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 posermcbogus wrote:
Man you can always tell when the westerners wake up because the silliest fight thread goes straight to the top of most recent.

You know that the westeners cover at least 10 different time zones (from UTC +1 to UTC -9) ... so there is always some of us not sleeping

Thats the advantage of being the IOM of the RW... you know... the xenophobic "good guys" that settle where ever they want and mostly displace and latter send to oblivion the local population.

Retalation is comming

Vatsetis wrote:
Thats the advantage of being the IOM of the RW... you know... the xenophobic "good guys" that settle where ever they want and mostly displace and latter send to oblivion the local population.

Yep, 'cause we're the only group that ever did that.

Well its not like GW invented predatory marketing with the Primaris... but they are certainly outstanding pupils in this regards.

You guys are aware of the past 20 years of 40k and the constant balance hammer swings ever since?

This is nothing new and especially not something for Primaris.

Just for argument's sake:
Compare the Primaris units that are / were OP to every other release that isn't / wasn't.

OP:
- Aggressors
- Eliminators

Units people discussed as OP but never made any big showing on the tourny scene:
- Eradicators
- Heavy Intercessors
- Invader Quad

Not OP:
- The rest

Do you agree? And if yes, could you elaborate how this falls into predatory marketing that 2 out of ~45 Primaris (give or take with Chapter specific units) datasheets weren't balanced, when we look at the releases of the last 4ish years?

a_typical_hero wrote:
You guys are aware of the past 20 years of 40k and the constant balance hammer swings ever since?

This is nothing new and especially not something for Primaris.

Just for argument's sake:
Compare the Primaris units that are / were OP to every other release that isn't / wasn't.

OP:
- Aggressors
- Eliminators

Units people discussed as OP but never made any big showing on the tourny scene:
- Eradicators
- Heavy Intercessors
- Invader Quad

Not OP:
- The rest

Do you agree? And if yes, could you elaborate how this falls into predatory marketing that 2 out of ~45 Primaris (give or take with Chapter specific units) datasheets weren't balanced, when we look at the releases of the last 4ish years?

Because that's what a white knighting shill would say, everyone know GW are out to mug your nan, steal your dinner money and murder your cat. They actively make stocks of other factions and models that haven't been released for years, line them up in front of fans and melt them down to make marine lieutenants, because that's what their shareholders are paid in. Lieutenant's.

Any evidence you can put forwards that marines are reasonable in any capacity is because you're bolter porn loving marine fan boy and will 100% buy 23 of every release.

GW spends so much on marketing to make children enter debt before even reaching adult hood, soon there'll be a wave of children roaming the streets with maxed out credit cards looking for scraps of sprue to snort.

But it's OK. The 3d print revolution is here, once they've scratched together enough living on the streets, they can plug in a printer and have all the armies they want basically free while giving the bird to GW, only to then be banned from all events with GW backing, enter a spiral of hatred for themselves and finally melt their collections and jump into the fire as the source of their addictions goes bust and no longer provides materials for them to pirate. /s

a_typical_hero wrote:
You guys are aware of the past 20 years of 40k and the constant balance hammer swings ever since?

This is nothing new and especially not something for Primaris.

Just for argument's sake:
Compare the Primaris units that are / were OP to every other release that isn't / wasn't.

OP:
- Aggressors
- Eliminators

Units people discussed as OP but never made any big showing on the tourny scene:
- Eradicators
- Heavy Intercessors
- Invader Quad

Not OP:
- The rest

Do you agree? And if yes, could you elaborate how this falls into predatory marketing that 2 out of ~45 Primaris (give or take with Chapter specific units) datasheets weren't balanced, when we look at the releases of the last 4ish years?

What an espectacular way of missing the point

a_typical_hero wrote:
Do you agree? And if yes, could you elaborate how this falls into predatory marketing that 2 out of ~45 Primaris (give or take with Chapter specific units) datasheets weren't balanced, when we look at the releases of the last 4ish years?

Its partly why its such a good video. Whether intentionally or not, it works as both a send up of GW's marketing, and also a send up of GW's critics.

I feel I should go dig through the history on Heavy Intercessor commentary - because they seemed "meh" on the stats, people online seemed to think they'd somehow completely change the game (2 S5 AP-1 shots for 28 points? How will everyone cope?) and then... well are obviously just kind of crap.

I think Eradicators were a problem - hence the nerf - but both they and the Mario Kart were left in the shade by MM attack bikes.

We can also throw in "Intercessors" being overpowered from Codex 2.0->Covid. Or maybe just write that whole era off as a thing that happened.

Tyel wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:


Its partly why its such a good video. Whether intentionally or not, it works as both a send up of GW's marketing, and also a send up of GW's critics.

.

Agree.

Vatsetis wrote:
What an espectacular way of missing the point

Please elaborate. Your stance in this thread - as I understood - is that GW engages in predatory marketing with it's releases. I explained that most of the Primaris releases were fine and don't support your stance. Where do I miss the point? Do you disagree with the list?

Vatsetis wrote:
Agree.

Maybe I'm lost in translation here, but isn't Tyel's post opposing your stance as well?

Predatory is something one can get used to, it is less fun when they are inconsistent in what they do.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
What an espectacular way of missing the point

Please elaborate. Your stance in this thread - as I understood - is that GW engages in predatory marketing with it's releases. I explained that most of the Primaris releases were fine and don't support your stance. Where do I miss the point? Do you disagree with the list?

Vatsetis wrote:
Agree.

Maybe I'm lost in translation here, but isn't Tyel's post opposing your stance as well?

The point is that the video is just poking fun at a few aspects of the hobby.

Karol wrote:
Predatory is something one can get used to, it is less fun when they are inconsistent in what they do.

The consistency with Primaris is that their releases are not predatory.

Even if we add Eradicator and Intercessor from 2.0 to the list. 4 out of ~45 datasheets.

 phandaal wrote:
The point is that the video is just poking fun at a few aspects of the hobby.

But here the point isn't just poking fun, is it?

Vatsetis wrote:
Well its not like GW invented predatory marketing with the Primaris... but they are certainly outstanding pupils in this regards.

P.S
Please beware of using the h-word around here. Some folks get scared to use it instead of specifying that you mean 40k.

Excluding myself from the whole what is considered funny argument, there is a , from what I understand, a cultural aspect to humor. And things that are considered funny in one place, are not considered funny in another. Personal expiriance will have impact on the digestion of such a video clip too. For one person it may be a good laugh short, for another it will make them remember how they started the game, spend money and suddenly found out that post edition change the collection they bought is either illegal or really unfun to play with. With bonus points for covid times making it maybe impossible to ever have played with the army.


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a_typical_hero wrote:

Karol wrote:
Predatory is something one can get used to, it is less fun when they are inconsistent in what they do.

The consistency with Primaris is that their releases are not predatory.

Even if we add Eradicator and Intercessor from 2.0 to the list. 4 out of ~45 datasheets.

With primaris maybe. But I look at this from the only perspective I know of which is my own. And to me it looks very strange, that somehow GW is able to give good rules to termintors for DG, really good rules for DA, very good rules for 1ksons and then make the termintors for GK be extremly bad.

And because of the indominatus shortage here, marine players jumped on the MM bikes and Vanvets bandwagon way before it was done anywhere else.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
What an espectacular way of missing the point

Please elaborate. Your stance in this thread - as I understood - is that GW engages in predatory marketing with it's releases. I explained that most of the Primaris releases were fine and don't support your stance. Where do I miss the point? Do you disagree with the list?

Vatsetis wrote:
Agree.

Maybe I'm lost in translation here, but isn't Tyel's post opposing your stance as well?

Im really sorry for people like you that have turn euclidean logic into their own jail.

But in order to not being accuse of trolling I will "elaborate":

The video is a parody... Its an exageration of reality, thats why its funny... Even if you are formally correct that thosent mean you arent missing the point altogether... Jokes stop being funny when you explain them... You can make fun both of GW and its critics at the same time... Its difficult to explain to a blind person the difference between colors.


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a_typical_hero wrote:

Karol wrote:

P.S
Please beware of using the h-word around here. Some folks get scared to use it instead of specifying that you mean 40k.

I have no clue about what you are saying. Perhaps I was horribly rude, but I cant understand to whom or why?

I commented not on the video, but on your

Vatsetis wrote:
Well its not like GW invented predatory marketing with the Primaris... but they are certainly outstanding pupils in this regards.

Where do I miss your point? Do you not think that GW engages in predatory marketing, even though you stated it outright there?

Thanks for your effort, but I was capable of getting the nature of the video myself the first time when I watched it.

The h-word thing is a not so serious warning meant for phandaal. Some people get upset if you use the word "hobby" and "playing, collecting, painting 40k stuff" interchangably and will correct you that 40k is, in fact, not "the hobby".

I was simply stating that GW has been doing predatory marketing for a long time... But that actually the Primaris are a good examples of such practices.

Its just my POV.

Alright, so would you add more units to my initial list? Which one's do you see as problematic on their release?

Its irrelevant... You are missing the point... You are like an American general insisting that in the Vietnam War they never lost a single battle.

On a more profound level its impossible for us to have a proper conversation because we lack a common mental framework... This is the zeitgeist of the XXI CENTURY.

Nevertheless If that make you feel better, your are formally right.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Alright, so would you add more units to my initial list? Which one's do you see as problematic on their release?

Well what GW did to IH or RG was bit evil. Write rules so people buy eliminators, dreadnoughts, sniper intercessors while knowing very well that in less then 12 months they plan to not only bring out a new rule set, which will make the the units and the armies bad through a combination of core rules, army rules and unit rules changes. It is like the state making people exchange their coal furances, only to make them illegal 2 years later. People haven't even paid the loans to exchange the furances for more eco friendly ones, and they are already not legal to use. GW does stuff like that.

Vatsetis wrote:
Its irrelevant... You are missing the point... You are like an American general insisting that in the Vietnam War they never lost a single battle.

On a more profound level its impossible for us to have a proper conversation because we lack a common mental framework... This is the zeitgeist of the XXI CENTURY.

Nevertheless If that make you feel better, your are formally right.

You're both wrong and right here?

I'm not sure anything about GW's marketing is inherently predatory, but likewise the power level at release isn't marketing. On the flip side the power level of marines didn't match up to the community marketing. Going by the threads on here people would be selling their firstborn (lol) for eradicators a year ago.

Vatsetis wrote:
Its irrelevant... You are missing the point... You are like an American general insisting that in the Vietnam War they never lost a single battle.

On a more profound level its impossible for us to have a proper conversation because we lack a common mental framework... This is the zeitgeist of the XXI CENTURY.

Nevertheless If that make you feel better, your are formally right.

?
I don't care if I'm right. Maybe I'm wrong in my POV. That's why I am on a forum. I want to have a discussion with you to come to a "mutual agreement" on a point that we currently disagree with.
This really isn't 10 dimensional chess, so what are you on about not having the same mental framework? From this and other threads where you are involved, I get the feeling you put out your opinion, meet people who disagree with you and instead of engaging or conceding, you allude to some "hidden meaning" in your posts that nobody else is capable of understanding. And you don't want to explain it either.

The topic at hand is simple: If Primaris are a good example of predatory marketing, then it should be easy to name a substantial amount of their releases that have been straight better than the Primaris releases before them.
If we can't name them and most Primaris are fine, then we can say that this is not the case for them.

Karol wrote:
Well what GW did to IH or RG was bit evil. Write rules so people buy eliminators, dreadnoughts, sniper intercessors while knowing very well that in less then 12 months they plan to not only bring out a new rule set, which will make the the units and the armies bad through a combination of core rules, army rules and unit rules changes. ... GW does stuff like that.

The short lifecycle of SM 2.0 is something GW can and should be criticized about. Sniper intercessors were not a new release at that time, though and the Dreads that got used by IH were Firstborn. Both got reigned in somewhat by the Errata back then.

Well hero...its obvious you have reach a "mutual agreement" on your own terms... why do you need me explaining anything when its obvious that Im unable to explain anything?

When one side concedes the fight is over.

Vatsetis wrote:
Well hero...its obvious you have reach a "mutual agreement" on your own terms... why do you need me explaining anything when its obvious that Im unable to explain anything?

When one side concedes the fight is over.

So smarm. Much logic. Wow.

Its very easy to understand... Im not going to have a rigged "debate" inside the conceptual frame of people who just seek for self validation... It dosent matter if actually many Primaris units arent OP always... It dosent matter if GW giving a bonus to Erradicators actually made much better the firstborn attack bike... The intent of GW when creating this unit is very straight forward and it dosent have to br be done "perfectly"... The video hits the nail... Its a parody... Not a competitive 40K primaris tactics in depth article.

Humour cannot be explained to rules layers just like sound cannot be explained to and understand properly by deaf people.

Wait, I thought this was an arguement about Predatory Marketing, and not about humour?