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A generic 'good taste' rule can do a lot, even if boils down to an arbitrary sort of 'we reserve to the right to eliminate anyone who violates community standards or draws the tournament into disrepute'.

You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'. You won't find a way to write a rule that allows DE and Slannesh armies but bars that guy with the diorama of IG sexually assaulting Eldar.

Common sense sometimes has to be the standard. I mean that's what we use when modding here.

There's something to be said for having a discretionary rule about how it's the organizers house and they can dis-invite you for any reason whatsoever.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A generic 'good taste' rule can do a lot, even if boils down to an arbitrary sort of 'we reserve to the right to eliminate anyone who violates community standards or draws the tournament into disrepute'.

You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'. You won't find a way to write a rule that allows DE and Slannesh armies but bars that guy with the diorama of IG sexually assaulting Eldar.

Common sense sometimes has to be the standard. I mean that's what we use when modding here.

I am glad a mod answered - mostly because I like to hear their point of view as a mod of an online community that is mostly anonymous.

Also - damn guys keeping the decorum! Awesome!

 blood reaper wrote:

I personally don't buy into the claims of some people in the hobby that Warhammer is filled with neo-fascists or neo-Nazis. I do find there are concentrations of people I would describe as sympathisers (and on occasion, cryptos). The problem is when one of these people is spotted, rather than people being worried over the sheer intellectual vileness of their beliefs, they say "Oh but they were polite!"

We kinda are in a hobby where the core premise of the setting is to purge anyone of a different race or religion or who has genetic abnormalities or who sympathizes with any of the above because they pose a threat to our lives and immortal souls. We shouldn't be surprised if the proportion of bigots is a little higher than in the general population.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'.

Sure you can. Just say "no Nazis."

I'd rather not have people around with Che Guevera shirts either, given the guy's views on homosexuality and black people.

 Thadin wrote:
I'd rather not have people around with Che Guevera shirts either, given the guy's views on homosexuality and black people.

Yeah, I don't get the worship the guy gets, he was a total PoS.

That set of communists, like neo-nazis, probably don't realize that their idols would want them dead. It's very strange to me.

It has almost nothing to do with the man and everything to do with a cool picture someone took of him.

Laughing Man wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'.

Sure you can. Just say "no Nazis."

Thadin wrote:I'd rather not have people around with Che Guevera shirts either, given the guy's views on homosexuality and black people.

And there we go.

Ultimately legalism is not a solution. Even 'no politics' is not a solution as nearly anything can have a political subtext.

Community standards and reputation are a bit more reliable. There's a world of difference between a MAGA hat and a deep fake video of the former president shooting reporters in the face. There's a difference between the common Che Guevera shirt and picture of good communists bayoneting landlords.

I mentioned a sexual assault diorama before, since that was something actually posted here. While 40k is at times R rated, and certainly in bad taste even in this game there are red lines. An Inquisitor yelling purge the heretics is an established part of the game universe. And when heretics sometimes turn into King Kong sized demons and start drinking blood the Inquisitor has a bit of a point.

But a diorama of an Inquisitor sending heretics into a prison camp with the phrase "Work will make you free"... yeah. No.

(A diorama of Chaos cultists liberating that camp however... that would be interesting and would clearly not be an endorsement of genocide.)

There was a bloodthirster years ago, converted to have oversized genitals and it was banned from a painting competition, while I imagine a bare breasted Daemonette would not be. And while a college seminar would get a lively discussion of double standards in Anglo-American culture, that ain't the job of TO, painting contest organizer or board mod. We just live in this culture, you want to challenge the existing paradigm go do it on your own time.

I agree that it's a difficult situation to try and blanket ban problematic things, given the amount of subtle symbols around that could mean something, when presented with a context or things like that. That's not to say the situation within this thread is at all subtle, I'm meaning in a more general sense.

People can argue til the cows come home that their views aren't political, especially I've seen with communism, that it's human rights and therefor, not political. The neo-nazis tend to deflect and obfuscate. Both kinds of things, don't have a place in gatherings of varied individuals attending a Warhammer event. And unfortunately it requires a savy individual or team of individuals to suss out who is actually dog-whistling at events, displaying political beliefs, etc etc, if someone is being accused by another individual or group.

 CragHack wrote:
Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.

From GorkaMorka. Its literally official GW lore and has been for about 30 years.

 blood reaper wrote:
Also if you want an idea why a Spanish tournie organisers probably had no issues with this guy playing, Spain historically was run by Fascists into the 1970s (upon which they were kicked out) and there remains a nostalgia amongst some of the populace for Francoism and such. Plenty of neo-fascists are in the ranks of the Spanish army, and de-Francoisation has often met with protest.

Yes, Franco was the "successful" Fascist and there is greater tolerance of his and adjacent ideologies as a result of that.

 Togusa wrote:


Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.

Since I:

A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.

I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.

load of bs, its the same excuses and cover these donkey-caves always use when they get called out on it, and people fall for it and use it to protect these dudes and try to spin them into victimhood. (see also godardc's post)

I know actual norse pagan/heathen Gothis and Gydhjas, these are not the symbols they use, and while there is no central authority regionally./nationally/internationally, all the neopagan/heathen communities out there that *dont* have a racially motivated ideological bent purposefully avoid the use of symbols like this because of their very real connotations with nazi/fascist belief. When they do use what I'll call "nazi adjacent" imagery, they often go to great pains to attempt to differentiate them from those used by these racist groups, usually by making them more ornate and traditional looking instead of the bold solid blocks of colors you see here.

In this case he's wearing a white power cross/sun wheel (which in certain stylistic interpretations is a norse symbol) superimposed on the arrows of the spanish falangists (those arrows are very much *not* a norse/pagan symbol), and then the symbol on his jacket appears to be the thundercross or firecross which is basically a swastika of swastikas and is more common in latvia/the baltic states than among norse pagans - the fact that its set within a shield speaks that hes a "defender" (i.e. a militant or an extremist) rather than simply someone observing their faith. The mixed use of nordic and baltic symbols itself makes a pretty strong case that this is not someone "of the faith". The fact that the clothing is made by a known "ideological clothing brand" (as they call themselves) based out of Ukraine makes it all the more obvious.

beast_gts wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
and the swastika pattern is really weird because it's something I've never seen.

Someone commented this photo on the Goonhammer article -

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/312576fefe0290eb34b8fc852c5b9bb9e366af4d90941aa76ab8025382754854.jpg

lol thats a known neonazi clothing brand based in Ukraine. From their website:

"The mission of Sva Stone: to be a leader in quality of cloths for ideological people whose time has come!"

"The main customer: young sporty Ukrainians and Europeans, who prefer high-quality cloths of European production in casual style with an appropriate ideologic context.

The aim of activity: to increase quality of life of our customers everyday by offering them more qualitative and affordable cloths, by encouraging and supporting healthy way of life and basic European values."

"The legend:
Mother-Sva beats her wings and calls us to stand up for our land because we are Warriors!

Stands on the Stone where runes of our victories are carved. Weaves a lace of the destiny of our Nation. Hardens steel for us to make our armor.

Let these cloths protect you and inspire in a battle, warm you up in winter and chill in summer.

Let these cloths be your armor as noble and strong as the knights from the glorious past had.

We put our souls into it. Mother-Sva beats her wings…"

Sorry for the incoherent rambling, because right now I'm having a difficult time writting my toughts on the matter in a comprehensible way in english

hardly incoherent, pretty well said and straightforward. Thank you.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A generic 'good taste' rule can do a lot, even if boils down to an arbitrary sort of 'we reserve to the right to eliminate anyone who violates community standards or draws the tournament into disrepute'.

You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'. You won't find a way to write a rule that allows DE and Slannesh armies but bars that guy with the diorama of IG sexually assaulting Eldar.

Common sense sometimes has to be the standard. I mean that's what we use when modding here.

Some of the local tournaments around here used to have a primary 'Don't be a Dick' rule in their rules packages, which gave them a fair amount of latitude when it came to dealing with inappropriate behaviour.

N*zis (nothing neo about these pieces of digestive byproduct) do love to try and muddle the waters. It's always "I'm just really into autobahn building!" or some other nonsense.

These symbols have obvious associations that they're intended to evoke, even if, by some miracle the person wasn't an actual n*zi, he's a miserable troll intending to stir faeces at the event.

There's no need for mealy-mouthed "well if you ban one idology you have to ban the others" because ONE of the ideologies has outright genocide in it's political program.

I've known a number of norse-flavored pagans (basically impossible not to if you study anything history related), strangely none of them felt the need to deck themselves out in n*zi-adjecent symbols.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Hey, so I really appreciate the work here to educate people, and honestly think it's very important, but I can't be the only dakkadakka user who works for a nation's civil service and browses at work...

Could we mayyyyybe host the extremist imagery off-site, please? I've worked with people in the past who would deadass just delete every trace of themselves from this site without even having posted in this thread (...like I have lol) because of how much spooky iconography is getting posted rn. Like I know it probably isn't against the rules and whatever, so sorry for armchair modding, but like - McBogus watches out for McBogus's ass.

I've gone through the thread and switched any hotlinked images to links. If we could all do that moving forward, that would be appreciated... that way at least people are only winding up with the images on their screen for a casual workmate passing by to see if they actually click on the link.

Should 100% have been kicked out. Doesn't matter the impact on the rest of the tournament. Doesn't matter if they had any explicit rules against it. Let them call the police and complain about being discriminated against if they really want to (though that is clearly just a ridiculous empty threat).

Unfortunately that event was apparently a bit of a cluster for all sorts of reasons, this being just one of them.

I'm almost hesitant to weight in on this...

But Cronch, you do know that every communist in power has committed genocide, right?

 Thadin wrote:
I'm almost hesitant to weight in on this...

But Cronch, you do know that every communist in power has committed genocide, right?

So has pretty much every capitalist nation. Let's not distract from the folks actively advocating for the extermination of entire religious and ethnic groups, kay?

Yea there is a big difference between
"I am X thing and also perform/performed genocide"
and
"I am Y thing, which explicitly calls for and demands genocide"

The topic was not about this specific instance in the subject of this thread, but a sub-topic brought up about dictating what sorts of clothing should or should not be permitted in the wargaming hobby.

Advocation of either ideology should not be permitted in tournaments, hobby stores, any public space.

It just so happened that every communist was all about that genocide and killed people of difference races, non-straight orientations and religions, en masse.

 Thadin wrote:
The topic was not about this specific instance in the subject of this thread, but a sub-topic brought up about dictating what sorts of clothing should or should not be permitted in the wargaming hobby.

Advocation of either ideology should not be permitted in tournaments, hobby stores, any public space.

If you're going to argue against advocating for capitalism, you might find it difficult in hobby stores, tournaments, and most other public spaces.

The thread has done a pretty good job of sticking to the topic so far. Let's not stray into discussions of which political system is worse, m'kay?

Mods, TOs etc ain't judges in a court of law.

We're bouncers in a bar.

We spot trouble, we show trouble the door.

"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I personally don't buy into the claims of some people in the hobby that Warhammer is filled with neo-fascists or neo-Nazis. I do find there are concentrations of people I would describe as sympathisers (and on occasion, cryptos). The problem is when one of these people is spotted, rather than people being worried over the sheer intellectual vileness of their beliefs, they say "Oh but they were polite!"

I don't think the hobby is filled with neo-Fascists or neo-Nazis, but I do think it is filled with people who understand what is appealing about those ideologies.

You can go on any discussion forum (here, Reddit, FB, whatever) and post something like "Virtues of the Eldar: they have and maintain a better quality of life for their people compared to the Imperium" and people will very soon fill it with xenophobic "HFY" (humanity feth yeah!) posts about why the Imperium is actually better and all mankind is better off and that the Imperium is totally justified in being as brutal and ruthless and bloody as it is.

People who act that way are very much the types who see the appeal in being "Hard Men who make Hard Decisions in a Hard World while Hard" which is basically a shorthand for neo-fascism imo.

This idea in particular ties into a lot of the more pernicious parts of Warhammer and its community.

I've been mostly avoiding discussion about the recent Black Templar release and BT discussions in general. Don't get me wrong: I think BTs are cool, and are a healthy edition to the setting with a lot of very famous and very beautiful sculpts. However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.

Obviously, every BT player I've seen on Dakka is a normal, politically acceptable individual, and there is of course nothing wrong with playing as the bad guys in a miniature game where most of the factions are also bad guys. The issue for me is that when I see someone I don't know talking about their love for the Christian-coded, militaristic, heavily armed, and overtly hypermasculine army of right-wing extremists with their knockoff iron cross logo and black, white, and red color scheme, It's hard for me to be sure if they're a fan of them as political commentary or for "other reasons." The Imperium in general has this problem to an extent, but the BTs are pretty blatant with their fascist imagery and that fact combined with their tenuous association with the setting's "good guys" draws in a certain crowd pretty easily.

I think this is one of the big reasons GW in particular has been having such a problem with Nazi fan communities. As the article in the OP says, the issue isn't just that there are neo-nazi Warhammer fans or fan communities: The "Warhammer Nazi" is a very specific and recognizable person who I've seen even people outside the 40k community make remarks about. It's the big issue of satire which was mentioned earlier in the thread. Not everyone is going to get that the Black Templars are the bad guys, and the kinds of people who won't get that will nearly universally play Black Templars.

I'm honestly not sure how GW could solve this problem without getting rid of a big part of 40k's legacy and appeal, and I'm open to other takes on this subject from everyone else in the thread. I'm sure some people will think of this as an overreaction, but it has been on my mind for quite a while and, I would argue, is a direct cause of problems such as this guy's decision to show up at a tournament covered in fascist apparel.

 insaniak wrote:
The thread has done a pretty good job of sticking to the topic so far. Let's not stray into discussions of which political system is worse, m'kay?

Thank you - I’m really enjoying reading this and don’t get off the rail too much guys. Stick to topic.

That being said - what can be done/rules to disallow this in the future. As mentioned previously in this thread, it seems the “Austrian artist” (his own moniker btw) is registered for an event in December. In America it’s quite easy to say we would throw them out, but apparently it is quite legal in Spain to sue someone for discrimination based on their…. Views… however despicable it may be. Sadly I would love to say “rely on common sense and decency to others,” but this specific situation seems to go against that saying heavily.

I’m going to steal what someone else said - but there is a saying that if you have one nazi at a table with five people then you have six nazis. Ideas like this, if left to foster and probe around for normality, need to be cut and burned at the absolute root, because if you allow this to fester then it leads to growth

 Thadin wrote:

But Cronch, you do know that every communist in power has committed genocide, right?

Yes, I am aware that Stalin, Mao and so forth were all paranoid authoritarians that murdered millions. The main difference is, they did it because they were awful human beings, not because communism demands all Ukrainians must starve to death. You can't be a n*zi and not believe the sub-humans, whoever they may be (we know who it may be, it's always the same people with them) need elimination. Subjugation of "inferior" races is the core tenet of that ideology.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

I personally don't buy into the claims of some people in the hobby that Warhammer is filled with neo-fascists or neo-Nazis. I do find there are concentrations of people I would describe as sympathisers (and on occasion, cryptos). The problem is when one of these people is spotted, rather than people being worried over the sheer intellectual vileness of their beliefs, they say "Oh but they were polite!"

We kinda are in a hobby where the core premise of the setting is to purge anyone of a different race or religion or who has genetic abnormalities or who sympathizes with any of the above because they pose a threat to our lives and immortal souls. We shouldn't be surprised if the proportion of bigots is a little higher than in the general population.

Sadly a lot of the humour in the original setting has been lost on some people.

40k was never meant to glamourise or champion such things... it was done to mock them, to take those things to there logical conclusion to show just how idiotic they are.

This is something that sadly I have seen people get less and less familiar with within the hobby. I think GW are partly to blame for it as they have toned down the 'Marines are space fascists', due to getting more and more popular. It means that they find themselves in an odd situation where they have to water down a lot of the concepts in their setting so that it appeals to a wider audience, while also trying to keep the older fans who arw more familiar with the setting happy that it is still 40k.

I honestly think that GW are going to steer 40k away from what it is, and turn it into a more generic dystopian sci-fantasy setting... they may even advance it to be set in 50k, much like they did with WFB. So talk of an ancient time before, etc, etc. Guilleman becomes the leader of the now noble and pure Domain of Man, who battle against Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons. The other Alien races are equally noble allies who sometimes help in the battle (Cities of Sigmar style). It might not happen suddenly, but I think it is going to happen gradually over time, we have seen a tone down on the Imperial Eagle within GW... so I think those at the helm are trying to change course.

Anyway. Any event should have R.O.A.R. (rights of administration reserved). If the organisers don't want an individual there, they should have the right to just say no.

The big issue I think is that we as a society need better ways to try to reach out to people who have slipped down that path. I understand how people can feel uncomfortable with the situation, and fully support their right not to play against such an individual. I just wonder if shunning and further being ostracised will only further cement their ideology?

While I'm not saying we should hug an extremist, as that can be very dangerous, we need to find ways to get people out of that ideology.

Much like Daryl Davis did.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis

yukishiro1 wrote:
(though that is clearly just a ridiculous empty threat).

I doubt this point specifically because that's exactly HOW these groups operate. They live in that grey area free speech laws afford and vigorously work to make sure people have to acknowledge where that line is and what freedoms they enjoy and often flaunt. I very much expect if they were kicked out that this group would have immediately filed a complaint and suit regardless of any actual outcome because doing so causes trouble for the organizers, forces the system to acknowledge their ability to be the jerks they are, and gives them a platform.

 Flipsiders wrote:
However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.

I think that's an absurd and massively reductive take on the BTs. They're medieval Crusaders through a 40k lens. Not fascists.

And Marines have never been "space-fascists".

Actually Jason Stanley described very adequately how fascist politics, even when they fail to put fascism in power, succeeds in destroying and weakening democracy and the power of credibility and the truth. He has a few videos where he intimately covers what defines fascism and discusses how the presence of fascism achieves the weakening of democracy and reason.