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 Flipsiders wrote:
However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.

I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.

dewd11 wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.

I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.

Wait - Red Scorpions? Do you mind if I ask why they pop up as Fascist popular armies (I really loved them back in the days when you could replace Sgts. with apothecaries)

fidel wrote:

dewd11 wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.

I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.

Wait - Red Scorpions? Do you mind if I ask why they pop up as Fascist popular armies (I really loved them back in the days when you could replace Sgts. with apothecaries)

They're all about purity

I swear, the whole anti fascist movement has gone off the rails in the US. But then again, its America, they aren't going to half ass anything.
Steering away from BT and other marine chapters based on some weird, and very weak, fascist association exemplifies the ridiculousness of it all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.

I think that's an absurd and massively reductive take on the BTs. They're medieval Crusaders through a 40k lens. Not fascists.

And Marines have never been "space-fascists".

While we can agree to disagree on the Marine front, the BTs pretty obviously incorporate some nazi and neo-nazi imagery, intentional or otherwise. Part of that is likely due to a shared point of origin (as you said, BTs are inspired by the Crusades, and crusader imagery is popular in far-right circles), but some of it definitely feels like either conscious or subconscious influence, namely the black cross and the color scheme. There's nothing inherently wrong with evoking that sort of imagery in a work of fiction—people love Star Wars, after all, and that's about as blatant as you can get—but for 40k in particular it often attracts the wrong sort of crowd. I remember quasi-ironic "God-Emperor Trump" jokes being all the rage in far-right communities during the 2016 election, as an easy example.

 bullyboy wrote:
I swear, the whole anti fascist movement has gone off the rails in the US. But then again, its America, they aren't going to half ass anything.
Steering away from BT and other marine chapters based on some weird, and very weak, fascist association exemplifies the ridiculousness of it all.

Again, there's nothing wrong with the BT chapter itself, just some members of its audience and, maybe more controversially, possibly the way GW has been handling discussion of the chapter over the past couple of years.

I think we are doing pretty good as a community considering that this is 1 guy/700 at 1 event/however many events have gone on since the last time this happened which I'm sure is at least a good few years worth. Good job guys.

 Flipsiders wrote:

Again, there's nothing wrong with the BT chapter itself, just some members of its audience and, maybe more controversially, possibly the way GW has been handling discussion of the chapter over the past couple of years.

There's nothing wrong with knives, just some of the people using them. (So we better ban knives.)



In the same sense, no knife maker is asked to be held to account and "handle discussion" of knives being used in violent crimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dewd11 wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:


I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.

I hope you are trolling with this comment

Imagine playing flames of war or bolt action with this childish concept.....

Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.

And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?

 Flipsiders wrote:
While we can agree to disagree on the Marine front...

Marines have never been "space-facists".

 Flipsiders wrote:
... the BTs pretty obviously incorporate some nazi and neo-nazi imagery, intentional or otherwise.

What?

 Flipsiders wrote:
Part of that is likely due to a shared point of origin (as you said, BTs are inspired by the Crusades, and crusader imagery is popular in far-right circles)...

Which isn't the same as Nazi symbology. You are drawing one long fething bow here.

 Flipsiders wrote:
... namely the black cross and the color scheme.

The black cross? You think it's the Iron Cross, which is a German military symbol not a Nazi symbol. It's the Maltese Cross, part of the joke being that they use Knights Hospitaller symbols rather than actual Knights Templar symbols. And are black and white "Nazi" colours now? Aren't they more associated with grey?

 Flipsiders wrote:
Again, there's nothing wrong with the BT chapter itself, just some members of its audience and, maybe more controversially, possibly the way GW has been handling discussion of the chapter over the past couple of years.

I think you're tilting at windmills here.

As an anti fascist I will say, I am a bit weirded out that someone would read into subfactions of space marines as being attractive to fascists and avoiding them for that reason. Doubly so because unless you’ve played a LOT of 40k I doubt you bothered to collect the data to justify this as little more than superstition. Just play the game and call the Nazis out as you sees them. Or use the cold shoulder. And don’t go looking for them. You’ll find what you are looking for even if it isn’t really there. The entire imperium of man is a satirical take on fascism and religious authoritarianism, of course you’ll find fascism in their factions if you go looking for it.

 bullyboy wrote:
I swear, the whole anti fascist movement has gone off the rails in the US. But then again, its America, they aren't going to half ass anything.
Steering away from BT and other marine chapters based on some weird, and very weak, fascist association exemplifies the ridiculousness of it all.

It's because our entire view of politics is currently a raging dumpster fire. People think and act emotionally, and will lash out at anyone who might just be trying to learn more about what is happening. In this case, there has been a lot of information in the threads that didn't exist in the original OP article, which itself is far more focused on outrage than actually telling us what happened, when and how.

I've been playing Warhammer for 7 years now and I've yet to meet one person that expressed fascist ideology or love for Nazism. I know tons of men and women who do play DKoK or BT (myself, I play BT) and none of us have any interest in Nazism. It's pretty silly, but identity politics has become huge, left or right, in the US in the past decade. I fear it's only going to get worse and worse as people continue to talk over each other instead of talking to each other.

GoldenHorde wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:

Again, there's nothing wrong with the BT chapter itself, just some members of its audience and, maybe more controversially, possibly the way GW has been handling discussion of the chapter over the past couple of years.

There's nothing wrong with knives, just some of the people using them. (So we better ban knives.)



In the same sense, no knife maker is asked to be held to account and "handle discussion" of knives being used in violent crimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dewd11 wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:


I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.

I hope you are trolling with this comment

Imagine playing flames of war or bolt action with this childish concept.....

I mean, for the first part, they just said that they personally avoid them, not to ban Black Templars forever, so I'm not sure what you are getting at there.

For the second, I think avoiding unvetted players in an area with an active KKK group seems somewhat reasonable, and not "childish" as you put it. If you want I could look up the fun things the KKK and KKK adjacent groups have done over the years for you if you really need to know why...

bullyboy wrote:Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.

And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?

Do they really call them "heroes"? That is kind of grotesque.

I mean, far right groups have co-opted several symbols over the years. At least around where I am, one trick to see at a glance if someone is a white supremacist is if they have an obvious iron cross.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
Part of that is likely due to a shared point of origin (as you said, BTs are inspired by the Crusades, and crusader imagery is popular in far-right circles)...

Which isn't the same as Nazi symbology. You are drawing one long fething bow here.

Crusader imagery is popular in far right circles, and some has been co-opted by white supremacists and nazis. If one views the Crusades as an "us vs them" mentality rather than a complex mess of bloody wars, its a convenient message - look at us strong great people protecting our virtues from "them".




On the topic of what to do if someone comes strolling into a tourney decked out in swasticas. If the organizers don't kick them out, I'd just leave. Life is too short to spend it with hate groups that literally want to kill people as a core tenant of their beliefs. If enough people walk, hopefully the tourney organizers take note, otherwise I suppose they are now the nazi tourney group while everyone else has moved on elsewhere.

 insaniak wrote:

 posermcbogus wrote:
Hey, so I really appreciate the work here to educate people, and honestly think it's very important, but I can't be the only dakkadakka user who works for a nation's civil service and browses at work...

Could we mayyyyybe host the extremist imagery off-site, please? I've worked with people in the past who would deadass just delete every trace of themselves from this site without even having posted in this thread (...like I have lol) because of how much spooky iconography is getting posted rn. Like I know it probably isn't against the rules and whatever, so sorry for armchair modding, but like - McBogus watches out for McBogus's ass.

I've gone through the thread and switched any hotlinked images to links. If we could all do that moving forward, that would be appreciated... that way at least people are only winding up with the images on their screen for a casual workmate passing by to see if they actually click on the link.

Very much appreciated Thank you very much.

 kurhanik wrote:

bullyboy wrote:Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.

And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?

Do they really call them "heroes"? That is kind of grotesque.

Have the books in front of me. One of Wittman's rules was "Hero of the Fatherland". I also have an army of 101st SS Schwere panzer Abteilung, 12th SS Hitkerjugend, plus dice to match. This is of course in addition to all my British, Americans and Soviets. Does it bother me? Not in the slightest.
I understand it's a game of toy soldiers between real combatants of history and not a projection of my personal beliefs. That's why I don't understand half the people on here who make absurd associations with 40K armies.

If someone modeled their army after WWII Germany soldiers (be it Guard or some form of Bloodaxe Orks), I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.

 bullyboy wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:

bullyboy wrote:Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.

And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?

Do they really call them "heroes"? That is kind of grotesque.

Have the books in front of me. One of Wittman's rules was "Hero of the Fatherland". I also have an army of 101st SS Schwere panzer Abteilung, 12th SS Hitkerjugend, plus dice to match. This is of course in addition to all my British, Americans and Soviets. Does it bother me? Not in the slightest.
I understand it's a game of toy soldiers between real combatants of history and not a projection of my personal beliefs. That's why I don't understand half the people on here who make absurd associations with 40K armies.

If someone modeled their army after WWII Germany soldiers (be it Guard or some form of Bloodaxe Orks), I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.

How about if they were wearing a swastika and making jokes about being an "Austrian painter" while playing?

Or are we still in the gymnastics competition for Nazis are a-ok and it's all everyone else's fault?

 ScarletRose wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:

bullyboy wrote:Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.

And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?

Do they really call them "heroes"? That is kind of grotesque.

Have the books in front of me. One of Wittman's rules was "Hero of the Fatherland". I also have an army of 101st SS Schwere panzer Abteilung, 12th SS Hitkerjugend, plus dice to match. This is of course in addition to all my British, Americans and Soviets. Does it bother me? Not in the slightest.
I understand it's a game of toy soldiers between real combatants of history and not a projection of my personal beliefs. That's why I don't understand half the people on here who make absurd associations with 40K armies.

If someone modeled their army after WWII Germany soldiers (be it Guard or some form of Bloodaxe Orks), I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.

How about if they were wearing a swastika and making jokes about being an "Austrian painter" while playing?

Or are we still in the gymnastics competition for Nazis are a-ok and it's all everyone else's fault?

Think I made my point clear in an earlier post, perhaps scan back up and check it out if your attention span allows for it.

 kurhanik wrote:
Crusader imagery is popular in far right circles, and some has been co-opted by white supremacists and nazis. If one views the Crusades as an "us vs them" mentality rather than a complex mess of bloody wars, its a convenient message - look at us strong great people protecting our virtues from "them".

And nothing in this paragraph in any way means that Black Templars are inspired by, promote, display or otherwise show "Nazi symbolism" or are "fascist". Something being co-oped by another group doesn't make the original thing into that thing. Similarly, a fictional thing that is inspired by said original thing doesn't suddenly become bad because of a third party's co-opting of something from that original thing.

This reminds me of all those people who says "You like Darth Vader? Well that means you're a fascist and support the things the Empire did!". It's absurd.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


And Marines have never been "space-fascists".

Sorry to break it to you, but like I said earlier:

'40k was never meant to glamourise or champion such things... it was done to mock them, to take those things to there logical conclusion to show just how idiotic they are.'

The IoM is a satirical take on facisim, as Marines are its Ubermen... they are (or at least were coded as fascists in space). A bit like how Judge Dredd is a brutal fascists as well... but is some how OK in his world. Marines like Dredd take the whole 'Strong men in hard times make hard choices' and run with it to show how stupid such a thing is. The whole 'strong men' thing is a classic component of facisim. This isn't he same as me saying 'people are not allowed to play Marines or enjoy Judge Dredd'. Personally I think censorship is stupid, don't like a form of entertainment... avoid it.

This all being said, I do think that there is a bit of a craze at the moment to look for facisim. Not sure if this is due to concept creep, paranoia, or people just spending too much time online in their own echo Chambers... which results in seeing everything in a black & white mindset.

All SM are space fascists, so staying away from BT players is complete nonsense. They're fascists in the way the empire from Star Wars is fascist, and who don't like stormtroopers and siths? Ultramarines have simbols from the roman empire, which were adopted by italian fascism.

I'm a proud lefty but I adore the BT aesthetics. It has a medieval vibe, which is awesome for the 40k setting. In fact along with SW, another army with some medieval vibe, they're the only SM models that I actually like.

Cronch wrote:

 Thadin wrote:

But Cronch, you do know that every communist in power has committed genocide, right?

Yes, I am aware that Stalin, Mao and so forth were all paranoid authoritarians that murdered millions. The main difference is, they did it because they were awful human beings, not because communism demands all Ukrainians must starve to death. You can't be a n*zi and not believe the sub-humans, whoever they may be (we know who it may be, it's always the same people with them) need elimination. Subjugation of "inferior" races is the core tenet of that ideology.

The contrast in how Nazi symbols are unacceptable in social situations while communist or imperialist symbols are tolerated is a fascinating topic of discussion. Just not here.

Defending the guy wearing nazi symbology is why he thought to do it in the first place. Clearly comfortable enough to publicly walk around wearing it, even go to an event. That says a lot about the community they find themselves.

I have to ask, what exactly is the point of this endless cyclical discussion online where as soon as people say Nazis are bad you get this "oh but communism buh huhr"?
Is it just that you aren't fans of association?

 Olthannon wrote:
Defending the guy wearing nazi symbology is why he thought to do it in the first place. Clearly comfortable enough to publicly walk around wearing it, even go to an event. That says a lot about the community they find themselves.

I have to ask, what exactly is the point of this endless cyclical discussion online where as soon as people say Nazis are bad you get this "oh but communism buh huhr"?
Is it just that you aren't fans of association?

It's not the example of the tournament player in the OP. who had some far right iconography.
It's more about the segue into the loons who senselessly run around calling everyone a nazi.
They need to grow up and sadly the moderators tolerate their bs

I mean look at the comic in the original link. "Some odin gak" It's actually disrespectful to people with a norse heritage...kinda racist too

You know..."some odin gak" is actually some people's cultural heritage.

I mean that comic explains everything wrong with those people's thinking.

The comic telling players that if they play faction X,Y, or Z they're NAZIS. This whole thread is a pretense to push that agenda. They don't really give a crap about fringe groups in spain who have extremist views.

You know aphyon copped a week ban for this moronic hysteria.......because his avatar was norse heritage and some clown claimed it was neo-nazi.

As something of an outside observer here I think there are actually two conversations happening in this thread at the same time and being interwoven and intermixed when they should really be separate topics:

1) was the guy at the Spanish tournament a Nazi and should Nazis or any extremists be allowed at tournaments? - answer, clearly yes he was and no they clearly shouldn't be. Probably doesn't even need any more discussion.

2) does the 40k setting and established lore sit with current moral, political and social trends and if not, what is its future? - a much more complex discussion as the whole point of the 40K universe is that its all shared of grey and black which is tricky in todays social and political climate when people have to talk in simple absolutes. However its a conversation that will decide the future of the game and GWs fanbase.

I think if we take out of the equation specific ideologies or behaviours that some people may, or may not find offensive, I have always believed there is an unwritten, social contract at any public event.

In our club it's called "Don't be a dick".

One of the best aspects of wargaming is the ability to turn up at an event, meet a total stranger, and share a common interest that even has a common language.

I could go to an event and meet someone that doesn't necessarily speak the same language as me, but still be able to play a game as the rules are the same.

I can also meet people form all walks of life, people I may not meet in any other circumstance, and enjoy a game and learn about people through a shared experience.

Sadly, that can also be a negative experience, as in the case of the topic of this thread.

If I sign up to an event, that requires me to spend 90 minutes with a complete stranger, then I expect to at least have a good time, but that also requires myself and my opponent to be respectful of each other and ensure both of us have a good time.

It's absolutely the case that you are going to meet and spend time with people that you might not necessarily choose to outside of the event, but that's what you signed up for.

However, it's not (usually) possible to tell a person's political beliefs, sexuality or any other defining aspects of their character just by looking at them, and you would expect in 90 minute game to be discussing their army and their rules rather than getting to know them intimately.

Unless they are overtly displaying those traits either through their army (real world references in painting etc), their behaviour or overt signs such as tattoos, dress etc.

Outside of a public event, if I walked past "The Austrian Painter" in question - would I personally want to spend 90 minutes of my time with them? Absolutely not, because I could guess the type of person they are just from their overt display of their political affiliation.

But within the confines of an event where pairings are random you don't have much of a choice aside from walk away, but then you have paid money to participate in something that you didn't get to do.

Had the player in question not been so blatant there's a chance you could have a game with him and be none the wiser.

But I think it's also a slippery slope to judge people on appearance and dictating what they can and can't wear, unless it's offensive.

And so we go back to the unwritten social contract.

It should be the responsibility of every player to be mindful of their actions and behaviours, and to "not be a dick".

And if another player finds something you have said, done, implied etc offensive and they ask you to stop doing it, you apologise and don't do it.

So the question is - if the event organisers informed him that what he was wearing was offensive and wold he mind covering it up, would he have done so?

I doubt it, as if he was following the "unwritten" contract he wouldn't have worn it in the first place.

 Olthannon wrote:
Defending the guy wearing nazi symbology is why he thought to do it in the first place. Clearly comfortable enough to publicly walk around wearing it, even go to an event. That says a lot about the community they find themselves.

I have to ask, what exactly is the point of this endless cyclical discussion online where as soon as people say Nazis are bad you get this "oh but communism buh huhr"?
Is it just that you aren't fans of association?

If you look back to the 1930's, the fascists loved using communism as a bogeyman there too. And they'd also hype up how terrible anti-fascists were and how they were just defending themselves. It's pretty much the same playbook.

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
Defending the guy wearing nazi symbology is why he thought to do it in the first place. Clearly comfortable enough to publicly walk around wearing it, even go to an event. That says a lot about the community they find themselves.

I have to ask, what exactly is the point of this endless cyclical discussion online where as soon as people say Nazis are bad you get this "oh but communism buh huhr"?
Is it just that you aren't fans of association?

It's not the example of the tournament player in the OP. who had some far right iconography.
It's more about the segue into the loons who senselessly run around calling everyone a nazi.
They need to grow up and sadly the moderators tolerate their bs

I mean look at the comic in the original link. "Some odin gak" It's actually disrespectful to people with a norse heritage...kinda racist too

You know..."some odin gak" is actually some people's cultural heritage.

I mean that comic explains everything wrong with those people's thinking.

The comic telling players that if they play faction X,Y, or Z they're NAZIS. This whole thread is a pretense to push that agenda. They don't really give a crap about fringe groups in spain who have extremist views.

You know aphyon copped a week ban for this moronic hysteria.......because his avatar was norse heritage and some clown claimed it was neo-nazi.

O man this is a sore spot for me. I have Swedish heritage, but I cannot wear anything Nordic or Viking because Nazis have appropriated it and there is no such thing as nuance or context anymore. Amusingly though, apparently "nazi" symbols only count on BT and the Space Wolves get a pass because space beards are really that cool. Its....painfully inconsistent.

Bringing it back to topic, wouldn't a "this is a public event so we reserve the right to enforce a dress code" type rule effectively work. It means that "yes you have to wear pants" "I'm sorry that jacket violates our dress code, if you do not change into something else we will have to ask you to leave" It's a little different from outright asking someone to because you don't agree with their personal politics. I'm not from Spain so I cannot comment on your laws, but kicking him out because "we don't like your nazi symbols" would be attacking him for political/religious reasons which are both protected classes in my home state. "Multiple players have refused to play with you and this is causing a disturbance for our tournament" would be much more likely to fly. Especially if you offer them the option to get changed or something to de-escalate first.

Was he booted?
I would have not played with such a person, loss or not.

I have a hard time punishing people for their beliefs and opinions. Too close to thought police for my taste.
Was he handing out propaganda?was his army painted or modelled offensively? Did he even espouse any beliefs? Was he in any way a jerk?

The idea is to stop the mindset I would think acting like his silly ideas don't matter at all would go further than giving them the power to make everyone lose their gak over lines printed on a shirt.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I have a hard time punishing people for their beliefs and opinions. Too close to thought police for my taste.
Was he handing out propaganda?was his army painted or modelled offensively? Did he even espouse any beliefs? Was he in any way a jerk?

The idea is to stop the mindset I would think acting like his silly ideas don't matter at all would go further than giving them the power to make everyone lose their gak over lines printed on a shirt.

I would hesitate to believe that. Nazis are way too comfortable. See the tiki torch rally and the dudes marching down Washington DC chanting “blood and soil” and other nazi slogans in Nazi garb. Fascists are a fringe portion of punk because punk rockers did everything they could to make Nazis uncomfortable in their culture. See the song “nazi punks f*ck off.” In America they march in DC because we defend their entitlement to their opinion. Fascist politics, even in the best of cases are absolutely toxic to the health of a democracy.

macluvin wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I have a hard time punishing people for their beliefs and opinions. Too close to thought police for my taste.
Was he handing out propaganda?was his army painted or modelled offensively? Did he even espouse any beliefs? Was he in any way a jerk?

The idea is to stop the mindset I would think acting like his silly ideas don't matter at all would go further than giving them the power to make everyone lose their gak over lines printed on a shirt.

I would hesitate to believe that. Nazis are way too comfortable. See the tiki torch rally and the dudes marching down Washington DC chanting “blood and soil” and other nazi slogans in Nazi garb. Fascists are a fringe portion of punk because punk rockers did everything they could to make Nazis uncomfortable in their culture. See the song “nazi punks f*ck off.” In America they march in DC because we defend their entitlement to their opinion. Fascist politics, even in the best of cases are absolutely toxic to the health of a democracy.

Tiki torch rally when? Washington or Charlottesville?

I believe the only threat to the health of a democracy is dismissing people based on their beliefs. That's literally what democracy is for, to hear the opinions of the entire population. The least democratic thing I can think of is silencing people for their beliefs, which is kinda Facist.