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 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

I could not find in the official material any reference to GW sponsoring the tournament so there is little GW can do other than say do not use our trademarks in your posters. And even in that case I don't know if that's possible, it would be akin to Porche saying we forbid nazis to drive our cars.

M.

 Formosa wrote:
I am totally fine with banning Nazis, also want Commies, fascists, Pinkos and Tankies banned and all derivatives removed from polite society.

which has some far reaching consequences, or, we can live in this liberal society and try to tolerate the evil scum that support the above so long as they do not harm people, after all that is what tolerance means even if we find it hard.

I have no problem banning anyone espousing an ideology that literally calls for genocide. I have no time for interacting with people like that, least of all at a wargaming tournament. That doesn't just include Nazis but may not include communists (in the strictest sense of the term, anyway). There's a distinction to be made between ideologies that intrinsically call for genocide and those that have been used to justify it without it necessarily being a defining trait of that ideology.

If we were to widen the context of discussion there are certainly grey areas to discuss. You know what isn't a grey area? Nazis.

Just thinking about the last large tournament I attended, I'd say about 10% of people there were clearly from a group that this scumbag's ideology would like to see exterminated. Who knows how many others were similarly affected in less obvious ways? In what sane world are we saying it's OK for a tournament to welcome these people? Why is there so much hand-wringing over ejecting someone form a tournament whose ideology would like to see some of the participants murdered? Am I supposed to spend my free time playing a game with a guy who would like to see my son, my wife and her entire family exterminated? Is that something I'm supposed to tolerate in any situation, never mind a goddamn game of toy soldiers?

 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?

Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?

Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater

A major part of the complaints here are also about the actions of the TO. According to reports from the attendees the TO seemed more concerned with banning players using recasts than ejecting the Nazis from his tournament. I don't think GW will make any sort of statement here as I don't think they were really that involved in the tournament, but I don't see why it would be unreasonable for them to view the TO's behaviour as something they don't want to endorse as a company.

If they were to take action it would likely be linked to the specific TOs, for the specific inaction that has been identified. That may hurt the Spanish scene but that's kind of incidental to the message as a whole and the reason for taking the action.

Maybe corporations targeting individuals isn't really something we want to be calling for? Just a thought...

As long as people don't bring up or show any political affiliations I think the best way to go forward as a society is to actually encourage Nazis, communists and other groups that all look down on other people, be it due to race, religion, class or sexuality, to attend normal events like a warhammer tournament. It is damn hard to be hateful against people you have had a good time with. Sure they can use logic like "that individual was nice but X group should still be discriminated/killed/abused" but it will still create some small doubt in their mind that later can be the key point to make them discard their hateful ideology and become an upstanding person in society. You have to show tolerance and extend a branch for them to grab onto. As long as it is only bad stuff in their head and they haven't done anything unforgivable there needs to be an option open to them or things will only get worse in the future if those people become even more radicalized.

There should of course be a zero tolerance policy for them to show nazi symbolism and equivalent or behave in a bad manner against other players or attendants of the event. As long as they act in good faith and behave there is no problem. But as soon as they break those rules they should be booted. We can't and shouldn't try to monitor thoughts but actions should have consequences.

I don't think I have played against any actual Nazis, at least not that I know of. but I have played with or against people who have spouted other hateful things on social media or other places outside of the game being played. I don't really mind as long as none of it shows up when we play. I won't try to learn to know the person more afterwards though if I know their political beliefs and if those also are important to that persons identity. Not worth the time but I can still have fun at a game. I do have friends that are extremely left wing/some kind of communist (not woke though) while I am more of a right wing nationalist(at least in a swedish context) but we all know to leave politics behind when we meet and play games. We are after all trying to get away from reality and relax and leave controversial topics at home.

Hopefully they can make sure their next event isn't sullied by these neo fascists or whatever they are in a way that doesn't open them up for discrimination charges or hits with too broad of a brush and make the rules feel oppressive.

 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

One would hope - GW has made statements in the past banning such behavior. Sadly private events can do what they please.

Further - apparently this self-proclaimed “Austrian artist” is registered for another event in December. So we will see.

GW doesn't control what independent events choose to do and about the only thing GW could do is cut trade ties to any sponsoring vendor for the event. GW don't really have a huge hand in most events and even when they do turn up to an outside event its more as a booth/stand than to organise/run the event. GW is super hands off most competitive events.


So in general there isn't really anything for GW to do in this situation; this is a social matter for the TO and their group/event to discuss and sort out for themselves.

I don't think GW will or needs to make a statement about that tournament or the TO in specific, given it was not officially affiliated with them.

Making what happened known to the wider tournament public so people can make a decision wether they attend another time, or the TO to reflect on possible policies, is more important imho.

There's really no need to get GW involved. It's entirely on the TOs to decide if they're fine with having this kind of customer turn up for their event or not.

Like, if you're fine with hakenkreuzes at your tournament it's fine with me too, just let me know so i don't turn up.

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?

Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater

That sounds like a really good idea! Don't want to lose support, then purge the Nazis from your events and show zero tolerance to anyone who starts spewing their rhetoric. This is not the faintest bit controversial. Why would anyone NOT want to do that, unless they were the sort of failed human who tries to make excuses for Nazis?


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Slipspace wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I am totally fine with banning Nazis, also want Commies, fascists, Pinkos and Tankies banned and all derivatives removed from polite society.

which has some far reaching consequences, or, we can live in this liberal society and try to tolerate the evil scum that support the above so long as they do not harm people, after all that is what tolerance means even if we find it hard.

I have no problem banning anyone espousing an ideology that literally calls for genocide. I have no time for interacting with people like that, least of all at a wargaming tournament. That doesn't just include Nazis but may not include communists (in the strictest sense of the term, anyway). There's a distinction to be made between ideologies that intrinsically call for genocide and those that have been used to justify it without it necessarily being a defining trait of that ideology.

The fascist apologists in this thread know that perfectly well, they're just playing meaingless whataboutism games so that Nazis don't appear that bad. Why they're doing that is left to the reader's imagination, but it's not too hard to draw conclusions.

Klickor wrote:
As long as people don't bring up or show any political affiliations I think the best way to go forward as a society is to actually encourage Nazis, communists and other groups that all look down on other people, be it due to race, religion, class or sexuality, to attend normal events like a warhammer tournament. It is damn hard to be hateful against people you have had a good time with. Sure they can use logic like "that individual was nice but X group should still be discriminated/killed/abused" but it will still create some small doubt in their mind that later can be the key point to make them discard their hateful ideology and become an upstanding person in society. You have to show tolerance and extend a branch for them to grab onto. As long as it is only bad stuff in their head and they haven't done anything unforgivable there needs to be an option open to them or things will only get worse in the future if those people become even more radicalized.

That comes at the expense of creating a hostile environment for anyone who feels uncomfortable sharing an event with a known Nazi. Also known as "anyone with a shred of decency". And I don't think any event wants to be known in far-right circles as "that place that's friendly to people like us".

 Elemental wrote:

That comes at the expense of creating a hostile environment for anyone who feels uncomfortable sharing an event with a known Nazi. Also known as "anyone with a shred of decency". And I don't think any event wants to be known in far-right circles as "that place that's friendly to people like us".

Don't think it would be much of a problem in the long run. They won't be allowed to promote their ideology or they will be kicked so quite a few probably won't show up just for that reason alone and some won't be able to if they have nazi symbols on their models or have visible tats with nazi symbols. So those that do show up are probably a minority of the group of nazi's that are more on the fringe rather than so deep in it they wouldn't be able to ever come out of it. If they can't be there with ulterior motives they have to be a bit open minded since they sign up with the knowledge they will have to play against people they might see as beneath them and not being able to do a thing. Many people that are drawn to the extreme fringes are looking for company and people that accept them and not only people that are deep into the specific religion/ideology. If you can show them they can be accepted in another larger and more welcoming community they might not stay in that hateful group for long.

It is important though that the organizers and people around have a zero tolerance policy against anything not decent and are willing to actually act on it and instantly kick them out or ban them if they misbehave. Just because you are tolerant doesn't mean you shouldn't have boundaries. Should be same rules for everyone. Lately identity politics have taken up too much space in public discourse and certain actions have been differently judged due to what group they belong to. Doesn't matter if you align or not with their politics, the rules and treatment should be the same. If you are left leaning then don't let communists get away with bad behavior against right wing people just because you align to them a bit. Same with right wing people if there are conservative christians who act rude to gay people at an event. If you don't let any bad behavior slip by no matter who the bad behavior came from it shouldn't be hard to expel Nazi's when they act up without getting any negative backlash.

How much rope can I be expected to give someone who views me as subhuman? Who would reduce the value of my friends to how much labor they can produce in relation to the calories they consume? Who would take the institutions I hold dear and undermine and subvert them to their own ends? Who brazenly say "I wish to pervert the justice system, exploit liberal democracy, doctor history to deny my crimes, and absolve my martyrs, at the expense of all of those institutions, which I seek to destroy, and I have no shame about the terroristic violence I wish to use for those aims", to those who would reduce my children to ratios of 'pure' blood and pseudo-scientific cranial measurements? Greater men than I would say, "just enough that their feet can't touch the ground."
For those of you who think maybe we could try to be permissive about this particular breed of extremist in civil society - ask the German Jewish people, the trade unionists, the social democrats, the conscientious objectors, the mixed-race children, the handicapped, the socialists, ad infinitum of 1930s Germany, just how well that experiment worked for their society. They might have a hard time answering you.
There is a very good reason that these groups have to endlessly go into hiding, re-group and re-brand. Very simply put, it's because by their very nature, they cannot refrain from breaking the law. There is an inevitability to their criminality, purely out of the nature of their worldview. Because that is the kind of creature a fascist is. He is a terrorist. There is nothing more to be said about someone who subscribes to an ideology of racialist war.
How would you feel as the father of a nerdy Jewish boy, coming home from this tournament, too flustered and scared to say anything at the time? As a black kid suddenly finding out that this was their partner? As any number of Spanish minorities whose inalienable right to exist as an inoffensive, innocent, beautiful and inherently valuable member of the human race, simply trying to have a fun weekend was deliberately and knowingly attacked by this man? An attack completely, if accounts are accurate, upheld and protected by the TO?

Have any of you actually been in a situation where you've encountered actual exterminationists? Like, not gakky footie hooligans who have a vague notion of like, this thing they heard of called sharia law, and have nothing even resembling comprehension of, but they've been told they wouldn't like it, but like, actual people calling for genocide?

I have.

It's unreal.

I was on a date with a Korean lover of mine, when in Osaka we took a wrong turn, and found ourselves face to face with a convoy of Imperialists, calling on the government to retract all it's (very few) apologies for the war, go back to the military government and the immediate deportation of all Koreans.

It's a unique feeling.

I'll never forget it. There isn't anything that stings quite like the injustice of looking down into the face of someone you love, and them trying to put a brave smile on it, grimacing at what had been the previously pleasant discussion about what to have for lunch and saying saying "no, it's fine, it happens" when really it's not fine, nothing about that situation is fair, and it shouldn't happen. No one trying to have fun, minding their own business, should have a reminder thrown in their faces that actually, some people regard them as subhuman, and loudly want them to suffer. Against a stream of military-styled pickup trucks, you become very aware that you are just one man, sinew, bones, soft tissue.

Nothing about a Sunday afternoon of fun should involve that for anyone, ever, it's fethed up.

This is an event, widely publicized now, which indirectly reflects on all of us. This is a hobby we share with this man. How many of you are willing to say "Yes, I'd see this man, shrug my shoulders and move along?"

The fething slippery goalposts of people trying to divert the conversation to be about "Yes, well I also hate other kinds of political extremists! Did you know communists are also very, very bad?" are missing the point appallingly hard. I know the OP is a bit strongly worded. I know the article linked by OP is VERY strongly worded. But you're all missing the point by a country mile here. But you know what? Nazis went out of their way to kill millions, and start a war that killed millions more. I think people are entitled to a strong reaction.

Because, as much as this thread FEATURES a neo-nazi, it's not really about neo-nazis. It's about us, as a community. It's about our reaction, in gaming, to someone deliberately being SO anti-social in this hobby, about bending rules and manipulating social norms just so they can signpost their repugnant views at one of OUR community events, about using OUR space to try to make an environment that accepts this kind of exterminationist, racist bs, and what we as individuals, and what we as a community would, can, and should do to make this hobby a better place, not only for ourselves, and our own personal comfort, but for everyone.
Nerds aren't only white Europeans. Nerds come in a whole, wonderful, nerdy rainbow, with fascinations in all kinds of stuff. They enrich our own nerddom with their ideas, their views, with their enthusiasms for things we hadn't even heard of, but sound pretty cool. If we deny them a place at our table, we hurt ourselves, because at the end of the day, we're all here because we really like silly nerdy stuff.
My local GW was at the periphery between the town center, and a really deprived part of town. I want to live in a world where nerdy kids who grew up poor, or from a minorty background can feel just as welcomed and comfortable walking into that GW as I do. Who can leave all the bs of microagressions, of societal expectations, of school, bullies, work, stress, whatever, at the door, and talk about skeleton warriors, can be excited about space marines, can roll dice with me, and break bread.
Exterminationists? Nazis? To that ancient question - "who will help me bake this bread?" They would shoot all the animals who were not capable of toiling in the field, would enslave their children in dangerous kitchens, and end up with a world where all eat maggot-filled flour, hiding in a concrete ruin.

This is a fething forum for playing with little space men for feth's sake. What is so hard for some of you with this? Any kind of ideology that espouses this drivel is abhorrent. This guy is a sad little scumbag. The Tourney is weak for not just giving him the boot, and for once, I actually hope GWs judicious IP lawyers are well-placed. Sod fan animations, this is what they should be going after. And really, this kind of anti-social, hate-filled, violence-promoting behavior is something that should be easy for all of us to condemn.

It's odd that it's so hard for some of you.

Klickor wrote:

I don't think I have played against any actual Nazis, at least not that I know of. but I have played with or against people who have spouted other hateful things on social media or other places outside of the game being played. I don't really mind as long as none of it shows up when we play.

So you would be fine with the sort of scenario where like in the TV series Red Dwarf where the crew enjoy playing cards with senior Nazi figures as they are fine unless you talk about politics? It’s extreme but it brings up the question is there any type of person you wouldn’t associate with if they weren’t openly espousing or doing at that moment in time something you don’t agree with?

I won't try to learn to know the person more afterwards though if I know their political beliefs and if those also are important to that persons identity. Not worth the time but I can still have fun at a game. I do have friends that are extremely left wing/some kind of communist (not woke though) while I am more of a right wing nationalist(at least in a swedish context) but we all know to leave politics behind when we meet and play games.

To be clear being what is caricatured as woke has zero to do with traditional left wing politics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?

Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater

That is what happened to English football due to the actions of a few hooligans. Disproportionate, unfair, discriminatory. Also effective and a better match day atmosphere today.

EDIT- You know what? Sod this. I'm not getting involved...

The_Real_Chris wrote:

So you would be fine with the sort of scenario where like in the TV series Red Dwarf where the crew enjoy playing cards with senior Nazi figures as they are fine unless you talk about politics? It’s extreme but it brings up the question is there any type of person you wouldn’t associate with if they weren’t openly espousing or doing at that moment in time something you don’t agree with?


To be clear being what is caricatured as woke has zero to do with traditional left wing politics.

Don't know what is meant with senior Nazi figures here but if it is anything like WW2 nazis that actually took part of a genocide I would of course not be fine with playing them. I wouldn't be fine with them being able to play cards with anyone outside of a prison cell. I am assuming, and might be wrong about this, that most modern day nazi's that would show up to a 40k tournament without any nazi symbols on them and also not spouting any hateful rhetoric and be able to play through an event with people from all walks of life isn't that hardcore of a Nazi but most likely a misguided person in the wrong crowd and with help from society could be pulled out of it. But people convicted of actual hateful crimes, especially violent ones, I think should be a basis to ban people from events due to. Not sure if it is even legal everywhere or even feasible but I would be fine with banning rapists, murderers or any other of the worse violent crimes there is no matter the political background.

The extreme ends are quite often brought up in media and if you were to believe everything that was said then the world would look like 45% antifa, 45% fascists and 10% cowardly fence sitters. But truth is the actual extremists of those ideologies in the west are quite few in numbers and even among those there are shades of gray before you reach the really lost people that there is no hope for. I think that is important to remember. Not so much for the actual authoritarian's sake but for society at large. Hooligans, KKK, antifa, neo-nazis, BLM rioters(not the legitimate protesters) and a few other groups have a ton of people in them that care more for acting out violence and having a sense of belonging than they care about the current ideology of the group they are a part of. Not that uncommon to see people having been part of more than one violent group like that. Jumping from an antifa group to the "opposite" neo-nazi group. Or the reverse. Give them a sense of belonging and meaning to their life and most likely you can pull them out before they do stupid stuff that will ruin their own or others life for ever.

I know woke don't have much with a lot of left wing traditional politics which is why I mentioned that they weren't woke. Just the quickest way to get my meaning across. Should perhaps have just said "traditional" before "left wing".

Lovely sentiment which changes nothing about the fact that White Power and n*zi-adjecent iconography has no place at a tournament. You can reach out to the people who believe "hitler did nothing wrong" in your own spare time to convince them that it is in fact wrong to want to murder whole ethnicities, but at no point should they be left feeling like they belong WHILE spouting their nonsense.

Cronch wrote:
Lovely sentiment which changes nothing about the fact that White Power and n*zi-adjecent iconography has no place at a tournament. You can reach out to the people who believe "hitler did nothing wrong" in your own spare time to convince them that it is in fact wrong to want to murder whole ethnicities, but at no point should they be left feeling like they belong WHILE spouting their nonsense.

100% agree. Just making sure you didn't get the opposite from my previous post. The people in the OP should have been kicked from the event if possible and even more preferably not even have been let in through the front door.

I am in two minds about this.

On one hand, I get wary when I hear the words 'ban the Nazis' because normally Nazi is a blanket term to label anyone insufficiently woke. This is even true here as Neo-Nazis are rarely actual Nazis, National Socialism has been dead since the 1940's and its last adherents from that time are all very old.

On the other hand, these appear to be genuine Neo-Nazis.

So what to do. How to marry both of the below:
A. It is not fair to discriminate.
B. TO's are not obliged to welcome everyone, and can bar people for bad behaviour.

I think the correct way to handle this is for the TO's to approach the contestants and say that their attire 'causes offence'.
It must therefore be removed, if no alternate wear is provided offensive T-shirts can be worn inside out.
If they do so, play on, opponents can be informed of their right to take offence to the attire, but not to the individual if they comply with basic moral standards.
If the contestants refuse, then you have moral resource to exercise your rights to exclude them from the venue.
If the contestant is removed before they start playing they should be refunded tournament entry fee, otherwise not.


Two comments:
Again I am wary over that blanket term 'causes offence', as the right to be offended is lobsided, as is application, and the term is politicised and not used impartially in modern society. These imbalances do nothing but fuel far right extremism. However by almost any definition Neo-Nazis fit the bill of offensive and unwanted. To the extent that it is something that both right and left can agree on.

And for the record the right and alt-right would likely be the first to the army recruiting centre if a real Reich was to emerge from the darkness.



As for the cross in the circle symbol.
It is another ancient symbol hijacked by the extreme right.
It is an astrological symbol, and represents Terra. It is of the same family of symbols as the Masculine Mars symbol and the Feminine Venus symbol. It is as harmless as the Hindu swastika, but.....

 Orlanth wrote:
I think the correct way to handle this is for the TO's to approach the contestants and say that their attire 'causes offence'.
It must therefore be removed, if no alternate wear is provided offensive T-shirts can be worn inside out.
If they do so, play on, opponents can be informed of their right to take offence to the attire, but not to the individual if they comply with basic moral standards.
If the contestants refuse, then you have moral resource to exercise your rights to exclude them from the venue.
If the contestant is removed before they start playing they should be refunded tournament entry fee, otherwise not.

This is the only correct course of action. It’s the appropriate middle ground that gives everyone a chance to treat one another like human beings.

Eh, I think it's pretty much fine to take offence to the individual at that point since, you know, they're a dude that tried to rep for the reich at a toy soldiers event and no amount of t-shirt flipping makes anyone obliged to forget what actions just happened.

Except of course we know for a fact that one of those does not see the other as human beings. If the person did, they'd not be into an ideology that specifically teaches some humans are less than people. A neo-nazi with his swastika-shirt in a backpack is just as much of a neonazi, and no one involved can miss the point surely?

The question is- is the symbol offensive, or is the belief espoused by the symbol offensive?

I realize this will irk the legalists among us, but context is important. This is the kind of nonsense approach that sees the bully and the victim that punched back both punished for "fighting" at school.

Cronch wrote:
Except of course we know for a fact that one of those does not see the other as human beings. If the person did, they'd not be into an ideology that specifically teaches some humans are less than people. A neo-nazi with his swastika-shirt in a backpack is just as much of a neonazi, and no one involved can miss the point surely?
.

The problem with this is that dehumanisation is not solely the preserve of Neo-Nazis, cancel culture is full of people who believe that others who do not share their ideology or race are inferiors, and most cancellers are not far right.
Where do you draw the line?

Ah yes, "cancel culture", of which we know because the "victims" of it are telling us all about how they got "cancelled". LOL, totally comparable to "I think gays and jews should go into the oven"

 Orlanth wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Except of course we know for a fact that one of those does not see the other as human beings. If the person did, they'd not be into an ideology that specifically teaches some humans are less than people. A neo-nazi with his swastika-shirt in a backpack is just as much of a neonazi, and no one involved can miss the point surely?
.

The problem with this is that dehumanisation is not solely the preserve of Neo-Nazis, cancel culture is full of people who believe that others who do not share their ideology or race are inferiors, and most cancellers are not far right.
Where do you draw the line?

It's a neo-nazi under discussion here. Why so very interested in deflecting from that?

 Orlanth wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Except of course we know for a fact that one of those does not see the other as human beings. If the person did, they'd not be into an ideology that specifically teaches some humans are less than people. A neo-nazi with his swastika-shirt in a backpack is just as much of a neonazi, and no one involved can miss the point surely?
.

The problem with this is that dehumanisation is not solely the preserve of Neo-Nazis, cancel culture is full of people who believe that others who do not share their ideology or race are inferiors, and most cancellers are not far right.
Where do you draw the line?

You let me know when "cancel culture" is advocating for genocide, and I'll be right there with you. That's where I draw the line, personally. Crazy, right?

"Cancel culture"/"woke culture"/"twitter activists" might not advocate for genocide but it does set up sides and feeds into the "we vs them" narrative that leads to people seeing those that aren't on their side as worse people than they really are in a way to dehumanize them.

It is fair game in current times to dehumanize Nazis and is also quite common to brand the opposition as Nazis thus dehumanizing normal right wingers. This dehumanization and false accusations leads to both violence and increased tensions. A good example of this is the antifa guy who last year went up behind what I think was a trump supporter in a MAGA hat and shot him in the back of his head in a cold blooded execution. Some people even think that was a good act since to them the guy killed was the same as a Nazi and everyone thinks it's fine to use violence against those right?

Just because something isn't as bad as literal Nazis and the holocaust doesn't mean it isn't a bad way to do things. This riling up tensions on both sides and dehumanizing each other is actually something that if brought to a point could actually lead to massacres, civil war or even a genocide. Wars and genocides have been done over less and humans in mob that think they have justice on their side can do horrible things for the right cause.

Too much dehumanization and ostracizing can actually strengthen groups as Neo-Nazis justifying their ideology and beliefs and then things get only worse. We should treat the individuals as humans as far as we can like any other person, as long as they haven't really done anything bad besides their thoughts, but show a firm stance against their ideology. Then they can't set up a narrative where they are the victims which would weaken their movement.

Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.

This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".

We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.

Cronch wrote:
Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.

This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".

We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.

"It's political correctness gone maaaaad!"

(Won't somebody think of the slippery slopes?)

Cronch wrote:
Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.

This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".

We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.

You have to appreciate the recasting of "rightwing brawler who came out to start a fight and got one" became "poor innocent MAGA-head who was just handing out candy to children". Some top-tier revisionism there.