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 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think we get it, if GW put a literal turd on 40% discount you'd eat it up because they can do no wrong.

No, we just think some of you overreact. That, or you somehow think you're the arbiters of how other people are allowed to play of have fun.

Either way, it looks like we're totally making fun of you for it.

Add a combat patrol to the ork box and you have a warboss, 60 boyz, and some nobz as a core, a speed boss keeping up with koptas and a plane, a big me and his deff dred, and some Grote to do the grunt work

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think we get it, if GW put a literal turd on 40% discount you'd eat it up because they can do no wrong.

Oh no, I won’t be buying this box, don’t need it. Oh damn! now I am even doing being a fanboy wrong!

I think the controversial thing is that the Ork box isn't as good a Billy Johnson's undefeated tournament winning list and requires additions to be made decent (making it effectively worthless), whereas the AM and the sisters and marines and DG are all top tier meta-breaking armies that can be played with great success straight from the box.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Add a combat patrol to the ork box and you have a warboss, 60 boyz, and some nobz as a core, a speed boss keeping up with koptas and a plane, a big me and his deff dred, and some Grote to do the grunt work

Yeah but if you haven’t heard no one, NO ONE at all would enjoy that. And if they did they were doing it wrong because you CANNOT enjoy that! (But sounds quite good)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWBS wrote:
I think the controversial thing is that the Ork box isn't as good a Billy Johnson's undefeated tournament winning list and requires additions to be made decent (making it effectively worthless), whereas the AM and the sisters and marines and DG are all top tier meta-breaking armies that can be played with great success straight from the box.

The theme seems to matter too. Like that sister theme of some instantly and some tanks.

Andykp wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Add a combat patrol to the ork box and you have a warboss, 60 boyz, and some nobz as a core, a speed boss keeping up with koptas and a plane, a big me and his deff dred, and some Grote to do the grunt work

Yeah but if you haven’t heard no one, NO ONE at all would enjoy that. And if they did they were doing it wrong because you CANNOT enjoy that! (But sounds quite good)

If your standards are SO low that you'd enjoy it, by all means, go ahead. Just know you buying it means even worse products each year.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

If your standards are SO low that you'd enjoy it, by all means, go ahead. Just know you buying it means even worse products each year.

Does it, though? I mean, was there ever a time when battleforces had content selected by any method other than 'What plastic kits do we have available?'

This isn't a new thing, and it's no worse than it ever was. It's been the standard for at least 20 years now. Battleforces are intended to give you a bunch of plastic units at a bit of a discount. They have never been marketed as the core of a tournament force.

20 years perhaps 30 years, though the further back you go the smaller the model range was for every single army so the number of choices goes down and down.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Add a combat patrol to the ork box and you have a warboss, 60 boyz, and some nobz as a core, a speed boss keeping up with koptas and a plane, a big me and his deff dred, and some Grote to do the grunt work

Yeah but if you haven’t heard no one, NO ONE at all would enjoy that. And if they did they were doing it wrong because you CANNOT enjoy that! (But sounds quite good)

If your standards are SO low that you'd enjoy it, by all means, go ahead. Just know you buying it means even worse products each year.

Who is setting these standards?

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Add a combat patrol to the ork box and you have a warboss, 60 boyz, and some nobz as a core, a speed boss keeping up with koptas and a plane, a big me and his deff dred, and some Grote to do the grunt work

Yeah but if you haven’t heard no one, NO ONE at all would enjoy that. And if they did they were doing it wrong because you CANNOT enjoy that! (But sounds quite good)

If your standards are SO low that you'd enjoy it, by all means, go ahead. Just know you buying it means even worse products each year.

Who is setting these standards?

These guys apparently. But now because I am enjoying the hobby wrong, I am ruining it for everyone else. Sorry folks.

Andykp wrote:


The theme seems to matter too. Like that sister theme of some instantly and some tanks.

Primaris theme is pretty tight - fifty dudes and a landspeeder.

JWBS wrote:

Andykp wrote:


The theme seems to matter too. Like that sister theme of some instantly and some tanks.

Primaris theme is pretty tight - fifty dudes and a landspeeder.

Definite “intercessor” vibe going on there.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Add a combat patrol to the ork box and you have a warboss, 60 boyz, and some nobz as a core, a speed boss keeping up with koptas and a plane, a big me and his deff dred, and some Grote to do the grunt work

Yeah but if you haven’t heard no one, NO ONE at all would enjoy that. And if they did they were doing it wrong because you CANNOT enjoy that! (But sounds quite good)

If your standards are SO low that you'd enjoy it, by all means, go ahead. Just know you buying it means even worse products each year.

It's good to be aware of the competitive meta and the style of army that is more likely to win games right now and to pass that knowledge onto others. However at some point you also have to remember that this hobby is much more than just building competitive and statistically good armies. There's hobby for the sake of hobby alone; building, painting, collecting. Some people like to play narrative or build fluffy/themed/styled/fun looking lists even if they are totally terrible. Some people aren't on the same path as you through the hobby and its ok to accept that they might just like things differently from you.

For you right now you'd not advise people get the ork set from a competitive viewpoint - that's a great assessment. However its good to also step back and realise that you can tell people that, but they don't have to follow that same criteria when choosing to buy or not buy the set.

This. ^

I get that not every battleforce is ideal. Some are way more competitive straight out of the box, and others have units more experienced players would never take. Personally, I'm a fan if the box has 1) all new or new-ish models and 2) if it has decent savings, and it looks like all the boxes this year at least meet the first criteria.

I'm not sure what else the ork box could have come with. The trike boss seems like the most logical option for an HQ, since the megaboss is part of the combat patrol, which also includes 2x units of the new boyz (And GW probably wants players to buy both). The beastboss makes even less sense since there's no other beastsnaggas included, and Grukk Face-rippa isn't really that imposing of a model.

I guess it would have been more thematic to swap out the nobs or extra boyz with bikes, or something. But are these sets ever really "themed?" I think the Ironjawz one a few years back came with a gargant, before you could easily include the model in your force...

 insaniak wrote:
Does it, though? I mean, was there ever a time when battleforces had content selected by any method other than 'What plastic kits do we have available?'

That's kind of the entire impetus of the joke I made about an Eldar box at the start of this thread.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think we get it, if GW put a literal turd on 40% discount you'd eat it up because they can do no wrong.

No, we just think some of you overreact. That, or you somehow think you're the arbiters of how other people are allowed to play of have fun.

Either way, it looks like we're totally making fun of you for it.

Way to high ground my dude, don't worry if someone got that Ork box to play games with they'd be the one making fun of themselves. That's called 3 D Chess right there.

Andykp wrote:
[spoiler]

Since for ever, fluff wise Ork war bands have been made up of a warboss, his household weird boyz, nobz and household boys. This box has a warboss, a mek, a runtherd and his herd and sone nobz and boyz. And a plane to boot. If you look at the game from only a mechanics and winning point of view, no, it’s not a good army. If you are looking at it more from a narrative point of view, or even better, a big box of cool models for Christmas point of view it’s ok.

Well, for starters the Wartrike isn't a Warboss. It's a Speedboss, which is a big difference since it buffs vehicles and not infantries, while in the box there are 4 units of infantries and just a vehicle. From the game perspective 2 HQs and 3 troops isn't the best deal, other armies come with more specialised infantries and without the second HQ, which for small collections of models is more like a tax than an asset. Then we have the monopose boyz, which are a big downside for anyone who cares about the models, not the game. I for example can't stand having duplicates in my army and always avoided ending up with duplicates.

Overall the box isn't good for someone that wants to start collecting orks, as even at the lowest levels the player would get issues playing this lot. I'm definitely a casual player, I consider most skew tournament lists like a cancer, and still I wouldn't recommend this box, unless it really comes with a massive discount: 50 pounds at least, compared to the amount required if buying the kits separately. It's good for those who already have 2000-3000 points of models, or more, and can get along with 2 squads of monopose orks.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think we get it, if GW put a literal turd on 40% discount you'd eat it up because they can do no wrong.

No, we just think some of you overreact. That, or you somehow think you're the arbiters of how other people are allowed to play of have fun.

Either way, it looks like we're totally making fun of you for it.

Way to high ground my dude, don't worry if someone got that Ork box to play games with they'd be the one making fun of themselves. That's called 3 D Chess right there.

Of course, someone's gonna roll up with an army that contains a wartrike, plane, 20 boyz, shokkmek and some grots + 1330 other points of stuff and you're going guffaw and tell them they're a joke. You seem like you have a healthy gaming group.

One would almost think some of you are working for GW and are using reverse psychology to get people to buy one of those Ork battleforces.

It might even have worked if I wasn't already planning to go for the Ossiarch Bonereapers one. Much to the dismay of my wallet, I might add.

Dudeface wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think we get it, if GW put a literal turd on 40% discount you'd eat it up because they can do no wrong.

No, we just think some of you overreact. That, or you somehow think you're the arbiters of how other people are allowed to play of have fun.

Either way, it looks like we're totally making fun of you for it.

Way to high ground my dude, don't worry if someone got that Ork box to play games with they'd be the one making fun of themselves. That's called 3 D Chess right there.

Of course, someone's gonna roll up with an army that contains a wartrike, plane, 20 boyz, shokkmek and some grots + 1330 other points of stuff and you're going guffaw and tell them they're a joke. You seem like you have a healthy gaming group.

Like some here I wouldn't tell anyone to get that box unless they just really wanted all those models and had a good ork army already. Some people do get them for good starter armies and with what was beaten to death already this collection makes a very poor foothold for a number of reasons.

I don't think anyone argues you can't just want to buy it for reasons, they are just saying it's a crap force on its own. You do realize not everyone has limitless funds to drop into an army right ? So if you don't have the limitless funds you kind of want a cohesive force right off that you can easily add to. Not a hodge podge where you'll need to spend double its cost again to make it workable.

All I've seen people say is they wouldn't say it's great for starter players, no one is saying someone with an existing collection couldn't find a place for it.I'm just saying I agree with them, it's a shame of a starter force, but really we don't know how much of a savings any of these boxes will be so for all we know it'll be costed so high it'll be as bad of a value as it is a starting force and make this debate rather pointless in the end. The models look fine, outside from the grots, but it's just a poorly balanced grouping.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think we get it, if GW put a literal turd on 40% discount you'd eat it up because they can do no wrong.

No, we just think some of you overreact. That, or you somehow think you're the arbiters of how other people are allowed to play of have fun.

Either way, it looks like we're totally making fun of you for it.

Way to high ground my dude, don't worry if someone got that Ork box to play games with they'd be the one making fun of themselves. That's called 3 D Chess right there.

Of course, someone's gonna roll up with an army that contains a wartrike, plane, 20 boyz, shokkmek and some grots + 1330 other points of stuff and you're going guffaw and tell them they're a joke. You seem like you have a healthy gaming group.

Like some here I wouldn't tell anyone to get that box unless they just really wanted all those models and had a good ork army already. Some people do get them for good starter armies and with what was beaten to death already this collection makes a very poor foothold for a number of reasons.

I don't think anyone argues you can't just want to buy it for reasons, they are just saying it's a crap force on its own. You do realize not everyone has limitless funds to drop into an army right ? So if you don't have the limitless funds you kind of want a cohesive force right off that you can easily add to. Not a hodge podge where you'll need to spend double its cost again to make it workable.

All I've seen people say is they wouldn't say it's great for starter players, no one is saying someone with an existing collection couldn't find a place for it.I'm just saying I agree with them, it's a shame of a starter force, but really we don't know how much of a savings any of these boxes will be so for all we know it'll be costed so high it'll be as bad of a value as it is a starting force and make this debate rather pointless in the end. The models look fine, outside from the grots, but it's just a poorly balanced grouping.

What people have said is, this box is crap and and we are all doing the hobby wrong and none of us know anything about the game or ORKS at all. I am not trying to hoodwink anyone into buying it so that they can be laughed at by gamers who can hobby better than me. I am just saying this box isn’t that bad if you aren’t arsed about winning as much as you are about having a nice looking new pile of cool models. You might not think people are arguing that they can’t but this because for any reason but that is exactly what they are doing. And being pretty unpleasant about it too.

Yes, we can all agree a 40% discount is cool if you don't care what you're buying.

Glad you can see a use for box at least but your first sentence is the problem I have with other commenters on here. The fact it has different rules and buffs etc on the table top is irrelevant. It’s a warboss on a trike in the fluff. It’s a warboss. It’s only when it gets on the table it becomes a sped boss with rules that do x y or a. Story wise, he is the boss, but these that are saying we are doing it wrong can only see what he does on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, we can all agree a 40% discount is cool if you don't care what you're buying.

Just accept some people care about different things than you. Life will be easier all round.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Add a combat patrol to the ork box and you have a warboss, 60 boyz, and some nobz as a core, a speed boss keeping up with koptas and a plane, a big me and his deff dred, and some Grote to do the grunt work

Yeah but if you haven’t heard no one, NO ONE at all would enjoy that. And if they did they were doing it wrong because you CANNOT enjoy that! (But sounds quite good)

If your standards are SO low that you'd enjoy it, by all means, go ahead. Just know you buying it means even worse products each year.

Is your idea about worse products that GW doesn't give you a top tier ITC list in each Battleforce? Because that's how you are coming off as.

If people want the box they'll buy the box. If they don't want it they won't buy the box. In the end it will still be voting with people's wallets. Telling someone who wants it is somehow wrong because of your own subjective opinion on how to enjoy the game is just weird. Also makes it sounds that you don't treat Warhammer as a hobby, but as something altogether more stressful.

I think the main "buyer beware" I'd offer about the box is that the boyz are the monopose/fixed fittings from the Combat Patrol box, which is a much fairer criticism than it not being top meta ITC FLG NOVA ADEPTICON INSERT NAME list. Otherwise, if someone wants the Battleforce they should just treat themselves to some grey plastic.

 Cruxeh wrote:
One would almost think some of you are working for GW and are using reverse psychology to get people to buy one of those Ork battleforces.

It might even have worked if I wasn't already planning to go for the Ossiarch Bonereapers one. Much to the dismay of my wallet, I might add.

See I'm just hoping all the hyper focus on it means that everyone forgets about the other sets for a few months so I can grab the ones I want

 Overread wrote:

 Cruxeh wrote:
One would almost think some of you are working for GW and are using reverse psychology to get people to buy one of those Ork battleforces.

It might even have worked if I wasn't already planning to go for the Ossiarch Bonereapers one. Much to the dismay of my wallet, I might add.

See I'm just hoping all the hyper focus on it means that everyone forgets about the other sets for a few months so I can grab the ones I want

I am not sure I want any of them. I do not need more intercessors, the ad mech one maybe?? Was hoping the sisters one would inspire me to start a new army but it’s a bit lacking in models for me. As for the controversial ORKS one, I do not need more ORKS. If I hadn’t already got the combat patrol box I would consider it.

For me that’s the only issue with the ok box, if they had put the old boyz in people could get it and add the combat patrol to it next. Now I don’t mind monopose too much but that’s a lot to have 4 of the same squad. But I guess they wanted the new “sexy” models in there to help it sell.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, we can all agree a 40% discount is cool if you don't care what you're buying.

Looks like a good threshold but a bit too ambitious in the case of battleforces.
I guess that 30% discount is the max.

Andykp wrote:
[spoiler]Glad you can see a use for box at least but your first sentence is the problem I have with other commenters on here. The fact it has different rules and buffs etc on the table top is irrelevant. It’s a warboss on a trike in the fluff. It’s a warboss. It’s only when it gets on the table it becomes a sped boss with rules that do x y or a. Story wise, he is the boss, but these that are saying we are doing it wrong can only see what he does on the table.

Out of curiosity, if there was a hypothetical Marine box with a core of Scouts, a flyer and a Terminator Captain, and I were in the market for an expansion of my 10th company army, would you assert that in the fluff a Space Marine Captain is a Space Marine Captain amd there is no narrative problem with the Captain of 1st company leading 10th company?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, we can all agree a 40% discount is cool if you don't care what you're buying.

Looks like a good threshold but a bit too ambitious in the case of battleforces.
I guess that 30% discount is the max.

I only checked Sisters (and don't recall the numbers posted earlier in the thread) because of my interest in the box, but that box is just over 230€ when bought individually. 30% would bring it down to just over 160€. 40% would be closer to the 130€ the Christmas boxes were two or three years ago when last I paid attention.

I could see it go either way. I wouldn't put a 160€ price tag beyond 2021 GW, but I really hope the inevitable price increase we'll see on them won't be that harsh. At 140€ they would match a price tag GW has sold some things at lately and still preserve the 40% discount.

Generally, though, I can't agree on the part about 40% discount being too ambitious for Christmas boxes. They've always been a pretty decent deal with that kind of discount or even more. Getting a significantly lower discount would actually be a departure from a longstanding strategy.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, we can all agree a 40% discount is cool if you don't care what you're buying.

Looks like a good threshold but a bit too ambitious in the case of battleforces.
I guess that 30% discount is the max.

Lets hope independents can get it too on their stores so we potentially can have a better deal.

I'm looking forward to the Spesh murine box, the BA community are telling me not to..because not meta
But i like the look of it & fluff/personal choice over curbstomping lists anyday.. OH and something about the "Failspeeder" draw's me towards it.
So yeah i have my fingers crossed i can land a box in time for christmas.