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I kinda like it when people take loads of models, my favorite game of 40k was when I ran green tide against a valhallan conscript list.
And that whole bolt rifle thing, that’s an intentional thing for green tide. In the 4th dex for orks it recommends green tide explicitly to harass marine players who have less shots than you do bodies.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I kinda like it when people take loads of models, my favorite game of 40k was when I ran green tide against a valhallan conscript list.
And that whole bolt rifle thing, that’s an intentional thing for green tide. In the 4th dex for orks it recommends green tide explicitly to harass marine players who have less shots than you do bodies.

+1, Hordes are fun things to play against, I find.

And @Daed, I'm still real concerned about the data you posted in that chart.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What are the numbers on this, deaths due to the weapon? How many shots to kill X number? Obviously not, but it isn't easy to infer the units on these numbers.

Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.

But each line also appears to use BS too? I can only reach 16.7 lasgun wounds against T3 5+ if I calculate .5 to hit as well. Irritating chart, as BS changes. Bolt Rifles are on BS 3+ . Which BS is the Heavy Bolter using, for example?

In fact the Heavy Bolter math appears to be wrong? Against T3 5+ I get 27.6 with a BS 4+, and 36.8 against BS 3+. Chart has it at 44.4?

In fact Assault Cannon appears wrong as well. .666 x . 83 x .83 (x100) = 45.8, not 55.5

Bolt Rifle scores the same number of wounds regardless of Light Cover against a 6+ save? That looks a lil sus.

What the feth do the colors even mean?

Daed, your chart sucks!!!!

No! Your...chart... sucks!

Colors are just gradient highlights for the row to show best to worst.

BS is in there, because brain.

Here's a fixed one. I quit coffee cold turkey, so I blame that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I quit coffee cold turkey, so I blame that.

Oooh that's a tough one. I did that about a month ago. Forgiven.

Calculating without BS gives a more clear picture of durability, and can be used to get a sense of similar weapons held in different hands. But if you're gonna leave it in the calculation, do label it. A Heavy Bolter is weilded by both BS 3+ and 4+ hands.

More of an opinion, either drop or label the meaning of the colors.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I quit coffee cold turkey, so I blame that.

Oooh that's a tough one. I did that about a month ago. Forgiven.

Calculating without BS gives a more clear picture of durability, and can be used to get a sense of similar weapons held in different hands. But if you're gonna leave it in the calculation, do label it. A Heavy Bolter is weilded by both BS 3+ and 4+ hands.

More of an opinion, either drop or label the meaning of the colors.

Yea I just left it in, because the only stuff that matters are the outcomes relative to each other regardless of what's firing it. So it can go, but I'm lazy right now.

Thanks for taking the time to guy check me and I appreciate the feedback.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sort of. I just want to avoid games where people take 180 models.

500-1k point games can be quite fun, I find. Additional, playing powerlevel tends to discourage hordes (I've noticed) since elites get their weapon upgrades for free but extra models cost PL.

Oh who am I kidding, 2k matched is the Gold Standard™.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to guy check me. . .

Is that like a kilt check?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sort of. I just want to avoid games where people take 180 models.

500-1k point games can be quite fun, I find. Additional, playing powerlevel tends to discourage hordes (I've noticed) since elites get their weapon upgrades for free but extra models cost PL.

Oh who am I kidding, 2k matched is the Gold Standard™.

Power level is just horrible for some factions. I played a crusade against a guard friend with my orks, that guy probably had hundreds of points of wargear all for free. All I got was a zoggin rokkit that hits on 6’s if I move.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sort of. I just want to avoid games where people take 180 models.

500-1k point games can be quite fun, I find. Additional, playing powerlevel tends to discourage hordes (I've noticed) since elites get their weapon upgrades for free but extra models cost PL.

Oh who am I kidding, 2k matched is the Gold Standard™.

Power level is just horrible for some factions. I played a crusade against a guard friend with my orks, that guy probably had hundreds of points of wargear all for free. All I got was a zoggin rokkit that hits on 6’s if I move.

Interesting, I tend to find one should enforce WYSIWYG with PL, and play some games as points (also enforcing WYSIWYG). That's informal in these parts, but typically results in models having sane wargear (for the points games) even in the PL games


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have also found that most PL is balanced around those extra points. My Russ list is 108 PL but around 1900 pts

Orks just don’t get a lot of wargear value, not unless you’re spamming deff dreads, nobz, and meganobz. Everything else gets a very small selection, which is kinda sad.

They just need to do something about the morale issue and boyz are fine at their current points.

Honestly not sure why they took breaking heads off the nobs and made it a strat, big mistake and misplay.

Go back to it being standard on all nobz. If you fail morale, the nob kills D3 boyz in addition to the one that ran.

ccs wrote:

Ooh, so buy 9 orks & get the 10th free.
Yes, that will solve the problem & encourage the return of hordes of Boyz to the table.....

Oh, wait. It won't. All you'll have are slightly cheaper Boyz not being used.

Just play them like Guard? Lots of 10 man squads, which makes morale a much smaller issue.

If they were 8 points each. You could take a brigade with 12 boy squads for 960 points. Then take things like Kommandos, Mek Guns, etc to fill out the brigade. Or just go triple battalion, some Ork players were doing triple outriders for the buggies. That's 18 boy squads for 1440.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

Power level is just horrible for some factions. I played a crusade against a guard friend with my orks, that guy probably had hundreds of points of wargear all for free. All I got was a zoggin rokkit that hits on 6’s if I move.

It's not that bad each PL is approximately 20 points. A Leman Russ is 10 power level, so roughly 200 points. A standard Leman Russ in points is 160. It's only really bad if they take literally every single upgrade and every single vehicle upgrade.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Just give orks old mob rule and ‘ere we go, they were fine and I honestly have no idea why they were nerfed.

This wouldn't be a bad solution. My guess as to the reason behind the nerf was because so many Marine players were frothing at the mouth at the idea of orkz being T5. You had people on here losing their minds screaming orkz were going to be the most OP army of the edition because boyz were so competitive in 8th. BTW, in 8th, boys were only competitive when spammed with ghaz and only as a "Hold objectives" army rather than a competitive army. We just took more bodies than could be easily killed.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They just need to do something about the morale issue and boyz are fine at their current points.
Honestly not sure why they took breaking heads off the nobs and made it a strat, big mistake and misplay.
Go back to it being standard on all nobz. If you fail morale, the nob kills D3 boyz in addition to the one that ran.

Problem with that is you are losing effectively 3 boyz per turn to morale as opposed to 3-5 depending on mob size.

If you run multiple blobs of boyz (lets say 5 units of 20) than this would end up costing you on average 15 boyz a turn or 135pts dead to Morale. You can not have an army effectively lose 5-10% of its army every turn to a mechanic that nobody else is concerned with.

Jarms48 wrote:

Just play them like Guard? Lots of 10 man squads, which makes morale a much smaller issue.
If they were 8 points each. You could take a brigade with 12 boy squads for 960 points. Then take things like Kommandos, Mek Guns, etc to fill out the brigade. Or just go triple battalion, some Ork players were doing triple outriders for the buggies. That's 18 boy squads for 1440.

Guardsmen are taken because they are incredibly cheap and easily buffed to double their firepower or movement with relative ease from a 35pt character. Boyz on the other hand are extremely limited in their buffs, they are incredibly slow, and they have no ranged threat to speak of. Shootas are a complete joke, sticking a 1 per 10 special/heavy weapon on a unit doesn't fix that problem either. So yeah, you could take 12-18 MSU Boyz squads but the game would fundamentally end turn 3 when the orkz finally reached combat just to find out not enough lived to pose a credible threat to the enemy.

A Unit of Trukkboyz is only a competitive choice (and i'm lonely in the belief that they are competitive) because they have a massive turn 1 threat range (max 38, average 30). But even then they are still just boyz. 9 Trukk boyz and a double Choppa nob end up dealing 5.6ish dmg to a Marine unit. Not bad for a 90pt unit, except that with the trukk its 160pts.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Interesting, I tend to find one should enforce WYSIWYG with PL, and play some games as points (also enforcing WYSIWYG). That's informal in these parts, but typically results in models having sane wargear (for the points games) even in the PL games

For once, I fully agree with you. PL works for when people are bringing the models they own and play them exactly as they are built. And in that case it works great for most parts. The only thing we have house-ruled for our crusades is that you buy models on a model-by-model basis, people didn't want to pay for a full 5 extra marines for bringing their god's numbers.

If people are optimizing to get the most out of PL, be it by proxy/count-as, TTS or actually building a ton of new models, it completely falls apart for some armies. When you play two "modern" armies (primaris, ad mech, harleqins, death guard) against each other, you rarely notice the difference. They have next to no wargear choices anyways. But for books who have armories of ranged weapons, the gap can be massive.

SemperMortis wrote:


A Unit of Trukkboyz is only a competitive choice (and i'm lonely in the belief that they are competitive) because they have a massive turn 1 threat range (max 38, average 30). But even then they are still just boyz. 9 Trukk boyz and a double Choppa nob end up dealing 5.6ish dmg to a Marine unit. Not bad for a 90pt unit, except that with the trukk its 160pts.

They're good tarpitters since they can't deal a significant amount of damage, but overall a pretty strong choice. I bring two squads in my vehicles based lists everytime.

I'd expect good tarpitters to actually prevent units from fighting themselves out of their grasp, but I wouldn't really attribute that ability to boyz. Unless you charged GEQ, they tend to be dead by your next turn.

I was thinking about shooty units with no significant melee abilities, that can't shoot if they fall back.

Some armies don't have tons of bodies to screen them and with the massive threat range it can be done.

Removing a few annoying models, or preventing them from firing for one turn is enough for that role IMHO. Next turn trukk boyz will probably be dead but will also draw the attention away from other units.

Charging GEQs or other cheap chaff is quite useless.

If I could make one change it would be to be able to take units of 5. If I could make a big change, I would love to see the old warband organisation of mixed clans within one army, without having to take extra detachments.

 Blackie wrote:
I was thinking about shooty units with no significant melee abilities, that can't shoot if they fall back.

Some armies don't have tons of bodies to screen them and with the massive threat range it can be done.

Removing a few annoying models, or preventing them from firing for one turn is enough for that role IMHO. Next turn trukk boyz will probably be dead but will also draw the attention away from other units.

Charging GEQs or other cheap chaff is quite useless.

That's not "being good at tarpitting" though, that's just being a unit. In your post you could replace "boyz" for almost every single unit orks can field and it would remain true.

Jarms48 wrote:
Boys and Beast Snagga Boys could probably go down 1 point per model. Gretchin could probably go back to a 6+ save again, or buff their support characters.

Kommandos probably need to go up by minimum 2, possibly 4, they're far too good for their cost.

For players who do not know how to screen, or can't be bothered to build an army with screens, perhaps. But screening ain't so hard so perhaps check a few youtube videos, then face kommandos, and see if you still want to nerf them. They are fine as they are IMHO.

More to the topic, I disagree with one of the posters here who said even at 7 ppm we would see only msu boyz. I for one would try a 90 goff boyz + 45 blood axe kommando list right away. 660 with PKs and 510 for fully kitted kommandos seems rather good to me. Add in 2*10 trukboyz for 280 and you have a neat little 1450 point package. Problem is GW doesn't want to see that package on the TT, because that is 135 models, and they clearly decided it wasn't good for the game they have in mind. So IMHO boyz maybe in 10th ed.

UNLESS... The comparison with Imp guard squads makes me think that if we could move move move our boyz turn 1 then it would all work out, even at 9 PPM ? Would have to be blood axe boyz though if copying imp guard squads I guess (and we obvioulsy want Goff boyz don't we)

Perhaps for 9th we can ask santa for cheaper flash gitz, lootas, etc. That would really be what I want

 addnid wrote:

For players who do not know how to screen, or can't be bothered to build an army with screens, perhaps. But screening ain't so hard so perhaps check a few youtube videos, then face kommandos, and see if you still want to nerf them. They are fine as they are IMHO.

More to the topic, I disagree with one of the posters here who said even at 7 ppm we would see only msu boyz. I for one would try a 90 goff boyz + 45 blood axe kommando list right away. 660 with PKs and 510 for fully kitted kommandos seems rather good to me. Add in 2*10 trukboyz for 280 and you have a neat little 1450 point package. Problem is GW doesn't want to see that package on the TT, because that is 135 models, and they clearly decided it wasn't good for the game they have in mind. So IMHO boyz maybe in 10th ed.

UNLESS... The comparison with Imp guard squads makes me think that if we could move move move our boyz turn 1 then it would all work out, even at 9 PPM ? Would have to be blood axe boyz though if copying imp guard squads I guess (and we obvioulsy want Goff boyz don't we)

Perhaps for 9th we can ask santa for cheaper flash gitz, lootas, etc. That would really be what I want

Agree with you about Kommandos entirely. However, on 7ppm Boyz...nope I wouldn't take them still. Foot sloggin 90 boyz forward with morale issues is a recipe for disaster. Turn 1 you have almost no chance of a charge even if you rolled a 6' advance. That means your opponent at the very least has 1 full turn to blast the hell out of you. reducing each mob by 6 means you likely fail morale in all 3, and unless you spend 4CP you will then lose 15 more boyz to morale. So you end up losing half an entire mob to 1st turn morale, while your opponent only killed 18. Turn 2 if they get 1 more round of shooting its GG. Kill another 6 in each mob and they are now down to 13 models each, fail morale and 4-5 more run away bringing you down to about 8 boyz left or 24 in total. Thats just 2 rounds of shooting. And to kill 6 boyz isn't hard.

The only way that list works is if your opponent designates too much fire power to the Kommandos.

I personally would just like boyz to go to 8ppm and for old mob rule to be brought back. Even then they wouldn't be all that competitive, but they at least would stand a chance.

At 8 with mob rule would be pretty bad still. Without perma adv/charge and no 5++, and no reliable easy charge da jumping, I think mob rule with boyz at 6 points would be fair.

SemperMortis wrote:


Agree with you about Kommandos entirely. However, on 7ppm Boyz...nope I wouldn't take them still. Foot sloggin 90 boyz forward with morale issues is a recipe for disaster. Turn 1 you have almost no chance of a charge even if you rolled a 6' advance. That means your opponent at the very least has 1 full turn to blast the hell out of you. reducing each mob by 6 means you likely fail morale in all 3, and unless you spend 4CP you will then lose 15 more boyz to morale. So you end up losing half an entire mob to 1st turn morale, while your opponent only killed 18. Turn 2 if they get 1 more round of shooting its GG. Kill another 6 in each mob and they are now down to 13 models each, fail morale and 4-5 more run away bringing you down to about 8 boyz left or 24 in total. Thats just 2 rounds of shooting. And to kill 6 boyz isn't hard.

The only way that list works is if your opponent designates too much fire power to the Kommandos.

I personally would just like boyz to go to 8ppm and for old mob rule to be brought back. Even then they wouldn't be all that competitive, but they at least would stand a chance.

Ork boys weren't taken because there were bad, it's just the other options are just sooo good. And what you're asking for is boyz to be invincible crossing a battlefield in 9th (low casualties and almost immune to morale).

Foot slogging almost anything in 9th is a bad idea, from marines, to guard, to even terminators. Unless the unit is built for durability (like DG) then against any shooting army footsloggers are going to get pummeled. That's why Orks take buggies, bikes, trukks, etc., the units to get across the board quickly and make your opponent focus on them. Then we need some stuff in the backfield & midfield to hold objectives, and your HS/Elites to continue to whittle down your enemy.

If you do take 90 boys and footslog them across the battlefield, then you take them in 30-boyz blobs & use the strat (that's what it is for). then your opponent has the choice of dealing with the 10 kommandos in their face or the 30-boys blob that's about to hit them.

brainpsyk wrote:

Ork boys weren't taken because there were bad, it's just the other options are just sooo good. And what you're asking for is boyz to be invincible crossing a battlefield in 9th (low casualties and almost immune to morale).

Foot slogging almost anything in 9th is a bad idea, from marines, to guard, to even terminators. Unless the unit is built for durability (like DG) then against any shooting army footsloggers are going to get pummeled. That's why Orks take buggies, bikes, trukks, etc., the units to get across the board quickly and make your opponent focus on them. Then we need some stuff in the backfield & midfield to hold objectives, and your HS/Elites to continue to whittle down your enemy.

If you do take 90 boys and footslog them across the battlefield, then you take them in 30-boyz blobs & use the strat (that's what it is for). then your opponent has the choice of dealing with the 10 kommandos in their face or the 30-boys blob that's about to hit them.

In competitive lists almost nobody is even taking Troops. Grots are absolute garbage at 5ppm and have worse morale than boyz and Boyz are garbage at 9ppm with morale issues. There aren't any "better" choices in the entire Troops choice slot. The option is A: Take bad unit that has no chance of making its points back, nor is it durable enough to hold objectives Or B: spend CP on detachments so you don't need troops.

So the "better" option is not taking ANY troops. And false, they aren't taken specifically because THEY SUCK. Nobody is asking for Boyz to be invincible crossing the battlefield, but at the moment Orkz are about the only faction that has to care about Morale. In 8th you could foot slog across the board because we had a good version of Mob Rule, a 5++ invuln from a KFF for relatively cheap and we had a 6+++ FNP from a painboy for cheap. Now? They are both bad options and boyz have massive morale issues. As far as "use the strat thats what it is for" ...no. 2CP to kill D3 of your boyz instead of 0 CP and kill 1 +1/6th of your boyz. That means you end up spending 2CP to save 2-3 boyz or 18-27pts...that isn't worth it in the slightest. Not to mention there isn't a reason to take them in blobs anymore since our buffs all got nerfed heavily. That is what this post is about, the fact that boyz suck right now and we miss them on the battlefield

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What are the numbers on this, deaths due to the weapon? How many shots to kill X number? Obviously not, but it isn't easy to infer the units on these numbers.

Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.

But each line also appears to use BS too? I can only reach 16.7 lasgun wounds against T3 5+ if I calculate .5 to hit as well. Irritating chart, as BS changes. Bolt Rifles are on BS 3+ . Which BS is the Heavy Bolter using, for example?

In fact the Heavy Bolter math appears to be wrong? Against T3 5+ I get 27.6 with a BS 4+, and 36.8 against BS 3+. Chart has it at 44.4?

In fact Assault Cannon appears wrong as well. .666 x . 83 x .83 (x100) = 45.8, not 55.5

Bolt Rifle scores the same number of wounds regardless of Light Cover against a 6+ save? That looks a lil sus.

What the feth do the colors even mean?

Daed, your chart sucks!!!!

No! Your...chart... sucks!

Colors are just gradient highlights for the row to show best to worst.

BS is in there, because brain.

Here's a fixed one. I quit coffee cold turkey, so I blame that.

The chart really isn't flattering if you start factoring in other aspects of the models being depicted. Orks get 11 wounds for 90 points and marines 10 per 90. Looks pretty good for the orks stacking buffs, but for morale, the marines count every 2 wounds as -1 which means after taking hits thwyre doing better. Then you have to factor in the other costs. A mek with KFF on the cheap runs 85 points and the painboy is another 70 which means 155 points minimum and an HQ and Elite slot ontop of the squad costs. If we distribute that over several squads, then great, but the boys can't all poke into the same 6" circle of board to get a FNP. Realistically you'll get 2-3 squads coverage for a turn or two so well call it an extra 50-75 points onto of the squad cost. Split the difference and you're paying almost 150 points to be as tough as 90 points of marines against the shots, worse in the morale and we haven't even touched the melee/firepower of the squads.

As troops primary role is hold a point, this makes them very poor as they are flimsy for the cost and their losses multiply easily making them even worse points per wound. Boyz need to drop 1 point at minimum and 2 is really ideal if they're going to stick with the morale.

 Surtur wrote:

The chart really isn't flattering if you start factoring in other aspects of the models being depicted. Orks get 11 wounds for 90 points and marines 10 per 90. Looks pretty good for the orks stacking buffs, but for morale, the marines count every 2 wounds as -1 which means after taking hits thwyre doing better. Then you have to factor in the other costs. A mek with KFF on the cheap runs 85 points and the painboy is another 70 which means 155 points minimum and an HQ and Elite slot ontop of the squad costs. If we distribute that over several squads, then great, but the boys can't all poke into the same 6" circle of board to get a FNP. Realistically you'll get 2-3 squads coverage for a turn or two so well call it an extra 50-75 points onto of the squad cost. Split the difference and you're paying almost 150 points to be as tough as 90 points of marines against the shots, worse in the morale and we haven't even touched the melee/firepower of the squads.

As troops primary role is hold a point, this makes them very poor as they are flimsy for the cost and their losses multiply easily making them even worse points per wound. Boyz need to drop 1 point at minimum and 2 is really ideal if they're going to stick with the morale.

It is point agnostic, because people are talking about lower points or other tweaks, which makes this hazy. And then you have to factor in how strong D2 against marines, which the Heavy Bolters demonstrates.

It's a very complex picture that isn't easy to demonstrate through math alone. High AP is wasted on boyz as are mortal wounds in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Agree with you about Kommandos entirely. However, on 7ppm Boyz...nope I wouldn't take them still. Foot sloggin 90 boyz forward with morale issues is a recipe for disaster. Turn 1 you have almost no chance of a charge even if you rolled a 6' advance. That means your opponent at the very least has 1 full turn to blast the hell out of you. reducing each mob by 6 means you likely fail morale in all 3, and unless you spend 4CP you will then lose 15 more boyz to morale. So you end up losing half an entire mob to 1st turn morale, while your opponent only killed 18. Turn 2 if they get 1 more round of shooting its GG. Kill another 6 in each mob and they are now down to 13 models each, fail morale and 4-5 more run away bringing you down to about 8 boyz left or 24 in total. Thats just 2 rounds of shooting. And to kill 6 boyz isn't hard.

The only way that list works is if your opponent designates too much fire power to the Kommandos.

I personally would just like boyz to go to 8ppm and for old mob rule to be brought back. Even then they wouldn't be all that competitive, but they at least would stand a chance.

This is the kind of theory hammer that I think isn't realistic.

Here's a top placing Sisters list ( using new FAQ ):



There is hardly any shooting capable of downing enough boyz to be effective.

DE lists? No chance.

Here's a marine list:



The Volcons can affect two units at most. A marine list with two Plasma Redemptors and two Volcons will kill a handful more and is capable of doing what you say if they just ignore making their units vulnerable and the boyz are tossed with abandon.

Ork players can still be use Da Jump, but to reposition into low threat lanes for a later move to threaten more strongly.

Both the chance to cast Da Jump as well as the chance to succeed a charge after jumping has gone down. It is just too unreliable to plan around now, making it a non-option for someone who is trying to win an event.

 Jidmah wrote:

PL works for when people are bringing the models they own and play them exactly as they are built. And in that case it works great for most parts.

If people are optimizing to get the most out of PL, be it by proxy/count-as, TTS or actually building a ton of new models, it completely falls apart for some armies.

Man it'd be a real shame if when guard platoons were still a thing I ran max special weapon squads, max heavy weapons, maxed out options on vets and command squads...

Yeah when I play my guard using power level it kind of tips the scale despite WYSIWYG.

Edit: I think I have.... 18 flamers, 15 melta, 9 plasma, some heavy flamers, maybe 6 lascannon HWS and 3 autocannon, full upgrades on Russes...

To be fair, whatever you were running back then is probably horribly inefficient today anyways

For guard, the biggest "issue" is being able to slap the entire vehicle upgrade list and free lascannons/multi-meltas on everything. A dozen or so hunter-killer missiles do make a difference.

Honestly?
Probably go for Orkboy, starting out with a shoota at 7ppm
Choppa and Slugga +1ppm

Change the general SV for orkboys to 5+.
Add an option to upgrade to ard boyzs for 1 ppm.