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Apocalypse81 wrote:
Nope. Been playing Orks for 25 years. Im damn glad to have a play option that doesn't involve huge blobs of boys.
I still play them once in a while, but im very happy that Orks are Toys over Boys at the moment.
The huge boys lists were boring and stale.

Both are extremes. Some players enjoy boyz and green tide though. It would be nice if they were at least competitive, as it stands they were only competitive in 8th as a counter-meta build. Easy to win with 180 boyz when your opponent only brought Plasma/melta

I enjoy Toyz as much as the next Ork players, I just would like to actually take troops choices and have them serve a purpose.

Yeah, pretty much. I don't want the extremes either. Just having a troops choice that doesn't feel like dead weight without taking Trukk Boyz or a tax would be nice.

SemperMortis wrote:

Apocalypse81 wrote:
Nope. Been playing Orks for 25 years. Im damn glad to have a play option that doesn't involve huge blobs of boys.
I still play them once in a while, but im very happy that Orks are Toys over Boys at the moment.
The huge boys lists were boring and stale.

Both are extremes. Some players enjoy boyz and green tide though. It would be nice if they were at least competitive, as it stands they were only competitive in 8th as a counter-meta build. Easy to win with 180 boyz when your opponent only brought Plasma/melta

I enjoy Toyz as much as the next Ork players, I just would like to actually take troops choices and have them serve a purpose.

Oh, I get it, I'm not hating on the style, its been a classic thing in 40k, but I've been ready to move on for a while.
As is, point for point they don't work. And with their absolutely terrible morale, and boys being still 1w, I don't know how you fix it. Its so easy knock some off and then let Morale destroy their lines.

I played against a Boyz heavy list last weekend with my Black Templars. He had three 30 mans. In the second round I charged one squad on a center board objective with 14 Primaris Crusaders with Helbrecht behind them giving his aura of +1 str, while grimaldus gave them a second vow (Suffer not the unclean to live- 6's auto wound)for one turn with Fervent Acclamation and then Psalm of Remorseless Persecution (6's cause mortals in addition) by using Bombastic Delivery.

I cut down 11 orks with TERRIBLE rolls with the crusaders. He lost 5 more to Helbrecht., and then 3 more ran.

He killed 2 crusaders fighting back.

I Collapsed his other flank with a second squad of Crusaders and a Chaplain on bike.

By the end of turn 3 he had lost well over 60 boys as my bladeguard and redemptors joined in, so he had no obsec on any objectives in the center, and held two in his zone. I maxed out Primaries early in turn 4, while maxing out Engage and ROD. Then my Chaplain took down Ghaz because my opponent misunderstood Tannhausers bones (any damage, no matter how high is reduced to one, where he misunderstood it as damage reduced by one).

I know thats a stupid long post, but it just demonstrates how easily they fall apart for 5 turns, my opponent never crossed center board with anything but a Burnan Bomba. Honestly, the only way I can see them being workable is if GW gave them back great green tide, and even then he couldn't have moved me off objectives, and I would have just broken his line a second Time. At the end, he had 12 boys left on an objective in his end, a rukkatrukk on the other, a boss bunka, and ten Lootas, and I never really made a push into his zone because it was already feel bad. I didnt have to screen anything. This guy is a very good Ork player. He beat me in an RTT with his Army of Renown right after the codex dropped, and we practice for tournaments together.

He wants to try 6×30 squads sometimes soon, as well as 6×20 Beast Snagga in a Snakebite list because hes determined to keep trying. Which is fine, because I have a Crusaders deathball I want to try. 3 squads of 14 crusaders, each backed with a Redemptors loaded with gattling guns, one with Helbrecht, one with Grimaldus, and one with Chaplain on Bike. Filling it out to 1996pts are 2x6 Vanguard Veteran squads in deep strike. I'll call it the Black Wall.

I really can't wait to try that against the horde of green beasts! Again, sorry for the rambling thoughts of an old guy who often plays against Orks (and plays Orks, but right now im not competing with them).

Apocalypse81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Apocalypse81 wrote:
Nope. Been playing Orks for 25 years. Im damn glad to have a play option that doesn't involve huge blobs of boys.
I still play them once in a while, but im very happy that Orks are Toys over Boys at the moment.
The huge boys lists were boring and stale.

Both are extremes. Some players enjoy boyz and green tide though. It would be nice if they were at least competitive, as it stands they were only competitive in 8th as a counter-meta build. Easy to win with 180 boyz when your opponent only brought Plasma/melta

I enjoy Toyz as much as the next Ork players, I just would like to actually take troops choices and have them serve a purpose.

Oh, I get it, I'm not hating on the style, its been a classic thing in 40k, but I've been ready to move on for a while.
As is, point for point they don't work. And with their absolutely terrible morale, and boys being still 1w, I don't know how you fix it. Its so easy knock some off and then let Morale destroy their lines.

They need better support through other units or strats, and a damage buff. Possible ideas I had that could address those issues are below.

1) An FAQ to give nobs/Warbosses the old Breakin Ead's to help with the morale issue

2) Add a bonus to the WAAAGH! rule that lets CORE units be immune to morale while the WAAAGH is in effect.

3) Give the painboy a reason to exist by giving him a strat to revive 2d3 boys a turn or just making it part of his datasheet

4) Buff powerklaws so they can do more than chip away at things like dreadnoughts, make it 1+d3 or just flat 3.

5) Give boys +1 to wound if 20+ boys remain in the unit. Idea for this came from Helsreach where the orks were no match in small numbers but were able to wound the templars when they had overwhelming numbers.

The last one is probably too strong to give to a troops unit, but giving orks one or more of these changes could help.

 DrGiggles wrote:
They need better support through other units or strats, and a damage buff. Possible ideas I had that could address those issues are below.

1) An FAQ to give nobs/Warbosses the old Breakin Ead's to help with the morale issue

Cool idea. It would also give nobz a niche. something which they are currently lacking.
For warbosses, you could also slap a +1 LD aura on them. For the first time ever, this is something people actually want.

2) Add a bonus to the WAAAGH! rule that lets CORE units be immune to morale while the WAAAGH is in effect.

Doesn't even have to be CORE, you could just go for MOBZ.

3) Give the painboy a reason to exist by giving him a strat to revive 2d3 boys a turn or just making it part of his datasheet

That's a bit too powerful. Giving it the same revive ability as many other armies have would already be great.

4) Buff powerklaws so they can do more than chip away at things like dreadnoughts, make it 1+d3 or just flat 3.

Nah, PKs are fine. If you need to punch a hole through a -1 damage vehicle, that's what tankbusta bombs are for.

5) Give boys +1 to wound if 20+ boys remain in the unit. Idea for this came from Helsreach where the orks were no match in small numbers but were able to wound the templars when they had overwhelming numbers.

It's a good thing those horde buffs went away, and re-introducing them would not be a good thing. Instead, you could just give them a "green tide" rule that extends engagement range to 3", so you can actually get all those attacks of big mob to bear. Neither would fix the issues that small units are having though.
+1 wound also has this ridiculous side-effect that they suddenly become good at grinding down units which they normally wouldn't be able to touch. Boyz, don't need to be able to kill everything to become decent again, being able to kill something would be nice though. Regularly bouncing of 5 intercessors or immortals is not a place where boyz should be, they should totally mulch basic infantry in combat.

 DrGiggles wrote:

They need better support through other units or strats, and a damage buff. Possible ideas I had that could address those issues are below.
1) An FAQ to give nobs/Warbosses the old Breakin Ead's to help with the morale issue
2) Add a bonus to the WAAAGH! rule that lets CORE units be immune to morale while the WAAAGH is in effect.
3) Give the painboy a reason to exist by giving him a strat to revive 2d3 boys a turn or just making it part of his datasheet
4) Buff powerklaws so they can do more than chip away at things like dreadnoughts, make it 1+d3 or just flat 3.
5) Give boys +1 to wound if 20+ boys remain in the unit. Idea for this came from Helsreach where the orks were no match in small numbers but were able to wound the templars when they had overwhelming numbers.
The last one is probably too strong to give to a troops unit, but giving orks one or more of these changes could help.

1 is functionally useless. On a mob of 30 if I lose 6 boyz and fail morale I statistically lose 1 more to morale and then 4 more to Attrition. This "ability just makes it so instead of 5 for big mobz I lose 1-3, still not much better, way better than paying for a strat mind you, but the fact that it relies on a warboss/nobz unit to be nearby is itself a bit of a nerf since Warbosses are hard to get now and Nobz just kind of stuck.

2 is nice to have, but it just makes ork armies fearless turn 1 and turn 2. Turn 3 morale is likely a non-issue or just another nail in the coffin

3: too powerful. I kind of like the thematic idea of allowing the painboy to bring back a dead model on a 5+. This is AFTER the enemy is done shooting. So if you lost 9 boyz, the dok would then scavenge the pieces and stitch 3 living boyz back together. In the fluff this happens and they immediately return to the fray. Fluffy, Fun, and useful. would almost justify the dok existing.

4: i'm with jidmah on this one as well. PK's are sadly doing ok for where they are. The problem is the plethora of -1dmg running around right now, but you can't buff PKs to 3dmg without having secondary consequences like Gravis armor and other 3wound models losing value.

5: Again, with Jidmah. I like the idea of boyz getting another buff in their statline, but I DO NOT want to tie it into size of the mob. I really like Trukk boyz, I think making that an abilily of Boyz rather then just a 1 off per detachment would make them at least competitive, especially if they keep their kulture.

Painboys should definitely be able to revive fallen infantry or biker models just like their counterparts from other armies. And +1 to wound is a massive upgrade, always. Something that should be really hard, if not flat out impossible, to get. Especially on low-mid strenght weapons such as choppas.

As I always repeat, troops shouldn't be good because of stats but because they interact well with the faction rules.

For example, giving this rule to boyz:

Da' big fight!: Every time a Waaagh! or a Speedwaaagh! is declared, if this unit has less than the starting amount of models, you can roll a dice for each of those missing models.
On a roll of 4+ you can add that model back to this unit. That model can only set up within Engagement Range of enemy units that are already within Engagement Range of this unit.


This partly covers the weakness to morale, since you want to completely delete the units, and also encourages bringing big units.

Spoletta wrote:
As I always repeat, troops shouldn't be good because of stats but because they interact well with the faction rules.

For example, giving this rule to boyz:

Da' big fight!: Every time a Waaagh! or a Speedwaaagh! is declared, if this unit has less than the starting amount of models, you can roll a dice for each of those missing models.
On a roll of 4+ you can add that model back to this unit. That model can only set up within Engagement Range of enemy units that are already within Engagement Range of this unit.


This partly covers the weakness to morale, since you want to completely delete the units, and also encourages bringing big units.

Doesn't fix the boyz models though. If you have a big blob of 30 boyz foot sloggin, it takes them 2 full turns just to cross the No mans Land. If the enemy doesn't pull back, and has deployed forward you could theoretically declare a WAAAGH turn 2 and have them charge. If they lost 6 models each turn they would on average lose 12 to battle dmg, 2 to morale and about 8 to attrition. So just killing 6 a turn brings the mob down to 8 models. On a 4+ they regain 11 models...honestly, I think your opponents would have an issue with you getting 99pts back for no reason other then WAAAGH You are still surrendering too many models turn 1 to the opponent so that on turn 2 they would just finish the mob off with relative ease. Remember, Turn 1: Kill 6, lose 1 to morale, lose 4 to attrition. Enemy killed 6, morale killed 5, mob is down to 19. Add in how lethal the game is becoming and you realize that killing 19 T5 wounds with basically no armor isn't that hard.