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I’m not thrilled about the rail gun. It just doesn’t seem very fun to play against. The unit has a 4+ rerolable to hit, wounds anything without wound mitigation on at least a three up for what essentially is 9+d3 damage. It’s a real kick in the pants for factions like demons where the invul is pretty much all they get on defense. It’s one shorting anything short of a land raider with no way to stop it other than you whiffing. Unless they start pricing it at land raider rates, this is just going to be obnoxious to play against. I certainly won’t enjoy just picking up lord discordants and demon engines with every volley.

Unlikely to come up very often in games, but fun to think about, a Kauyon'd Hammerhead could do 18+2d3 wounds to a target on later turns.

I'm not sure what the good units will be, but this 4th Tau article just adds to my feeling/prediction that Tau will be broken OP this edition.

bedivere wrote:
Blah Blah Blah

That's an awful lot of hypotheticals.

I suspect Hammerheads/longstrike will be going to BS4+/3+.

If they don't have a survivability boost, it's just more incentive for opponents to plan for alpha strikes.

We have no idea on their points and whether they will get Core.

I am dreading Markerlights going Core-locked, as anything that isn't Core at that point will be pretty much DOA if Markerlights are the main source of shooting buffs.

The article specifically mentioned that the Hammerhead would "pair well" with Markerlights. So either its CORE, or Markerlights work for non-Core units.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The article specifically mentioned that the Hammerhead would "pair well" with Markerlights. So either its CORE, or Markerlights work for non-Core units.

Good point! Though WarCom has been wrong about rules interactions in the past.

I think that is a lot of assumptions yes, but some people are also assuming that the hammerhead BS will change from 3+ to 4+.
I don’t think that will make much difference (hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/2) as most people seem to think that the longstrike ability will keep +1 to BS of hammerheads in 6” + any changes to markerlights and the affects that they have + abilities and stratagems + the re-roll for the hit roll anyway also.
It means while you only get 1 shot, the odds of hitting will likely be in your favour anyway.

(some are predicting 1 markerlight (is re-roll hits of 1) will be swapped with the 5 markerlight (+1 the hit roll), I don’t think that will happen was its too powerful for 1 markerlight).

I think that the changes will help (but not fix) the tau tidewall gunrig with the supremacy railgun (same as normal railgun but it has 2 shots and the tidewall has BS 5+.
With the re-roll the hits option this would change its shots from hitting 1/3 to 2/3, meaning you are now likely to get at least 1 hit from your two shots (before any changes to markerlights, stratagems and possible buffs that the tidewall may get). Hopefully this will also get the option for the submunitions stratagem to help with hordes.
(for the cost though I would still want to take the hammerhead instead, I like the look of the model and the idea behind it, just other thinks like montka make it a lot less useful)

Some are predicting changes now for the broadside and normal rail rifle and apparently there are changes to missiles too, just not announced yet (perhaps some will have an additional blast keyword shot profile (im looking at you seeker missile)).
So I guess the skyray may get a boost?

The changes im expecting to see is a small points reduction or changes in abilities ect for tau units like sniper drones / marksman, stealth suits) as they are still very expensive for what they offer compared to other elite units for other armies.
I was expecting a points cost reduction in piranhas + drones, but now with the changes to burst cannon and pulse carbine I would think that they are more competitive with outriders now, so wouldn't mind if they stayed as they are (haven't tested it out in play though).

None of these are included in the list other than the hammerheads, everything else has been mentioned in updates and most people assume what has not been mentioned in the list is likely to remain the same (except maybe the rail rifle, may change, also people are always talking about the crisis suits changing but I think we have seen the main change to them already).
I don’t think that the assumptions (other than hammerheads BS skill) are too much of a stretch).


Going bak to the ork rush battle:
So in that case I would be pointing the hammerheads at the ork trukks if LOS and deafkoptas if I don’t have LOS on trukks, and kommandos if it don’t have LOS on anything else (using submunitions hitting on 4+, with the 10 models and re-rolling one of the hits).

With the stats, 4 hammerheads could probably clear 3 turkks (10 wounds each X3=30) in 1 turn (hopefully explode one killing as many ork boys as possible, maybe worth spending a or two CP to force player to re-roll the explode dice just for the trolls). That should make you think twice about orks in trukks at all.
By round two you could almost take out 3X3 deafkoptas (4 wounds each X12=48) with hammerheads in one round, perhaps a bit of extra shooting with other units like pathfinders to finish them.

One unit of pathfinders further up to try to get markerlights on trukks or koptas (assuming markerlights don’t change too much).

Two fire warriors + fireblade + unit of relic pathfinders as a blob to try to deal with some / most kommandos, moving them up the board to get in half range (many dead, much dakka) or close to invite a charge (as im assuming tau sept keep the over watch hit on 5s + for the greater good).

Thats a lot of shooty (or dakka as the orks say), 25X S5 AP-1 D1 shots @ 36” and 3X S6 AP-4 DD3 @30”with at least 7 markerlights being shot.
When getting to half range 75X S5 AP-1 D1 shots @ 18” and 6X S6 AP-4 DD3 @15” with at least 7 markerlights being shot or 21X S5 AP0 D1 @13”
(+ montka may be adding 1 to AP and re-rolling wound rolls of 1 if in range; 18”, 12”, 9”. I feel that with this an ork rush may think twice in turn 1 (again just for the lols, this also applies to the hammerhead so if you rushed the deafkoptas and I rushed the hammerheads and the defkoptas (or turkks) ended up within range they got to face S14 AP-7 D3+6+3MW ignoring invlun saves …. AP-7!)

The skyray and unit of fire warriors trying to deal with war bikes or commandos.

Either manta strike the crisis suits + drones (maybe swap them for bodyguards, perhaps wait to see if codex gives bodyguard more of a boost) on war bikes, mek guns or kommandos (using the CP I saved from 1 detachment instead of 2 like the orks for crisis suit stratagems),
So that's 5 burst cannons for each unit that can be fired in engagement (30X S5 AP-1 D1 @18”) with the option to re-roll hits for the kommandos, and move shoot move for all of them.

The aim here being to get 2 or more objectives and destroy as many trukks or units as possible in the first round before then trying for more objectives, before montka wears off in turn 3. hopefully then they will have several objectives and the opposing force would not be able to have enough units to hold enough objectives and resist the remaining tau.

If you were thinking about deploying the 27X T5 W1 SV6+ kommandos 9” away from deployment (I would expect 1 or two to go for objectives instead, but perhaps you rely on war bikes, trukks, defkoptas for that). I would manta the crisis suits on mek guns.
The kommandos could be gone in the first round (montka with additional AP-1 and wound rolls of 1 re-roll) along with the 3 trukks and some ork boys. I would guess leaving 20 ish ork boys at the back/mid of play, 9 war bikes and 9 defkoptas mid field by the end of shooting turn 1 with the mekguns about to be charged at the back objectives.
End of turn 2 the mek guns, defkoptas or war bikes would be gone and perhaps some more orks, along with probably 1 pathfinders squad, maybe half of fire warriors, a tank or 2 or crisis suit squad if I were unlucky.
At the start of turn 3 you would likely have a handful of orks, mid board and some war bikes left vs 12+ fire warriors, a fireblade, 10 ish pathfinders, a tank or 2 and maybe 3 or more crisis suits + some single drones floating at you to drain war bikes shooting and stop you from moving freely.

I guess the question is now how would the orks handle tau?

you can't re-roll vehicle explodes or the 'roll 4+ to mortal wound' in 9th. There is a restrictive list of dice that can be re-rolled by the generic strat.

You are right on both accounts. but also wrong on one .... sort of.
The submunitions hitting on 4+ mortal wounds, was my mistake, had copy pasted the rules next to each other and looked like it was the same rule.

The vehicle exploding on D6 is the rule in 9th, with no CP re-roll, most people roll the dice themselves to see if the vehicle explodes.

However it much more fun if you discuss it with the player/s at the start of the match (Which is allowed, which we always do).
Spending a CP for a 1 in 6 chance is such a waste, certainly not a competition move, but it is very entertaining and the feeling everyone gets when being forced to re-roll that one dice again to find out if your own vehicle explodes.
Its a must and GW really should write it back into the rules.

bedivere wrote:


So now my anti ork army will bring back longstrike and as many hammerheads as i can lay hands on (max 3 in detachment).
Last time I was criticised for giving the same amount of detail as the ork army, and using two attachments, just like ork army, so this time more detail and crammed into one detachment.

Spoiler:

As tau sept
Spearhead detachment
Using montka (as we have established kauyon doesn’t work against ork rush)

Longstrike, with seeker missiles (meaning he always hits, his BS is 2+ and he gets +1 to hit rolls on all hammerheads in 6”, including himself, he also gets tank ace +1 to wound rolls), he also gets 1 additional markerlight if the target he shoots at has a markerlight on it so can be nice for the seeker missiles to be hitting on 2+. basically with the new data sheet (unless longstrike changes) he will be auot hitting, with the strenght 14 cannon he will be auto wounding and with the 3 mortal +6+d3 damage he could be putting out 10-12 wounds per round that have to be saved at 72" (or a ork trukk off the board at the start) + the other hammerheads are not far behind to target more.

3 hammerheads with gun drones or burst cannons (max I can take and hit on BS 3+, plus the +1 on hit rolls if near longstrike, plus any markerlights that allow re-roll of hits, plus stratagems that do the same + targetting array + submunitions for hordes) – these should be useful again.
A sky ray gunship (for its 2 markerlights, missiles and seeker missiles)

2 full 10 man pathfinder teams (with 3 rail rifles) and one with the networked markerlights relic (changing from heavy 1 to assault 1)
3 full 12 man squads of firewarriors with pulse rifles
A cadre fireblade (gives firewarriors the extra shot in half range, 3 shots @ 18” S5 AP-1 D1)

2 squads of 3 crisis battle suits in manta strike with burst cannons, advanced targeting (to get AP-1) and drone controller (3 because of stargagem cost and cant take more that 2 in the dettachment)

The remanning 150 - 200 points go on drones supporting the troops and crisis suits, maybe a broadside unit or another sky ray

As previously mentioned that is a hell of a lot of assumptions. Most notably the fact that the Hammerheads are getting a MASSIVE increase in power, and likewise will likely receive a substantial increase in cost. I think I priced your list out correctly on BS and it comes to 1,752pts. Its also illegal as previously mentioned (too many HS).

Conservatiely, a HH is currently 160pts with a railgun that does 1 shot, S10 -4 D6dmg and on a wound of 6+ D3 mortal wounds. This is getting buffed to S14, -6 D3+6 and when it does dmg it does 3 more mortals, it also gains the ability to ignore invulns. So it completely ignores armor and invulns now and went up in strength so it wounds T6 and T7 on 2s. Dmg wise it went from an average of 3.5 a turn to 11. If this likewise doesn't go up in price by at least 40pts I would be floored. So if it does go up 40 (likely going up 60) that itself is 160pts if you include longstrike. Burst cannons across the board got a big bump in value and likewise might see an increase in price, same for firewarriors etc etc etc. To assume that a Firewarrior that increased range by 20%, gained -1AP and has easy access to -2 is not going to get a price bump is hilarious. Orkz gained +1T and went up 2ppm while also losing all their strats, buffs and leadership abilities as well as their inherent +1 attack for mobz of 20+. Firewarriors likewise are probably going up to 10-11ppm.

bedivere wrote:

Going bak to the ork rush battle:
So in that case I would be pointing the hammerheads at the ork trukks if LOS and deafkoptas if I don’t have LOS on trukks, and kommandos if it don’t have LOS on anything else (using submunitions hitting on 4+, with the 10 models and re-rolling one of the hits).

This is likely a good point. A lot of people are underestimating the value of that new submunitions strat. You average 5 dead Kommandos from that little trick with no saves allowed for me. Thats 50pts right there. You would probably not want to target the koptas since I have easy access to -1 to hit and even if you hit them you can only ever kill 1, so 50pts there as well. Trukkz are currently heavily over priced at 70ppm so they wouldn't be a bad target.

bedivere wrote:
With the stats, 4 hammerheads could probably clear 3 turkks (10 wounds each X3=30) in 1 turn (hopefully explode one killing as many ork boys as possible, maybe worth spending a or two CP to force player to re-roll the explode dice just for the trolls). That should make you think twice about orks in trukks at all.
By round two you could almost take out 3X3 deafkoptas (4 wounds each X12=48) with hammerheads in one round, perhaps a bit of extra shooting with other units like pathfinders to finish them.

Honestly, if I am deploying my army and you have 4 HH's on the table i'm not putting things out in the open for easy targeting LOL and I'll damn sure make it so you have to shoot at less optimal targets with your HHs. At best i'd say you might get 2 trukkz, and the likelihood of an explosion isn't good.

As far as Deffkoptas, 4 wounds each, meaning 1 HH kills 1 Deffkopta, extra dmg from a shot does not spill over into the next target. So if you target my koptas i'll gladly give them -1 to hit and if you do hit them, you get 1 dead Kopta at 50pts as previously mentioned.

bedivere wrote:
Two fire warriors + fireblade + unit of relic pathfinders as a blob to try to deal with some / most kommandos, moving them up the board to get in half range (many dead, much dakka) or close to invite a charge (as im assuming tau sept keep the over watch hit on 5s + for the greater good).

Thats a lot of shooty (or dakka as the orks say), 25X S5 AP-1 D1 shots @ 36” and 3X S6 AP-4 DD3 @30”with at least 7 markerlights being shot.
When getting to half range 75X S5 AP-1 D1 shots @ 18” and 6X S6 AP-4 DD3 @15” with at least 7 markerlights being shot or 21X S5 AP0 D1 @13”
(+ montka may be adding 1 to AP and re-rolling wound rolls of 1 if in range; 18”, 12”, 9”. I feel that with this an ork rush may think twice in turn 1 (again just for the lols, this also applies to the hammerhead so if you rushed the deafkoptas and I rushed the hammerheads and the defkoptas (or turkks) ended up within range they got to face S14 AP-7 D3+6+3MW ignoring invlun saves …. AP-7!)

I'll gladly give you half range on the Kommandos since they are deploying 9' from deployment zone lol. So again, 12 Firewarriors in double tap range, with the Fireblade, thats 36 shots at S5 -2AP, BS 4 so 18 hits, S5 vs T5 is 9 wounds with 3 re-roll 1s for 10.5 wounds. -2AP means 5+ save so 7 dead Kommandos with all those buffs. So the 2 units of firewarriors kills 14 kommandos on average, the pathfinders I would assume are using their carbines not their markerlights. Thats 21 shots, 10.5 hits, 5.25 wounds with 1-2 rerolls for about .5 to 1 extra wound, go with 1, thats 6.25 at -1 for 3 extra dead orkz. So on average thats 17 dead Orkz, definitely not 30 dead Kommandos.

Also, and here is an important thing to remember, all of this is prefaced on the belief you get first turn, if I go first the best those units can do is overwatch, and at that point its GG. But lets keep going with the assumption you go first. So at this point you've maybe killed 1-2 trukkz, about half my Kommandos and everything else is pretty much unscathed barring explosions from the trukks if I left them exposed to HHs and they rolled poorly.

bedivere wrote:
The skyray and unit of fire warriors trying to deal with war bikes or commandos.

Warbikes are -1 to hit natively with 3 wounds at T5, they won't be in half range so firewarriors do 12 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2dmg, so not even 1 dead Warbike. the Skyray Maybe finishes off one. I doubt you are shooting a seeker missile at a warbike

bedivere wrote:
Either manta strike the crisis suits + drones (maybe swap them for bodyguards, perhaps wait to see if codex gives bodyguard more of a boost) on war bikes, mek guns or kommandos (using the CP I saved from 1 detachment instead of 2 like the orks for crisis suit stratagems),
So that's 5 burst cannons for each unit that can be fired in engagement (30X S5 AP-1 D1 @18”) with the option to re-roll hits for the kommandos, and move shoot move for all of them.

Manta strike is turn 2 so its useless against my list. If you deploy them on the ground then yeah, likely kills the remaining kommandos. But you open yourself up to the remaining alpha strike units and the mek gunz

bedivere wrote:
The aim here being to get 2 or more objectives and destroy as many trukks or units as possible in the first round before then trying for more objectives, before montka wears off in turn 3. hopefully then they will have several objectives and the opposing force would not be able to have enough units to hold enough objectives and resist the remaining tau.

Everything you have mentioned so far except for the manta strike has you not advancing forward and just shooting. You won't have objectives besides the ones in your deployment zone. 1-2 of my trukkz will most likely be alive and you won't be in a position to advance towards midfield until at best turn 3 and thats only if I don't inflict heavy return dmg on my turn 1.

bedivere wrote:
If you were thinking about deploying the 27X T5 W1 SV6+ kommandos 9” away from deployment (I would expect 1 or two to go for objectives instead, but perhaps you rely on war bikes, trukks, defkoptas for that). I would manta the crisis suits on mek guns.
The kommandos could be gone in the first round (montka with additional AP-1 and wound rolls of 1 re-roll) along with the 3 trukks and some ork boys. I would guess leaving 20 ish ork boys at the back/mid of play, 9 war bikes and 9 defkoptas mid field by the end of shooting turn 1 with the mekguns about to be charged at the back objectives.
End of turn 2 the mek guns, defkoptas or war bikes would be gone and perhaps some more orks, along with probably 1 pathfinders squad, maybe half of fire warriors, a tank or 2 or crisis suit squad if I were unlucky.
At the start of turn 3 you would likely have a handful of orks, mid board and some war bikes left vs 12+ fire warriors, a fireblade, 10 ish pathfinders, a tank or 2 and maybe 3 or more crisis suits + some single drones floating at you to drain war bikes shooting and stop you from moving freely.

I guess the question is now how would the orks handle tau?

I deploy 30 kommandos 9' from your deployment zone and NONE go for objectives, they go balls to the wall straight into your lines and start krumpin. If you manta your crisis suits, I still have Kommandos left over unless you dedicate the rest of your aforementioned units above. Trukkz are likely fine or 1 is dead since I wouldn't be dumb enough to deploy them in LOS of your HHs. So on my turn if I go second you have to deal with 1-2 units of Trukk Boyz, 9 Warbikers, 9 deffkoptas, 1-2 trukkz, mek gunz plinking away and likely a mob of Kommandos who survived because LOS, cover, bad rolls etc. Turn 2 you are tied up in CC for hte most part and on my turn the warbosses hop out and start laying down the thunder

I really don't change my list at all to deal with your list which is likely illegal/over points when the new costs come out. And the best part, if I go first...its GG almost immediately. Good luck getting any of those shots off when tied up in CC>

I wouldn't bet heavily on Tau to get points hikes. Its a faction which has been terrible all 9th, and *as a codex* have widely been considered bad outside of Riptides+Commanders+Drones... for the last 10 years? GW's thinking for those units is therefore more likely to be "these all need 9th Edition uplifting" rather than "this is a bit good and we need to be careful/nerf it into the ground".

To my mind if you were tailoring to deal with the Ork List, the answer has to be in a bubblewrap of Kroot and/or 5 man Fire Warrior squads to break up charges. If Kroot maintain their free 7" move they can potentially really block off forward-thrown Kommandos for instance. Although you have a fair amount of trash clear with the bikes, so maybe its not a guaranteed solution to the Orks going first. Obviously the viability of this will however depend on terrain and how many angles need to be blocked off.

It's way way early for anyone to get into specific list hypotheticals without more info.

To be fair to GW the last few balance passes have been overall pretty good for many other factions, and the dataslate, etc being used to fine-tune busted meta builds every few months is very encouraging.

I think our issue is going to be that with Tau it will NOT be a points thing it'll be an army construction/rules thing which will have them be broken/boring af to play with/against or hopefully somewhere in the middle.

Right now we are a really fun army to paint and look at that no one wants to play against, especially when in overtuned gunline wtf bbq mode.

I would agree with most of the things that you have there.
Especially the koptas with the -1 to hit fly (I hate that), I feel like (assuming markerlights stay the same) get 2 markerlights on them, so that I can use the shooting models BS for seeker missiles and then use sky ray to shoot them (as it gets +1 to hit on fly) so it would be hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s. Unfortunately the skyray does not get +1 to hit rolls form longstrike like hammerheads do (hopefully and expected to remain in new codex).
(seeker missile has the 72" range but only hits on 6 but can use the shooting models BS if there are 2+ markerlights, markerliights having 36" range).

There are a few exceptions to the agreements..

Its also illegal as previously mentioned (too many HS).

The spearhead detachment allows for 3-6 Heavy Support, 0-3 Troops, 1-2 HQ and 0-2 Everything else for 3CP.
Im using 4 Heavy Support, 3 Troops, 2 HQ, 2 Elite and 2 Fast Attack
While there are the limit of 3 of the same unit in the hammerheads, the fourth one is longstrike (A HQ not a heavy support) so the detachment is very legal and has room for heavy support left (4 Hammer heads 1 Sky ray and Points depending room for another).
I deliberately left a load of points free because I don't know how much the tanks will cost in the end. So im assuming that they will cost more. (again if they do get a huge increase in costs then the forgeworld legacy unit (that wouldn't get a boost in cost) could be appealing, as they have some good weapons on the hammer heads for hordes).

To clarify the pathfinders.
I would normally add the Recon drone (ignore saving bonus for being in cover) and Gravity Wave Projector drones to the pathfinders (hoping that the Gravity Wave Projector drones get a better boost in the new codex than -D3 to enemy charge rolls starting within 12" as thats weak, would perffer D3+1 or 2 and starting within 18").. (Pulse Accelerator drone +6" range to shooting, or +3" for half range shooting is tempting but not much use against a charging army)

The markerlights on units is re-roll hits of 1 so if the target units would have at least 1 markerlight (can be got with a CP Aerial Targeting Stratagem per unit and would make sense when you have a lot of hits with extra -AP) so of the 18 misses per unit (assuming that all 12 are still shooting and none have dies), roughly 6 would be re-rolled and 3 would hit (21 hits out of 36), same goes for other shots too.

You forgot to account for the shooting of drones / burst cannons on the hammerheads + skyray (they wouldn't have long range but do just fine against the nearby infantry). You also forgot that the fireblade shoots too, but only has one normal pulse rifle :(.
The idea being the pathfinders, 2 fire warriros + cardre fireblade would be shooting at 2 kommandos (20) and the skyray and extra firewarrior unit shoots at 3rd kommando unit, no benefit from the cardre fireblade there (with hammerhead drones helping out where needed).

The crisis suits could drop just about anywhere to help out and each one would have 5 burst cannons (again I am assuming that they will cost the same / roughly the same, but may switch between battle suit and bodyguard depending on points overall).

There are still a lot of assumptions along the lines of all units get to line up and march head on with no diagonal moment (increases distance), blocks in moment or terrain (increases distance like barricades or moving around objects), and that you could get 3 truks up field next to each other side by side on open flat terrain and then charge out with no bottlenecks or blocks.
It also seems to assume that while there is no terrain blocking some units form charging then there is terrain for kommandos to hide and get bonus to save? I could also assume that some of my infantry are on the third floor of a building, just to make charging more difficult.

Tyel wrote:
I wouldn't bet heavily on Tau to get points hikes.

Ork Big Mekz with Shokk Attack Gun were mediocre in 8th. When upgraded to have a Relic which DOUBLED their RoF they averaged 7 shots hitting on 5s at S7 -4(or 5 can't remember) AP and D6 dmg. This was considered to be too amazing for orkz to have and GW nerfed it with a MASSIVE increase in price. If you think a gun is going to go up 4 strength, 2AP and go from 3.5 average dmg to 11 and not receive a massive increase in price you are either right and GW is moronic or you are horribly wrong and the base price is going to go up drastically. I mean, GW is learning that D3+3 lascannons are too powerful, so why the hell would they take that and go "DOUBLE THE DMG AND THEN SOME!" and not give it a price hike?

SemperMortis wrote:
Ork Big Mekz with Shokk Attack Gun were mediocre in 8th. When upgraded to have a Relic which DOUBLED their RoF they averaged 7 shots hitting on 5s at S7 -4(or 5 can't remember) AP and D6 dmg. This was considered to be too amazing for orkz to have and GW nerfed it with a MASSIVE increase in price. If you think a gun is going to go up 4 strength, 2AP and go from 3.5 average dmg to 11 and not receive a massive increase in price you are either right and GW is moronic or you are horribly wrong and the base price is going to go up drastically. I mean, GW is learning that D3+3 lascannons are too powerful, so why the hell would they take that and go "DOUBLE THE DMG AND THEN SOME!" and not give it a price hike?

I don't want to turn this into an Orks sob story - but I'm pretty sure the Ork Codex was drafted by a team with relatively little understanding of the game, or Orks, only what certain competitive players (and the wider public) were saying. So GW didn't hear "this relic with Deathskulls is amazing" - they heard "Shokk Attack Gun too good". So they scrapped the relic and hiked the points. Boyz were menacing the meta? Well they can have T5 and a point of AP as their 9th Edition upgrade, but we are upping the points and scrapping the stratagems that made them so good and morale is a thing now. Remember those 3 months of people sending us emails whinging about Lootas? We better make sure nothing like that happens again - etc.

By contrast though, and its a bit hard for me to track the historical points cost over time (but I think I've got the right MFM) - didn't the Squigbuggy get a 20 point reduction in the codex (going 110->90) and approaching 3~ times as much shooting? Which maybe went too far - but it clearly sucked before. The Scrapjet likewise went down 20 points - but would get on average 2 extra rocket shots (or 3 with blast) and a bag more big shoota shots in close range.

No one was saying the Hammerhead was a problem before. The problem was the other way - its an iconic Tau Model, and its been in the deep freeze for ages due to being rubbish. They are therefore a prime target for GW to massively overbuff. Maybe it is moronic - but I think its fairly standard practice.
1. It sucked before so it needs a buff.
2. It also needs the 9th edition "everything does about 50% more damage than 8th for reasons".
Combine the two together and yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if you get to basically where you are for give or take the same points. Unless there's more to the unit.

SemperMortis wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I wouldn't bet heavily on Tau to get points hikes.

Ork Big Mekz with Shokk Attack Gun were mediocre in 8th. When upgraded to have a Relic which DOUBLED their RoF they averaged 7 shots hitting on 5s at S7 -4(or 5 can't remember) AP and D6 dmg. This was considered to be too amazing for orkz to have and GW nerfed it with a MASSIVE increase in price. If you think a gun is going to go up 4 strength, 2AP and go from 3.5 average dmg to 11 and not receive a massive increase in price you are either right and GW is moronic or you are horribly wrong and the base price is going to go up drastically. I mean, GW is learning that D3+3 lascannons are too powerful, so why the hell would they take that and go "DOUBLE THE DMG AND THEN SOME!" and not give it a price hike?

For the same reason that they buff and nerf DE in the same emergency balance update but only nerf Admech.
They are ineffable (or just plain clueless).

You can't point at at them doing X for army Y and then use that as a basis for what they will do to army Z because GW repeatedly makes it clear the don't work like that.

I am expecting some kind of possible points buff.
Tau needed a heavy hitting tank. They only have 2. The skyray and the hammerhead.
Put any of those against a repulsor executioner and they would loose big time.

When comparing it to those vehicles,they get a bunch of extra stuff and weapons and cost a lot more. The weapon on that thing is kinda similar to the new tau gun. (Think S12 AP a lot and D is D3+ more. I know it fires more than one shot too, will have to look it up).

If you strip it all the other things the SM repulsor executioner gets I would guess they would put tau hammerhead at 200pts total (including drones), maybe a little more.
If they were to add a big boost to points I would expect it to do more like transport etc.

 carldooley wrote:

OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
Zzzap

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/warhammer-40k-tau-railguns-are-getting-an-upgrade-in-the-new-codex.html

Strength 14 with a -6 AP and it does D3+6 damage and ignores invulns. Also free reroll.

This is before marker lights as well.

Well crap. There goes any reason to field my AX-1-0

Why? I didn't see any reference to the HH now being a flyer.

I do like the way the HH is able to 'hover' (fly) over the infantry. Drones make sense, but a tank skimming over the tiny tau's heads while gunz a blazing must be terrifying.
I certainly feel like these will be good units to take into the feild and will make tau a good offensive option to plink away and other vehicles (or even infantry units with the submunitions option), something that has been lacking for a while.
Now we can fianally take on some SM tanks, from the evil repulsor executioner to the more comparable gladiators.

bedivere wrote:
I am expecting some kind of possible points buff.
Tau needed a heavy hitting tank. They only have 2. The skyray and the hammerhead.
Put any of those against a repulsor executioner and they would loose big time.

When comparing it to those vehicles,they get a bunch of extra stuff and weapons and cost a lot more. The weapon on that thing is kinda similar to the new tau gun. (Think S12 AP a lot and D is D3+ more. I know it fires more than one shot too, will have to look it up).

If you strip it all the other things the SM repulsor executioner gets I would guess they would put tau hammerhead at 200pts total (including drones), maybe a little more.
If they were to add a big boost to points I would expect it to do more like transport etc.

Take any ork heavy vehicle and compare it to the executioner or this HH...orkz lose every single time be nice if GW realized that 5+ to hit is kind of a big problem for ranged attacks and the answer isn't to make it worse, its to either give it more shots or some kind of other buffs. The fact that the gunwagon is worse somehow then before is mind blowing.

Take any ork heavy vehicle and compare it to the executioner or this HH...orkz lose every single time be nice if GW realized that 5+ to hit is kind of a big problem for ranged attacks and the answer isn't to make it worse, its to either give it more shots or some kind of other buffs. The fact that the gunwagon is worse somehow then before is mind blowing.

Im not saying orks don’t need a big gun tank to take on the SM Repulsor Executioner, lets call it a Supa-kannon (Kannonwagon, 170pts movment 12” 60" Heavy 2D6 S8 AP-2 D3, Blast (total damage output = 2 – 36)

Repulsor Executioner (Heavy laser destroyer 72" Heavy 2 S12 AP-4 D D3+3 (damage = 8-)12)

To sit there and cry orks are as bad as tau is just trolling.
Ok I will take ork as an example

Ork have 11 heavy support options from GW (+1 legacy option, big guns, ... used to have that one myself decades ago when I collected orks + Orks get a bunch of FW options, see the first ork example).

Tau have 4 .... 4! that is it ... and that includes the sniper drones (which are one of, if not the worst sniper unit in the game and for sure will be getting a buff or points reduction). There are some FW options for kroot calvary, more heavy gun drones and a legacy option for the hammerhead turret.

A lot of the ork weapons have heavy DX for the number of shots to take, meaning that while you have higher BS5+ to hit, you tend to get a lot more shots to test it, plus the blast rule that means that you auto max the values on hordes is silly and just not the random ork army I fell in love with decades ago. (edit: just to clarify i do not still collect orks and left them many years agin, started with the do not step on pointy buggers from 2nd and left in 4th)
If like tau or SM you only have 1 or 2 shots then you will NEED a lower BS to hit.
The examples of orks here is heavy D6 and 2D6 against tau with 5X 12 model units = 6 & 12 shots hitting on 5+ (4 & 8 hits), both examples are S8 and D6 D3 damage (average 14 & 16 damage) assuming the hits go though on 2+, weak tau infantry, then that's a lot of damage.

Some of these Ork options have a lot higher damage outputs to the tau
Even your Mekguns that you have used in your list have higher possible max damage outputs (especially with blast on full tau infantry units giving max values), and they can be taken in squads and still cost less than the tau options!
1 Mekgun - Kustom mega-kannon 45pts 36" Heavy D6 S8 AP-3 D D6 (damage = 1-36)

Looking at the tau guns, maximum possible damage output before codex changes;
– Broadside --
Heavy rail rifle 60" Heavy 2 S8 AP-4 D D6 (damage = 2-12)
High-yield missile pod 36" Heavy 4 S7 AP-1 D D3 (damage = 4-12)
– Hammerhead --
Ion cannon -
Standard 60" Heavy 3 S7 AP-2 D2 (damage = 3-6)
Overcharge 60" Heavy D6 S8 AP-2 D D3 (damage = 1-18)
Railgun -
Solid shot 72" Heavy 1 S10 AP-4 D D6 (damage = 1-6 (possibly 9))
(+wound roll 6+ = D3 mortal wounds + normal damage)
Submunitions 72" Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 D1 (damage = 1-6)

bedivere wrote:

Im not saying orks don’t need a big gun tank to take on the SM Repulsor Executioner, lets call it a Supa-kannon (Kannonwagon, 170pts movment 12” 60" Heavy 2D6 S8 AP-2 D3, Blast (total damage output = 2 – 36)

Repulsor Executioner (Heavy laser destroyer 72" Heavy 2 S12 AP-4 D D3+3 (damage = 8-)12)

To sit there and cry orks are as bad as tau is just trolling.

Repulsor Executioner, you gave it the upgrade from its normal gun...not sure why but lets look into the build you suggested. For starters, it has incredibly easy access to re-roll 1s to hit from a host of characters and other options. But lets not include those either. Natively its BS3 but has +1 to hit for its main gun, so that HLD is hitting 1.66 times against T8 its wounding 1.11x and against the normal 3+ armor save its going straight through and doing 5.55dmg on average. That is without any buffs of any kind. The Plasma incinerator against that target will super charge and get 3.5 shots, 2.91 hits, (1/6 chance to hurt itself) and at S9 its wounding on 3s just like the laser destroyer, it also has -4 AP so it works out to 1.94 wounds and 5.83dmg. So slightly higher dmg on average But, that also forgets about the Fragstorm grenade launcher, the Heavy Onslaught gatling cannon, the storm bolter, the twin heavy bolter and the twin icarus ironhail heavy stubber. But lets just ignore those entirely as well because the Kannon wager is significantly cheaper than the Executioner.

The Kannonwagon gets 2D6 shots which works out to 7 on average, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds, 1.16 unsaved wounds for 3.5dmg a turn on average. So at half the cost it does less dmg but if you include the plethora of extra guns that the Executioner has the math quickly goes in favor of it and to a large margin. Ironically, the Executioner isn't taken either because its considered noncompetitive

bedivere wrote:
Ok I will take ork as an example

Ork have 11 heavy support options from GW (+1 legacy option, big guns, ... used to have that one myself decades ago when I collected orks + Orks get a bunch of FW options, see the first ork example).

Tau have 4 .... 4! that is it ... and that includes the sniper drones (which are one of, if not the worst sniper unit in the game and for sure will be getting a buff or points reduction). There are some FW options for kroot calvary, more heavy gun drones and a legacy option for the hammerhead turret.

OMG! Are you saying that the faction that has been around since literally Rogue trader has more options than the Tau who have only been around since 2001? My god, how unfair. Lets take a look at Ork heavy support choices. Technically, in battlescribe orkz have 17 choices Big Gunz and Lifta Wagon are Legends though, so down to 15. The Big Trakk, kanonwagon, mega dread, meka-dread and Squiggoth are FW options and insanely expensive. GW decided to break the Battlewagon from 1 option into 3. Gunwagon, Bonebreaker and Battlewagon are the same model with different weapon loadouts. Out of all those options, competitively we have Mek Gunz, Killrigs and maybe hunta rig/deff dreadz but I would argue those last 2 aren't competitive. Regardless, the main point was Orkz have been around since Day 1 of Rogue Trader, Tau only came out 20 years ago.

bedivere wrote:
A lot of the ork weapons have heavy DX for the number of shots to take, meaning that while you have higher BS5+ to hit, you tend to get a lot more shots to test it, plus the blast rule that means that you auto max the values on hordes is silly and just not the random ork army I fell in love with decades ago. (edit: just to clarify i do not still collect orks and left them many years agin, started with the do not step on pointy buggers from 2nd and left in 4th)
If like tau or SM you only have 1 or 2 shots then you will NEED a lower BS to hit.
The examples of orks here is heavy D6 and 2D6 against tau with 5X 12 model units = 6 & 12 shots hitting on 5+ (4 & 8 hits), both examples are S8 and D6 D3 damage (average 14 & 16 damage) assuming the hits go though on 2+, weak tau infantry, then that's a lot of damage.

Some of these Ork options have a lot higher damage outputs to the tau
Even your Mekguns that you have used in your list have higher possible max damage outputs (especially with blast on full tau infantry units giving max values), and they can be taken in squads and still cost less than the tau options!
1 Mekgun - Kustom mega-kannon 45pts 36" Heavy D6 S8 AP-3 D D6 (damage = 1-36)

Looking at the tau guns, maximum possible damage output before codex changes;
– Broadside --
Heavy rail rifle 60" Heavy 2 S8 AP-4 D D6 (damage = 2-12)
High-yield missile pod 36" Heavy 4 S7 AP-1 D D3 (damage = 4-12)
– Hammerhead --
Ion cannon -
Standard 60" Heavy 3 S7 AP-2 D2 (damage = 3-6)
Overcharge 60" Heavy D6 S8 AP-2 D D3 (damage = 1-18)
Railgun -
Solid shot 72" Heavy 1 S10 AP-4 D D6 (damage = 1-6 (possibly 9))
(+wound roll 6+ = D3 mortal wounds + normal damage)
Submunitions 72" Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 D1 (damage = 1-6)

Have to be honest, I absolutely abhor the way you did this. Min/max dmg is useless information. Technically a Stompa has enough firepower to level an entire army in a single turn. Its deffkannon alone could theoretically do 108dmg Does that make it good or useful? No. 108 is the max possible dmg, the better metric to measure a gun by is AVERAGE dmg. Max dmg for the deffkannon is 108, average is....8.16 against T6-T8 with 3+ armor. I think 100 less dmg then its max is a slightly important note to make in regards to the data you are pushing above. Max dmg is useless.

To use a unit you specifically mentioned, the KMK Mek gun. max dmg is 36, it AVERAGES 3.5 shots, 1.75 hits, against T5-7 thats 1.16 wounds and against a 3+ save its 3.4dmg on average. Or 1/10th-11th (ish) the max dmg.

Now lets compare it to those Tau weapons you mention.
Heavy Rail Rifle: Max 12, averages... 2.3 against T5-7 and that doesn't include the possibility of the mortal wound on a 6. about 1/5th the max.

And of course none of this factors in the regular buffs these units are getting. A shooty ork list tends to get +1 to hit from Freeboota kulture, sadly our best shooting units can't utilize this, Kannon wagonz, Stompas, Mek gunz, hell even Tankbustas can't use it against their target of choice (vehicles). On the flipside, Tau get re-roll 1s, ignores cover, +1 shots etc etc etc. Your analysis will never be worth much if you compare max dmg to max dmg. The better metric is average vs average and the even better metric is average with normal buffs + average with normal buff. And final note, I have to point out that nobody is bringing hordes these days in competitive games so saying 2D6 maxes out or whatever else isn't true because it doesn't happen. Most common opponents are SM and they for the most part can't even field units which would fall into the 11+ category in order to trigger this. Nor would custodes, Sisters etc etc. Hordes are pretty much dead in 9th thanks to the new rules. As a competitive note to you, thats why you shouldn't field Firewarriors in squads of 12, just cut the last 2 off and save yourself the hassle of extra losses because of dumb rules.

I think we are straying very far from 'how to fix Tau in the new Codex' with these hypothetical matchups. You'll get plenty of ork/tau fights in a few months don't worry.

OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
I think we are straying very far from 'how to fix Tau in the new Codex' with these hypothetical matchups. You'll get plenty of ork/tau fights in a few months don't worry.

I don't think its straying very far at all. We are talking about theoretical weapon damages. He is using MAX dmg as an example of why shooting is fine for Orkz but needs a bump for Tau. I'm pointing out that this isn't the case

There is a reason Tau suck in 9th, and its not because there shooting isn't good. Its because they have no ability to seize central objectives without giving away their biggest army benefit, Range.

Basic Tau firewarrior just got a buff of 6' range and -1AP on its basic rifle. How many other factions can field a basic troops choice that is shooting at 36' range at S5 -1AP? not to many I would wager and if you do give up that range buff to stay closer to the deployment line, you can get a double and/or triple tap (fireblade) with those guys from 18' range. Going back to theoretical dmg, a unit of 12 firewarriors could theoretically put out 36dmg a turn And if you choose Kauyon (you lose) and survive to turn 3, you could theoretically get 72dmg

Interesting thoughts so far for sure. The current Tau codex is not the best in the current edition (close to the worst), and it is not strictly due to any inherent points inefficiencies when compared to more recent releases, but more due to the fact that Tau are really quite bad at holding objectives. Tau can take objectives quite easily, they have some really good weapons for doing that, and the interplay between units, markerlights and stratagems means you can quickly neuter a lot of defences enemy units might have.

What I would like to see, although I currently have no idea how it could be implemented in a balanced way (lots of ways it could be implemented in an unbalanced way though...) is for the Tau scoring on primaries to be different from everyone else. Its established in the fluff that Tau do not seek to hold ground, just use it to kill the enemy, and they see no dishonour in giving up ground if it allows them to do so.

I would also like to see the markerlights revamped, as it currently stands there are 2 results (1 and 5) that you will want to use almost all the time, and 3 that are situational, to the point where often you will, as a tau player given the points investment required to get 5 markerlights on something, simply stop at 1. and Farsight enclaves mean that even this is not strictly required given their sub-faction bonus.

While I personally loved Jetpacks from their introduction, the JSJ on loads of units is something that was really annoying for your opponent to deal with and i can understand why it was removed as an ability. I can't imagine GW would be silly enough to ever reintroduce a similar rule on a wide scale.

To follow on from the Orks v Tau segue, facing, and countering, point and click rush armies are something that every player will have to deal with at some point, and there are plenty of tools that can be used to help against them. There is a 25% chance that a rush army can win deployment AND first turn, and in those cases it can be an uphill battle, but more likely the Rush army will only win one, and of course there is the 25% chance they will lose both deployment and first turn. Stealth suits can infiltrate and deny areas of the board for enemy infiltrators, block movement routes for fast units meaning the enemy can be dealt with piecemeal, Remoras are super useful at moving up and blocking routes as well (and scoring secondaries).

In the event you were to get first turn against 30 Kommandos 9 inches away from you, if you can't deal with 33 T5 6+ wounds in range of your whole army, then you have bigger problems. Cover bonuses can be easily dealt with. 3 markerlights, multi spectral sensor suite and Smart missiles are all things you can use. 10 Breachers shooting alone can kill most of a squad of kommandos (FE & a couple of markerlight hits).

In the 1 in 4 games against rush armies where they get to control deployment and get first turn, then any Tau force is in for a world of hurt, regardless of whether they are Orks or any other flavour of point and click army. In those situations you need to super concentrate on getting secondaries and slowing up the enemy as much as possible. its a great way to practice your screening for sure, and if you somehow manage to survive the first few turns, then you should be able to get 15 primaries in your last turn, and anything you get before that is certainly a bonus.

I never liked the GW rules on overcharge, it should result in either a broken weapon (cant shoot with that again) or more MW to the unit than 1 (ie like splash damage in 1 wound infantry with plasma), should be more intensive to stick to the standard profile and more strategic to use it.
I mention this as this the only way most tau get blast, with ion cannons, on the few units that get ion cannons.

I would like to get more blast keywords, other than on a few ion cannon guns (like everything on orks seems to have), or grenades that do stuff rather than make pretty lights. Perhaps some missile attacks should get blast? (am glaring at the seeker missile on that one, as well as other missile attacks). It would certainly help when facing horde armies (like they get when facing tau).

Perhaps to also make kroot melee killy and chargeable (but still weak so not OP, currently S3 T3) but put a limit on the number of kroot that can be taken with tau (similar to new sisters rule about not bringing more of the new unit than battle sisters squads), so you still need a tau gun line. That way tau still have to use the gun line to shoot, but kroot can get in and push a weaken target (from the shooting) off an objective?
(Give kroot more than 1 attack and any AP would be good and perhaps more that S+1 to melee), still they are cheap though

Im still thinking GW as forgotten about kroot and vespid.

From leaked instruction manual:

New Pulse Blaster profiles (just 2 now)
Assault 2 14" S5 AP1 D1
Assault 2 8" S6 AP2 D1

Strikes/Breachers +1 leadership.
Drones +2" movement.
Shield drones +1 wound.

From the support turrets:
Missile pod Assault 2 30" S7 AP2 D2
SMS Heavy 4 S5 AP1 D1

bedivere wrote:
I never liked the GW rules on overcharge, it should result in either a broken weapon (cant shoot with that again) or more MW to the unit than 1 (ie like splash damage in 1 wound infantry with plasma), should be more intensive to stick to the standard profile and more strategic to use it.
I mention this as this the only way most tau get blast, with ion cannons, on the few units that get ion cannons.

I would like to get more blast keywords, other than on a few ion cannon guns (like everything on orks seems to have), or grenades that do stuff rather than make pretty lights. Perhaps some missile attacks should get blast? (am glaring at the seeker missile on that one, as well as other missile attacks). It would certainly help when facing horde armies (like they get when facing tau).

Perhaps to also make kroot melee killy and chargeable (but still weak so not OP, currently S3 T3) but put a limit on the number of kroot that can be taken with tau (similar to new sisters rule about not bringing more of the new unit than battle sisters squads), so you still need a tau gun line. That way tau still have to use the gun line to shoot, but kroot can get in and push a weaken target (from the shooting) off an objective?
(Give kroot more than 1 attack and any AP would be good and perhaps more that S+1 to melee), still they are cheap though

Im still thinking GW as forgotten about kroot and vespid.

My hope, even if they miss it in the codex release is that Kroot get updated when they finally get included in a Kill Team set (which I do think is fairly likely eventually). Though Kroot seem particually well suited to being creatively used in Crusade (or Krootsade if you will ) so I haven't given up on all hope for everything yet. Fingers crossed.

OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
Sounds like we are getting a new Codex next year, but how would -you- all fix Tau to be able to reasonably play the mission in 9th Edition?

My take:

Tau need to avoid the worst extremes of the triptide drone castle nonsense from previous eras and return to 'highly mobile fire teams' in the lore. They need to be able to compete with the other armies over objectives and not have the 'best' builds be immobile gunlines (boring!)

+Crisis Suits could be troops, and able to be the core of your army if you want
+Jump Shoot Jump or similar should be a thing. IF we don't have any possible melee and psychic options then we need something to counterbalance those gaps
+Assault Transports / Fish of Fury: having a ton of transports running around disgorging fragile breachers for point blank shenanigans (but how do we make this distinct from Druks?)
+Melee Crisis Suits: There's no reason anime gundam suits shouldn't have big 'ole laser swords to help compete in the 9th era

I think it would just be more 'fun' for both Tau players and opponents if we had more opportunities to play to the 9th edition ruleset and get in there and mix it up instead of the old giant drone castle builds.

What are you all's hopes for the new Tau Codex?

Its been a while since I checked but as I recall Tau have one of the lowest points per Troop (ObSEc) choice lists And it lands in the worst part of no-man's-land. Its really taking it from both ends to be too small to be durable, and too big to avoid a blast. The main rules have dramatically improved on "forcing" the mission but the army lists/books are still way behind. Playing the mission was incentivised. Making the list has not been. They've certainly laid some interesting ground work for things - between keywords, and strats. Imagine introducing some sort of mechanic that results in essentially 0 point strats to synergize troop choices with toy choices in a way that makes you want to take the troop choices and work with them. Say - you need to have 1 point to use 0 point strats, but they still don't cost a point - and in this case troop choice A gets plus accuracy if Fast Attack Choice B is closer to and targeting (Enemy Units) than Troop Choice A. - I don't know Tau as well as other armies but imagine Hormugants getting a movement boost from having gargoyles closer to the enemy unit they're moving towards, while Termagants would get an extra shot or something. At the same time those gargoyles would get a small boost for the Gants/gaunts. Similar to the Formations of back a ways but all pretty low powered 1-2 combo things all based around a Troops Choice. Sort of turn Troops into a Build-A-Bear with strats.

Well the new rules for the Stormsurge have been released for the Pulse blastcannon, it sounds like a heavy hitter.
I recall they said the rail gun was not the most powerful upgraded weapon in the codex so im looking forward for the Pulse driver cannon stats.
Am sure that will be the most powerful weapon upgraded in the new codex.
Stabilising Anchors now let you re-roll the hit roll (instead of +1).
This goes to making it all more leathal.

Counterfire defense system (guessing a suit upgrade that can be taken on some things) can reduce damage taken in the enemy shooting phase, giving more durability.
I think this is just for the Stormsurge but still makes it more durable.

Hopefully we see some durability boost to crisis suits
or better yet some mention of the alien aux that tau have access to (kroot and vespid and maybe more?).

bedivere wrote:
Well the new rules for the Stormsurge have been released for the Pulse blastcannon, it sounds like a heavy hitter.
I recall they said the rail gun was not the most powerful upgraded weapon in the codex so im looking forward for the Pulse driver cannon stats.
Am sure that will be the most powerful weapon upgraded in the new codex.
Stabilising Anchors now let you re-roll the hit roll (instead of +1).
This goes to making it all more leathal.

Counterfire defense system (guessing a suit upgrade that can be taken on some things) can reduce damage taken in the enemy shooting phase, giving more durability.
I think this is just for the Stormsurge but still makes it more durable.

Hopefully we see some durability boost to crisis suits
or better yet some mention of the alien aux that tau have access to (kroot and vespid and maybe more?).

The Pulse Blastcannon is the 'most powerful weapon'. The Pulse Driver is the (slightly) weaker long range weapon for the Stormsurge.