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I mean Eldar are supposed to be moving so fast that you cannot even see them in recordings unless you slow down.

And of course a sniper rifle is not the same as a Eldar raider full of kabalites high on all kind of drugs blasting their automatic poisoned weapons. But they also had heavier weapons that other armies needed to be stationary to shoot and they could shoot while advancing no problem.

 Dysartes wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
There's a series of movies where this elf fella is really good at shooting a bow accurately while running, jumping, sliding etc. It kinda showed the ability of elves to be quick and do what other species have to do while stationary. Can't remember anyone really being annoyed with it? Go figure.

Oh I do remember. Particularly when doing things like sliding downstairs with a shield, or a mumak and all. I do remember many people stating "that's fething stupid".

That threshold varies from people to people. Go figure.

I'd personally prefer a Vyper, myself, which is basically already a fast sniper.

well, there are those people who will literally bitch and whine about everything, can't avoid that. Fun people to be around too

"My example was found to be flawed, therefore the people who found the flaws must be the problem..."

If the shoe fits. I mean, with everything in 40K that just defies logic, apparently an eldar sniper on the back of a jetbike just tips the scales, eh?
But there are those types that will just complain about every little aspect of a movie/game that they find unrealistic, and yes, they are not fun to be with at parties. Unless of course, you're the guy, then you probably don't even know what I'm talking about. C'est la vie.

 bullyboy wrote:
If the shoe fits. I mean, with everything in 40K that just defies logic, apparently an eldar sniper on the back of a jetbike just tips the scales, eh?
But there are those types that will just complain about every little aspect of a movie/game that they find unrealistic, and yes, they are not fun to be with at parties. Unless of course, you're the guy, then you probably don't even know what I'm talking about. C'est la vie.

Not really. It's simply that I found the Vyper significantly cooler, and it could use an update, seeing the current model is 24 years old.

OTOH, it is still cool.

And the fact is that most people has clear ideas of what a sniper is and how it functions, and "zipping around on the back of a jetbike" kinda feels weird for that.

Particularly the stuff that says on the "leaked" rules about being better ar 12'', which feels as un-sniper as something can be.

You give those rules to a single scout on a tricked-out jetbike with an automated back module that shoots homing, auto targeting short range missiles, and you have something that for me would feel cooler and different. For example.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Then what's the point of a tandem? If they don't fire and drive at the same time, then why have a crew of two?

I could see it working. The sniper keeps an eye out for shooting spots or targets of opportunity, while the driver focuses on following the sniper's guidance. The bike gets to the shooting spot, the sniper draws a bead and fires, and the driver zooms off to the next spot while the sniper is still stowing his or her rifle away.

Of course, this all assumes that this is legitimate, and that the lore is for "briefly pause and shoot" instead of "shoot on the move".

 Dysartes wrote:
Just to be clear, Rangers on Jetbikes I don't really mind - Rangers on tandem jetbikes, with the person riding pillion firing a sniper rifle while they move is where I have issues.

Yeah… sort of breaks the rule of cool.

 Dysartes wrote:
Just to be clear, Rangers on Jetbikes I don't really mind - Rangers on tandem jetbikes, with the person riding pillion firing a sniper rifle while they move is where I have issues.

Thunderwolf Cavalry are one of the dumbest and most Flanderised concepts GW has ever come up with, yet the execution of the miniatures was pretty damned good (Wolf Lord Wolfy 'The Wolf' McWolf stupid mini notwithstanding). The same could apply here.

Also, I don't see what the problem with firing a rifle from a jetbike is. Horse archers were a thing.

Horse archers were not snipers.

Horse archers would be the regular jetbikes.

"Sniper" does not really evoque "snap shoot" or "drive by".

And Thunderwolf Cavalry is still fething stupid. Taste on the minis can vary, I find them horrid.

Will have to see what the final release looks like but I don't see a huge issue with Rangers firing from the back of a jetbike. If Guardians can do so from Vypers with a heavy weapon, why not Rangers?

Also, Eldar have been depicted and described as doing things that might seem incredible or impossible for humans, such as moving so fast that videos need to be slowed down to see them as more than just a blur, kicking back grenades thrown at them, or dodging shots because they can read that human's sluggish body language telegraphing where he is going to shoot. Eldar are described in the 2nd edition Codex as living at a more intense pitch and faster pace than a human (while also having longer lifespan), with keener senses and faster reflexes. One of Gav Thorpe's novel for example shows they see and integrate visual images faster than humans can, as the Eldar found the lights on a human ship annoying because they saw them as flickering while the humans saw only constant light. If Eldar process visual images faster than humans, then shooting from a speeding jetbike might not be as difficult as it would be for a human.

For such a species, why would it be that far fetched to think they could pull off a laser shot which then does not need to worry about things like wind or gravity affecting the shot trajectory significantly? We also don't know if the Ranger has some sort of targeting tech helping. We know at least from 2nd edition rules, that the Vyper pilot and gunner had targeters on their weapons to help them.

To be clear, I am completely opposed to new Vypers.
This has absolutely nothing to do with me having 3 vypers still in boxes for God knows how many years. No, not at all.

@Dysartes.
I was a little snippy earlier, not sure why, no cause for it. Apologies dude.

Bottom line for me, how does the model look. I'm a sucker for cool looking Eldar models.

It's just a matter of looks and the meaning of words. Simply, when you hear "sniper" you don't picture that. Rather, you imagine sneaky, stealthy and deliberate.

And there's many other ways you can achieve the same effect as the supposed leaked rules (I even gave one off the top of my head).

It's not like it would be the end of the world, either, but there will be people who won't like it.

In all fairness, sniper trickshots have become a major cultural touchstone ever since Halo and Counter-Strike ruined the idea of sniping from a distance forever.

 Flipsiders wrote:
In all fairness, sniper trickshots have become a major cultural touchstone ever since Halo and Counter-Strike ruined the idea of sniping from a distance forever.

To my knowledge Gw has not incorporated teabagging as a command point stratagem but you're hinting that there may be a chance!??!

Rangers are scouts, saboteurs, and marksmen, not just snipers.

I see zero issue with rangers on bikes with long-rifles.

 warboss wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
In all fairness, sniper trickshots have become a major cultural touchstone ever since Halo and Counter-Strike ruined the idea of sniping from a distance forever.

To my knowledge Gw has not incorporated teabagging as a command point stratagem but you're hinting that there may be a chance!??!

In the grim darkness of the far future, blah blah blah teabagging joke blah blah blah.

On Mother Cadia, we do not suck the bags of tea. [/stern humorless aspergers expression of a cadian comedian that misses the point of the art more infamously than Vogon's miss the point of poetry]

 Dysartes wrote:
Just to be clear, Rangers on Jetbikes I don't really mind - Rangers on tandem jetbikes, with the person riding pillion firing a sniper rifle while they move is where I have issues.

Same here. Using a jetbike for transit is sensible, a sniper gunner on what amounts to a vyper is...odd.

 Albertorius wrote:
Horse archers were not snipers.

Horse archers would be the regular jetbikes.

"Sniper" does not really evoque "snap shoot" or "drive by".

Yup, sniper on fast moving, flying platform is an unprecedented idea that has never been done

I'm glad the Rangers are getting some love, next to the Scorpions and Hawks, they were the models that got me into TT. I hope the pricing is tamed, as I'd really like to get those three new units (to add to the pile of shame).

 Kanluwen wrote:
Rangers are scouts, saboteurs, and marksmen, not just snipers.

I see zero issue with rangers on bikes with long-rifles.

Good for you, you're clearly not one of the people who it would bother.

But a long-rifle with a precision sight is a sniper weapon nonetheless, so it won't be the case for everyone.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Horse archers were not snipers.

Horse archers would be the regular jetbikes.

"Sniper" does not really evoque "snap shoot" or "drive by".

Yup, sniper on fast moving, flying platform is an unprecedented idea that has never been done

Yes, shooting from a helo flying straight is clearly the same than zigging an zagging in a bike at ground level and shooting at 12'" or less to ignore cover. Exactly the same.

Would love this, but it might not mean anything if they make the units five mini boxes at $105.00 like they did with the new Howling Banshees, here in NZ...I will make sure to use Mighty Ape and wait for them to be reduced and even then... (I'm sorry I still continue to whinge about it lol)

 Albertorius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Rangers are scouts, saboteurs, and marksmen, not just snipers.

I see zero issue with rangers on bikes with long-rifles.

Good for you, you're clearly not one of the people who it would bother.

But a long-rifle with a precision sight is a sniper weapon nonetheless, so it won't be the case for everyone.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Horse archers were not snipers.

Horse archers would be the regular jetbikes.

"Sniper" does not really evoque "snap shoot" or "drive by".

Yup, sniper on fast moving, flying platform is an unprecedented idea that has never been done

Yes, shooting from a helo flying straight is clearly the same than zigging an zagging in a bike at ground level and shooting at 12'" or less to ignore cover. Exactly the same.

What, you're saying that a helicopter that can zig and zag near ground level doesn't do that when deploying a sniper? it's a shame that a jetbike only has 'zig' or 'zag' on its control console, if only it had, fly straight and high when my buddy is sniping as mode may be these two vehicles could be compared...

The fact that their rifles have grav stabilising stalks making them work like a gravity gimble surely doesn't help them maintain high accuracy while on a moving vehicle.

 Hellebore wrote:
What, you're saying that a helicopter that can zig and zag near ground level doesn't do that when deploying a sniper? it's a shame that a jetbike only has 'zig' or 'zag' on its control console, if only it had, fly straight and high when my buddy is sniping as mode may be these two vehicles could be compared...

Thank you for putting words in my mouth man. Kindly don't. I was commenting on the actual video, not on any imagined scenario you might add up to that to move goalposts.

But no, a copter won't "zig and zag" a couple meters from the ground as jetbikes do, and won't put itself 12'' or less from the target to ignore cover, as the leaked rules say these new jetbikes supposedly do.

An if it does, it will feel fething stupid.

But hey, you do you. I have tried to have a conversation, but it's clear that if I'm disagreeing with papa GW on what's cool I'm to shut up.

Iracundus wrote:
Will have to see what the final release looks like but I don't see a huge issue with Rangers firing from the back of a jetbike. If Guardians can do so from Vypers with a heavy weapon, why not Rangers?

From what little description we've heard, the idea seems to be this style of bike rather than this style of bike.

I wonder if you can spot the element that makes firing a heavy weapon from the back of a Vyper a bit more more practical than firing a sniper rifle accurately from the back of a Skyweaver...

 Hellebore wrote:
The fact that their rifles have grav stabilising stalks making them work like a gravity gimble surely doesn't help them maintain high accuracy while on a moving vehicle.

Yeah... hm, you know, thaht kinds feels like a Vyper...

OTOH, even if your gun weights nothing, you still have to keep it still and level. And somehow, for some reason, if feels more feasible using the vyper turret-like seating than hanging for dear life on the backseat of a bike.

Anyways, it's a taste thing. People can have differing tastes: for some people one way will feel much cooler than the other, and there's not really much wrong with it either way.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
What, you're saying that a helicopter that can zig and zag near ground level doesn't do that when deploying a sniper? it's a shame that a jetbike only has 'zig' or 'zag' on its control console, if only it had, fly straight and high when my buddy is sniping as mode may be these two vehicles could be compared...

Thank you for putting words in my mouth man. Kindly don't.

But no, a copter won't "zig and zag" a couple meters from the ground as jetbikes do, and won't put itself 12'' or less from the target to ignore cover, as the leaked rules say these new jetbikes supposedly do.

An if it does, it will feel fething stupid.

But hey, you do you. I have tried to have a conversation, but it's clear that if I'm disagreeing with papa GW on what's cool I'm to shut up.

No, all I did was point out that you were choosing to ignore the multi-modal nature of the vehicles and their capacity to do more than just the one thing you described.

Your argument was effectively 'jetbikes can only be driven in such a way as to make sniping off them impossible, therefore sniping off them is stupid'.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
What, you're saying that a helicopter that can zig and zag near ground level doesn't do that when deploying a sniper? it's a shame that a jetbike only has 'zig' or 'zag' on its control console, if only it had, fly straight and high when my buddy is sniping as mode may be these two vehicles could be compared...

Thank you for putting words in my mouth man. Kindly don't.

But no, a copter won't "zig and zag" a couple meters from the ground as jetbikes do, and won't put itself 12'' or less from the target to ignore cover, as the leaked rules say these new jetbikes supposedly do.

An if it does, it will feel fething stupid.

But hey, you do you. I have tried to have a conversation, but it's clear that if I'm disagreeing with papa GW on what's cool I'm to shut up.

No, all I did was point out that you were choosing to ignore the multi-modal nature of the vehicles and their capacity to do more than just the one thing you described.

Your argument was effectively 'jetbikes can only be driven in such a way as to make sniping off them impossible, therefore sniping off them is stupid'.

I didn't, actually. Never did say it was the only way. Just the one the rules tell you. Had the rule been something like "ignore cover when shooting from more that 24 inches away" it would have felt more like you said, but the way the rules were stated to work they have to be pretty much in your face to do it.

But ok. Bye.

Getting kinda worried that it sounds like we aren't getting any new Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers.

So much for heavy fire power or anti-tank.

 dan2026 wrote:
Getting kinda worried that it sounds like we aren't getting any new Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers.

So much for heavy fire power or anti-tank.

To be fair those are things the eldar don't lack anyway, even without those kits being refreshed.

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Getting kinda worried that it sounds like we aren't getting any new Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers.

So much for heavy fire power or anti-tank.

To be fair those are things the eldar don't lack anyway, even without those kits being refreshed.

Still need refreshing, though. On account of being finecast, if nothing else.

 dan2026 wrote:
Getting kinda worried that it sounds like we aren't getting any new Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers.

So much for heavy fire power or anti-tank.

I could easily see those being done as a stand-alone release in future like Banshees or Incubi.

GW were never going to re-do all aspects (and phoenix lords) at the same time as it reduces capacity for other new toys like Guardians, Rangers, or the Avatar.

 dan2026 wrote:
Getting kinda worried that it sounds like we aren't getting any new Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers.

We're supposedly still waiting for the Tyrion's part of the Lumineth release, and we only have rumours for the new Eldar along with WHC's sneak peaks at this point. I'm not one for pointlessly hyping things, but it feels it is a bit too soon to feel underwhelmed by the quantity (or quality of execution) of new releases.