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Bolters should be AP -1. They're supposed to be the elitest and bestest, why only give them super-flashlights? (I'm ONLY talking about the feel of the weapon and army compared to others, not any consideration how it fits into the current gameplay environment. As weapons used by the Super Humans Bestest Cool Bros Bolters feel like they should have basic AP.)

But then again all SMs should be powered up and costed appropriately, it has always been ridiculous how the SUPER MEGA ULTRA WARRIORS are deployed en masse on the tt like they're Imperial Guard+. But then GW does like money and selling lots of models, so would never make them play like custodes.

^Reading all the bolter-porn has made you go blind.

just play Thousand Sons maybe

Bolters at AP-1 would be OP assuming units that carry those keep the same points cost. But then they'd be overpriced, to the point that no one would bring them anyway .

Jumping from AP0 and AP-1 is a big deal, not easy to balance, especially on weapons that can be spammed. Flat AP0 and AP-1 for 1-2 for SM seems very appropriate to me.

And to be honest considering how many units in the game are equipped with bolters I'd argue that the weapon is the probably the most common one in the entire 40k universe.

 Blackie wrote:
Bolters at AP-1 would be OP assuming units that carry those keep the same points cost. But then they'd be overpriced, to the point that no one would bring them anyway .

Jumping from AP0 and AP-1 is a big deal, not easy to balance, especially on weapons that can be spammed. Flat AP0 and AP-1 for 1-2 for SM seems very appropriate to me.

And to be honest considering how many units in the game are equipped with bolters I'd argue that the weapon is the probably the most common one in the entire 40k universe.

Astartes are overrepresented in the hobby compared to Lore. There Should be more Grey Knights then Astartes I think.

The IG Flashlight might be more common then the Bolter.

Maybe give to bolters a -1AP on a 6 to wound.

It is in between 0AP and -1AP.
And it is that granularity that most are searching in a D6 system

 Manchild 1984 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Bolters at AP-1 would be OP assuming units that carry those keep the same points cost. But then they'd be overpriced, to the point that no one would bring them anyway .

Jumping from AP0 and AP-1 is a big deal, not easy to balance, especially on weapons that can be spammed. Flat AP0 and AP-1 for 1-2 for SM seems very appropriate to me.

And to be honest considering how many units in the game are equipped with bolters I'd argue that the weapon is the probably the most common one in the entire 40k universe.

Astartes are overrepresented in the hobby compared to Lore. There Should be more Grey Knights then Astartes I think.

The IG Flashlight might be more common then the Bolter.

It's not just astartes and grey knights. Sororitas and chaos SM use bolters too.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Reading all the bolter-porn has made you go blind.

Gee, what a brilliant reply. Totally not childish ad-personam devoid of any argument or semblance of thought

Maybe if you read anything but straw porn, whatever that is, you'd notice all the laughably and brokenly inflated xeno guns. AP -1 bolters would be problematic in Index era. Now, that we have orkstodes, all the comically OP Tau/Eldar/DE guns, and a lot of xeno infantry buffed from GEQ stats to about MEQ? Giving bolter S5 AP-2 and rapid fire 2 would be just bringing it to parity to some of the above gak - which is sad, the inflation should never have happened to begin with.

The fact the bolter is now less effective against orks than a lasgun is beyond idiotic and a proof how much constant stat and damage pumping (to be fair, SM are also guilty of it with stupid W2 buff to squats) broke the game and fluff into pieces.

Lorewise, they'd probably be S5 -2 save. But neither marines, power armour or bolters have ever been close to their power in the lore. Keeping with practical stats for the gam, S4 -1 was appropriate.

They consistently had armour piercing properties until 8th. They were of course only really debuffed, because the primaris bolt rifles had to be superior.

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Reading all the bolter-porn has made you go blind.

Gee, what a brilliant reply. Totally not childish ad-personam devoid of any argument or semblance of thought

Maybe if you read anything but straw porn, whatever that is, you'd notice all the laughably and brokenly inflated xeno guns. AP -1 bolters would be problematic in Index era. Now, that we have orkstodes, all the comically OP Tau/Eldar/DE guns, and a lot of xeno infantry buffed from GEQ stats to about MEQ? Giving bolter S5 AP-2 and rapid fire 2 would be just bringing it to parity to some of the above gak - which is sad, the inflation should never have happened to begin with.

The fact the bolter is now less effective against orks than a lasgun is beyond idiotic and a proof how much constant stat and damage pumping (to be fair, SM are also guilty of it with stupid W2 buff to squats) broke the game and fluff into pieces.

It takes 4.5 to 5.4 shots from a Tac Marine with a Bolter, with no outside buffs, to kill an Ork Boy outside of cover. The difference in numbers depends on whether or not Tactical Doctrine is active.
It takes 7.2 Lasgun shots from a Guardsman to kill an Ork Boy outside of cover.

Notice how the Marine is, shot per shot, more effective. They might be less points-efficient but they are better on a model-to-model basis.

Also, S5 AP-2 RF2? Really? That'd let four squads of Tactical Marines (max-sized, but still) kill a Knight in one volley.

Remove Space Marine Doctrines. Give Astartes Boltguns and Bolt Pistols AP -1. Call it a day.

Ironically SM already have troops with S5 AP-1 (and AP-2 for 1-2 turns) and 36'' range bolters. Can switch their weapons to S5 AP-2 (and AP-3 for one turn) and D2 or D3 42'' range heavy bolters. They also have T5 and 3W.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Remove Space Marine Doctrines. Give Astartes Boltguns and Bolt Pistols AP -1. Call it a day.

No AP bonus for heavy and melee weapons then?

 Blackie wrote:
Ironically SM already have troops with S5 AP-1 (and AP-2 for 1-2 turns) and 36'' range bolters. Can switch their weapons to S5 AP-2 (and AP-3 for one turn) and D2 or D3 42'' range heavy bolters. They also have T5 and 3W.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Remove Space Marine Doctrines. Give Astartes Boltguns and Bolt Pistols AP -1. Call it a day.

No AP bonus for heavy and melee weapons then?

Correct. Astartes Chainswords already have their AP -1 and it wouldn't be bad to add AP -1 to their other AP 0 melee weapons, but otherwise their non-basic weapons are fine. Astartes are famous for their bolter fire, not for being extra good with Plasmaguns.

Killing things with AP0 is abysmally bad. You can't kill anything except really weak units.
I run 10 terminators and I will often advance instead of firing at something I know I'll only do like 5 or less wounds to.

 RustyNumber wrote:
Bolters should be AP -1. They're supposed to be the elitest and bestest, why only give them super-flashlights? (I'm ONLY talking about the feel of the weapon and army compared to others, not any consideration how it fits into the current gameplay environment. As weapons used by the Super Humans Bestest Cool Bros Bolters feel like they should have basic AP.)

But then again all SMs should be powered up and costed appropriately, it has always been ridiculous how the SUPER MEGA ULTRA WARRIORS are deployed en masse on the tt like they're Imperial Guard+. But then GW does like money and selling lots of models, so would never make them play like custodes.

No, bolters are NOT supposed to be the elitest and bestest. Lascannons are far more elitist and bestest. And heavy bolters. And 100+ other weapons.

That's because if you would play this game like the fluff, A Custode model should have 1+ save, 1+ inv, 1+ FNP, 20 attacks and so on.
So, ask yourself if you'd rather play the game the way that makes it fun, or do you want to play it true to the fluff?
Plus, if you choose the fluff, then you need to decide exactöy what fluff to be true to.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

No, bolters are NOT supposed to be the elitest and bestest. Lascannons are far more elitist and bestest. And heavy bolters. And 100+ other weapons.

That's because if you would play this game like the fluff, A Custode model should have 1+ save, 1+ inv, 1+ FNP, 20 attacks and so on.
So, ask yourself if you'd rather play the game the way that makes it fun, or do you want to play it true to the fluff?
Plus, if you choose the fluff, then you need to decide exactöy what fluff to be true to.

Don't be ridiculous and strawman, we're talking about comparing standard issue anti-infantry weapons.

Yes, there needs to be a meeting point between fluff and tabletop. I'd LOVE to see SM play more like Custodes or Grey Knights, instead of Super Imperial Guard. But as it stands having the ultra special forces that fire essentially exploding 50cal rounds with bootiful diamondanium tips not have basic AP feels naff. That's my angle of discussion, disregarding whether the entire game system has slowly crept to a point where that would be OP or whatever.

The point about needing to make Primaris ULTRA SPECIAL is also a good one. Shame GW went Primaris instead of the more obvious "eh, SMs are truescale now, we'll gradually roll out updated models also rules that make them tougher on the tt like they ought to be.

 RustyNumber wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

No, bolters are NOT supposed to be the elitest and bestest. Lascannons are far more elitist and bestest. And heavy bolters. And 100+ other weapons.

That's because if you would play this game like the fluff, A Custode model should have 1+ save, 1+ inv, 1+ FNP, 20 attacks and so on.
So, ask yourself if you'd rather play the game the way that makes it fun, or do you want to play it true to the fluff?
Plus, if you choose the fluff, then you need to decide exactöy what fluff to be true to.

Don't be ridiculous and strawman, we're talking about comparing standard issue anti-infantry weapons.

Yes, there needs to be a meeting point between fluff and tabletop. I'd LOVE to see SM play more like Custodes or Grey Knights, instead of Super Imperial Guard. But as it stands having the ultra special forces that fire essentially exploding 50cal rounds with bootiful diamondanium tips not have basic AP feels naff. That's my angle of discussion, disregarding whether the entire game system has slowly crept to a point where that would be OP or whatever.

The point about needing to make Primaris ULTRA SPECIAL is also a good one. Shame GW went Primaris instead of the more obvious "eh, SMs are truescale now, we'll gradually roll out updated models also rules that make them tougher on the tt like they ought to be.

So, if SM are Custodes, what should custodes be like? Knights?
Marines are fine as they are when it comes to actually playing the game.Them having AP would be silly in the system as it stands now. If we went back to the old AP system, they would be AP4. In the current system, they'd have to remove bolter drill or rapid fire.

I DO agree on the point of the nu-marines.

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Reading all the bolter-porn has made you go blind.

Gee, what a brilliant reply. Totally not childish ad-personam devoid of any argument or semblance of thought

Maybe if you read anything but straw porn, whatever that is, you'd notice all the laughably and brokenly inflated xeno guns. AP -1 bolters would be problematic in Index era. Now, that we have orkstodes, all the comically OP Tau/Eldar/DE guns, and a lot of xeno infantry buffed from GEQ stats to about MEQ? Giving bolter S5 AP-2 and rapid fire 2 would be just bringing it to parity to some of the above gak - which is sad, the inflation should never have happened to begin with.

The fact the bolter is now less effective against orks than a lasgun is beyond idiotic and a proof how much constant stat and damage pumping (to be fair, SM are also guilty of it with stupid W2 buff to squats) broke the game and fluff into pieces.

No, it's just proof that the previous to-wound chart was superior.

And if you want Bolters to be S5 AP-2 RF2, where would you put Pulse Rifles, Shuriken Catapults and Gauss Rifles/Blasters?

Be careful how you answer, lest my quote above apply

Bolter > Railgun imo

Problem with AP-1 bolters is that lethality is already too high and other weapons will be updated shortly after them, becoming more lethal themselves.

AP-1 on the crappiest army weapon seems inappropriate when my orks are AP0 even on their heavy bolters equivalents and the most common anti tank weapon is AP-2.

If bolters are AP-1, then heavy bolters deserve to be AP-2, etc... IMHO the only imperium weapon (and of course all its equivalents for different factions) that could get an additional pip of AP is the autocannon.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
You know, diamantine tip and everything...
Seems kind of lame that the difference between them and a lasgun is 1 str.

Seeing GW would then also up the power of primaris bolters...do we need -2 bolters in game? Or auto wound on 3+ bolters or whatever they come up with to ensure primaris bolter is superior to firstborn bolter...

You can definitely tell how spoiled marine players are when they keep complaining how they need more rules attention when CSM don't even have their 2nd wound profiles yet and at least 5 armies haven't had their armies updated for 9th edition so far. Plus I bet you they don't factor how this would translate over to things like Inferno Bolters becoming AP-3 in response.

 Blackie wrote:
MHO the only imperium weapon (and of course all its equivalents for different factions) that could get an additional pip of AP is the autocannon.

I'd argue for the Hellgun (And the Volley version). No bias whatsoever, no no no, but it was kinda noticeable for it's penetrative quality, and, at the end of they, it's still a STR 3 weapon in the end, not carried by a whole lot of things.

 alextroy wrote:
Remove Space Marine Doctrines. Give Astartes Boltguns and Bolt Pistols AP -1. Call it a day.

This.
A spade is AP 0.

 PaddyMick wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Remove Space Marine Doctrines. Give Astartes Boltguns and Bolt Pistols AP -1. Call it a day.

This.
A spade is AP 0.

Yeah. I think I'm solidly on board with that. AP-1 on bolters is only concerning when it's functionally AP-2 for half the game. So ditch doctrines , and just let bolters be AP-1. And then consider going through and ditching mechancis in the "doctrine slot" for other armies. Doctrines started out as a way of buffing marines when they were underperforming and as a way of discouraging taking allies. 9th edition fixed the latter, and a new codex fixed the former. But instead of ditching Doctrines now that they're not needed, GW has kept them around and started giving other armies a "doctrine slot" too. Which just feels a bit bloated, really.

I'd argue that most of the doctrine slot rules aren't even all that fluffy and don't add a ton to the game. (With some exceptions.)

What about primaris lovers then, they'd demand AP-2 bolters or what's the point in paying extra points for the Intercessors? Heavy bolters will be AP-2 as well. Custodes' bolt weapons also.

Then players from other factions will start demanding upgrades for their armies as well, including extra pips on S, AP and damage for their weapons. Orks for example have flat AP-1 only on S6+ weapons, not even S5 ones.

I prefer AP0 bolters but cheaper bodies than primaris or anything that carry AP-something bolters. IMHO doctrines should go without being replaced by any other buffs. SM, and all the other factions carrying bolt weapons, are fine as they are. Except CSM, but they need a whole new codex anyway.

 Blackie wrote:
What about primaris lovers then, they'd demand AP-2 bolters or what's the point in paying extra points for the Intercessors?

Frankly, they can probably just hush. Or better yet, we can roll tacticals and intercessors together so that the marine 'dex is a bit less bloated. Feeling compelled to power up marine units because their unit bloat causes them to have limited design space is a bug, not a feature.

Custodes' bolt weapons also.

Not a hill I'll die on, but fluff-appropriate custodes probably make more sense as a couple models you splash into another imperial army rather than being an army in their own right. That way, you could have a single custodes character and/or squad that can get some scary good stats/gear without feeling compelled to directly compare their statline to marines. They'd be something whose presence inspires and buffs imperials and a reasonably good set of killy options; not a thing that competes with marines and marine variants for design space.

Then players from other factions will start demanding upgrades for their armies as well, including extra pips on S, AP and damage for their weapons. Orks for example have flat AP-1 only on S6+ weapons, not even S5 ones.

As someone who plays lots of factions, we can also hush. Childish one-upmanship doesn't lend itself to good game design. Pulse rifles probably shouldn't be getting the extra AP in the new codex. My thousand sons can be happy with being AP-2 compared to marines' AP-1. My shuriken weapons could probably stand to have their AP-3 on 6s rule removed or modified. Necron gauss weapons maybe warrant a redesign as their gauss rule didn't translate very well into 8th/9th.

I prefer AP0 bolters but cheaper bodies than primaris or anything that carry AP-something bolters. IMHO doctrines should go without being replaced by any other buffs. SM, and all the other factions carrying bolt weapons, are fine as they are. Except CSM, but they need a whole new codex anyway.

Pretty much agree with all that with the exception that I'd kind of like primaris and firstborn to just fuse already.

 WisdomLS wrote:
The AP inflation in the game in 9th is a big problem, it has led to armour saves being a bit pointless and units being considered useless if they don't have an invulnerable save.
This has led to over half the factions in the game having access to army wide invuln saves.

The Ap and armour system is really good and works great if you stick to it, GW have not and thus it has become pointless.
Removing one of the best lethality/durability levers from their game design has led to the proliferation of rubbish non interactive rules like invuls, transhuman and neg 1 damage.

The AP chart should be something like this:
AP:0 All standard weapons
AP:1 Weapons particularly noted as having armour beating properties.
AP:2 Anti-tank weapons
AP:3 Very good anti-tank weapons, noted to melt infantry.
AP:4 Extraordinarily powerful weapons that can fully bypass more or less any armour.
AP:5 Magic stuff!

What kind of AP value should be assigned to a fist punch or a combat knife thrust?

 Blackie wrote:
What about primaris lovers then, they'd demand AP-2 bolters or what's the point in paying extra points for the Intercessors? Heavy bolters will be AP-2 as well. Custodes' bolt weapons also.

Then players from other factions will start demanding upgrades for their armies as well, including extra pips on S, AP and damage for their weapons. Orks for example have flat AP-1 only on S6+ weapons, not even S5 ones.

I prefer AP0 bolters but cheaper bodies than primaris or anything that carry AP-something bolters. IMHO doctrines should go without being replaced by any other buffs. SM, and all the other factions carrying bolt weapons, are fine as they are. Except CSM, but they need a whole new codex anyway.

You tell them no. These weapons are what they are. Bolt Rifles have a longer range. Auto Bolt Guns have more attacks. Stalker Bolt Rifles have more AP and Damage. Any only Astartes Boltguns are AP -1. Those carried by everyone else (even my beloved Sisters) are AP 0. Astartes do Boltguns better. 'Nuff Said.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Reading all the bolter-porn has made you go blind.

Blind wargamer here, could you not use us as the butt of the joke, please?