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In the early 1980s, complaints about violence and gore in films such as Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and Gremlins, both of which received PG ratings, refocused attention on films seen by small children and pre-teens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_film_rating_system#From_M_to_GP_to_PG

This led to the addition of the PG-13 rating which would not have been in play for ANH or ESB. ASFAIK ANH is the only one to feature blood and ESB did feature amputation, but ROTJ had neither of those. ROTS was the most graphic of all, most notably for the final duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan. It received a PG-13 rating.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
None of it graphic, but all of far from implied violence.

Thus the PG and not PG-13; it is holding back. Mal kicking a guy into an engine in Firefly was more visceral than this milquetoast violence and that was network tv.

And your point is?

I’m genuinely sorry to be rude. But this a Disney production. Not a Troma Studios production.

It’s mass market. Which means the initial violence can be blatant, the end result is always off screen.

What exactly is it that you were expecting? Boba Fisting?

As an aside it would be pretty amazing to see a Troma Star Wars but with the production values a Disney budget would afford.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What exactly is it that you were expecting? Boba Fisting?

I think the point is only this, that the pop culture iconography of Boba Fett suggests that he is a cold-blooded killer and a show about him thugging out in the seediest part of the SW galaxy seems like it could be pretty hardcore.

But of course you’re right, this is Disney+, not HBO, and the audience is not tuning in to see bare asses, incestuous romance, steaming viscera, and live flayings. In all these years since RotS, people are still clutching pearls about Anakin murdering children. I think it’s safe to say that no one really wants to see Star Wars in the key of Game of Thrones.

...

I'd watch Star Wars in the key of Game of Thrones. I'm the guy who proposed Star Wars the West Wing because I'd totally watch a show about the humdrum lives of people working in the galactic senate and how they deal with issues big small and stupid.

Just saying XD You know. As long as it's season 1-4 Gome of Thrones. The ones that weren't slowly cascading toward awfulness. Season 8 is right out.

Disney is underestimating if it thinks there isn't a market for Star Wars: Scarface sort of content. Whether they bother to make it is another matter, but I'm not sure the audience is the one pearl clutching about whether or not Star Wars can have dark content. Star Wars has had dark content (that it didn't bother trying to lighten up that is) for decades, just not on screen.

I don't think anyone is clutching pearls. It's just the drastic change in Vaders character.

While Vader is present, it's Grand Moff Tarkin who blows up Alderon. He's complicit but he is not the hand that did the deed.

The end of RotJ is Vaders redemption just by turning on his master. He gets to be a force ghost and everything.

Then we see TPM and the 10 yr old kid he was. The annoying apprentice he is in TCW. And then the sudden jump to personally murdering a room full of children. We knew vader had a hand in hunting down the remaining Jedi. We assumed that meant trained adults who could at least attempt to defend themselves. The kids is something else entirely that was never even alluded to.

People absolutely clutch pearls about Anakin and, Lance, your post is an excellent example. “He was never that evil” is silly (it has always been understood that he is indeed that evil) and really just amounts to “we didn’t need it spelled out that explicitly.” Which is the larger point. By and large, people do not want to see this kind of stuff in Star Wars, whether it’s mutilated bodies or even off-screen child murder. They certainly object to it on behalf of their own kids but, edgelords aside, they also don’t want it for themselves. Sorry, LoH, but as a dude who also wants SW CSPAN, you’re a corner case.

 Lance845 wrote:
The end of RotJ is Vaders redemption just by turning on his master.

disappointedyoda.gif

Sith turn on their masters as a matter of course. That’s not what happened in RotJ. Vader did not betray Palpatine. Anakin saved Luke. This was possible because, as Luke saw, there was still good in him — which is not to say that Anakin was suddenly free from all the evil and twisted things he had done for decades; just that there was more than just evil and that, however little the spark, it could be enough. Anakin joining Yoda and Obi-Wan as force ghosts isn’t a declaration that all three are purged of their failings; just an acknowledgement that the bad things cannot hold the good back from going forward.

See I disagree because the disconnect isn't in how evil he is but in how evil he is shown to be coupled with his redemption. The redemption in the OT with the actions we saw in the OT is a fair trade. We see the arch play out and at the end it's satisfying that Vader is now good and becomes a Force Ghost and joins Jedi Heaven or whatever.

The prequels throw the balance of the equation out of whack. And THAT is what people have a disconnect about. The redemptive act no longer balances the book with the actions we have seen.

I think you have just missed the point of RotJ. Its moral vision isn’t about paying off a debt; rather, it is about a radical and totally gratuitous love that cannot be merited. Luke loves his father, regardless of his father’s unforgivable sins, and refuses to kill him. This, rather than any philosophical abstractions, is what gets through to Anakin at last. The PT shows us that Anakin fell trying to save someone he loved; this corresponds to the OT showing us that Vader is redeemed by someone who loves him trying to save him.

I know this is going to sound edgy...but that's not my intention.

How is Anakin killing children worse than Anakin killing civilians of any age, gender, species, etc? I understand that were biologically programmed to protect children as part of basic animal need to propagate and that most cultures condition their people to protect women and children so Lucas likely knew it would induce a visceral reaction (well, I think he that, but he's an odd one) and included it for that reason. The scene was the moral equivalent of a jump scare.

There's no fair trade with the redemption. Maybe Lucas intended for Luke to have Messianic undertones. As Manchu said, he loved his father unconditionally. That's how great, for lack of a better word, Luke was and it moved Anakin enough to save his son, cast down The Emperor, and, I assume, lead to the eventual destruction of The Empire. I'm basing that on the SE scenes that were later tacked on. I don't know if that warrants Anakin getting pseudo-immortality as a Force Ghost, but...that's really not my place to decide. I think it works within a certain context beyond the limitations of human morality.

 Manchu wrote:
I think you have just missed the point of RotJ. Its moral vision isn’t about paying off a debt; rather, it is about a radical and totally gratuitous love that cannot be merited. Luke loves his father, regardless of his father’s unforgivable sins, and refuses to kill him. This, rather than any philosophical abstractions, is what gets through to Anakin at last. The PT shows us that Anakin fell trying to save someone he loved; this corresponds to the OT showing us that Vader is redeemed by someone who loves him trying to save him.

I didn't miss that point. What I am saying is that people get hung up on the killing of the kids for the reasons that I stated. It's not the killing the kids that has people "clutching the pearls". It's the scenes in RotJ in the context of killing the kids where people are like... "wtf..."

Case in point I have never seen any exchange about the kid killing that was longer than a single comment that didn't then add in getting to go to jedi heaven because he chucked the Emperor down a shaft. The 2 are linked in peoples minds. And thats where the problem comes from.

I am not saying this is how I feel. I am saying this is the trend I see. Ultimately killing some kids is less of a problem then blowing up a planet. Doesn't matter. Vader did the kid killing with his own hands and he got off easy as far anyone can see.

People are not sensitive about the singular act of kid killing. It's the whole thing.

Well, he's dead and remembered in-universe as a villain and murderer.

 Manchu wrote:
I think you have just missed the point of RotJ. Its moral vision isn’t about paying off a debt; rather, it is about a radical and totally gratuitous love that cannot be merited. Luke loves his father, regardless of his father’s unforgivable sins, and refuses to kill him. This, rather than any philosophical abstractions, is what gets through to Anakin at last. The PT shows us that Anakin fell trying to save someone he loved; this corresponds to the OT showing us that Vader is redeemed by someone who loves him trying to save him.

That sounds more about Luke than Vader. In fact, explains that way, it sounds even more like paying off a moral debt, except the person with the debt doesn't have to do much of anything other than 'be loved.' Squeeze out a few kids for cheap and easy 'redemption' later in life. Don't even have to raise or care about the little rugrats at all.

As far as philosophical abstractions go (and the idea of redemption is very much a philosophical abstraction), its pretty horrifying.

trexmeyer wrote:
The scene was the moral equivalent of a jump scare.

That is extremely well said and a very interesting concept that will have me mulling over it for a long time, no doubt.

trexmeyer wrote:
I don't know if that warrants Anakin getting pseudo-immortality as a Force Ghost, but...that's really not my place to decide. I think it works within a certain context beyond the limitations of human morality.

The force ghost thing is quite ambiguous IMO. It doesn’t seem to be quite the same as eternal salvation. Note that Obi-Wan as a force ghost retains a limited perspective and is touched by guilt, shame, fear, and the same limited moral imagination that burdened him before his physical demise. This is hardly a transcendent existence on the far side of moral conflict. I think Anakin’s appearance as a force ghost ultimately has more to do with the ambiguity of the plural/singular form of “Jedi” — the eponymous “Return of the Jedi” is not only about the prospective rebirth of the organization via Luke but also and more particularly there is a literal Jedi who returned, i.e., Anakin.

But again, Anakin returns to the Jedi fold for almost nothing. Luke saves him. He doesn't save himself. He does almost nothing.

To equate it to the Buddhist traditions it's philosophy is based on. Someone else can show you the path to enlightenment but they cannot walk that path for you. Anakin falls because of his attachments and ultimately betrays his dark master because of his attachments. He never actually follows any of the light side code. Luke nails it though. Even at risk to himself. Even when, if he has to be killed, his sister is next. He refuses to take anothers life in anger. Luke goes straight up Buddihism and Anakin falls into the same old rut, even if in the end it's for better people.

Why the feth does he get to be a ghost with Obi and Yoda?

Voss wrote:
(and the idea of redemption is very much a philosophical abstraction)

In the sense of salvation, I’d agree. But what we see in RotJ is much more immediate — Luke feels the redeeming character of his father still surviving, somehow, within the twisted and evil cyborg war criminal. The loving son is able to see that despite everything. And it is to the loving father that the son cries out to for help. In this simple, intuitive relationship, Anakin breaks out of his imprisonment within evil for a moment to do a good act, to rescue his son from death. This ought to be a very low threshold for morality (at the very least, parents owe their children care and protection) but it requires a near revolution within Vader’s heart, diseased as it has become by a lifetime of evil. Anakin is not saved by his own action; he does not in any way earn his redemption. No, it is given to him, freely, by his son. It is not all that Anakin would require, had he survived. He would need to make amends with Leia and with a million others; probably nothing could ever “pay back” all his evil deeds. That is why his redemption cannot really be merited, it has to be given to him like a gift, not like a payment or an award; it is something he does not and cannot deserve. It isn’t about intellectual abstractions, it’s about instinct and emotion.

That is the level of moral reality in Star Wars, something the prequels mostly miss — perhaps intentionally, to some extent, to point out how out of touch the Jedi Order had become by the end of the Republic. It is captured pretty well, however, by the Mandalorian. Din’s immediate connection with Grogu is not about high-minded ideals. He just immediately relates to a fellow foundling. I think Book of Boba Fett is trending in this direction, too, with Boba seeming to have an intuitive grasp on what is right. Now, whether he is actually committed to what’s right or simply leveraging the appearance of a good character for the sake of power remains to be seen.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And your point is?

I’m genuinely sorry to be rude. But this a Disney production. Not a Troma Studios production.

It’s mass market. Which means the initial violence can be blatant, the end result is always off screen.

What exactly is it that you were expecting? Boba Fisting?

You're getting to caught up in what is, at best, just meant as an illustrative point and not a literal call for those ratings. No where did I say it had to be a blood bath or a slasher movie, and there are many films in the R rating that have little to no gore but it is about the nature of the story and the people involved. Even then I explicitly stated that it wouldn't be that level anyway but that the problem is that they went to far down to where it is practically toothless and difficult to really feel invested in a story. It should be closer to the Logan Wolverine but we know that would be to much for Disney but instead of toning it down a bit they have gone closer to Super Hero Squad Wolverine.

Now mind you this is just the first episode so it might improve a bit but since it is the only one out it is the only one we can discuss.

Also to be fair to Disney making very adult things for kids isn't new or just something they have done. Wolverine, Punisher, Robocop, Rambo, Aliens, and Predator all have had toys aimed at them.

 Manchu wrote:

Voss wrote:
(and the idea of redemption is very much a philosophical abstraction)

In the sense of salvation, I’d agree. But what we see in RotJ is much more immediate — Luke feels the redeeming character of his father still surviving, somehow, within the twisted and evil cyborg war criminal. The loving son is able to see that despite everything. And it is to the loving father that the son cries out to for help. In this simple, intuitive relationship, Anakin breaks out of his imprisonment within evil for a moment to do a good act, to rescue his son from death. This ought to be a very low threshold for morality (at the very least, parents owe their children care and protection) but it requires a near revolution within Vader’s heart, diseased as it has become by a lifetime of evil. Anakin is not saved by his own action; he does not in any way earn his redemption. No, it is given to him, freely, by his son. It is not all that Anakin would require, had he survived. He would need to make amends with Leia and with a million others; probably nothing could ever “pay back” all his evil deeds. That is why his redemption cannot really be merited, it has to be given to him like a gift, not like a payment or an award; it is something he does not and cannot deserve. It isn’t about intellectual abstractions, it’s about instinct and emotion.

Yeah... I don't see that as redemptive in any sense. Luke is offering his own personal forgiveness (though ultimately, he has to beg for Vader to get out of his navel-gazing), not redemption. Seeing a stranger being brutally tortured should motivate anyone into knocking the torturer off a convenient cliff, let alone if the 'stranger' is actually the observer's own child. The whole 'still good in you' rings very hollow to me, as he was still following orders and (as far as he knew) dooming Luke to his own fate every step of the way. That he did the very bare minimum AND got to escape any consequences of his actions was an unexpected bonus. Death, for Vader, was a mercy and a release, but it had squat to do with justice or redemption. If we're going to go for practical redemption with no abstractions, its got to be about restorative justice, which Vader never bothers with. He got to kill his abuser and seeing his own fate imposed on his son (in rather heavy-handed flashes) was a motivator, but its mostly about revenge (something reinforced by the original film title).


The force ghosts are interesting, just that for all anyone knows, they're completely in Luke's head- his own personal concept that his mentors and father figures would be proud of him. It's effectively a reward for his own deeds (and achieving his own 'knighthood') when even his mentors thought he should go in and just kill in that confrontation.

---
For Boba... eh. Its too early to say, but it feels really off. What we see of him is a pretty casual killer (in Mando), and someone who has to be warned by Vader not to disintegrate his targets. He was sometimes principled as a younger man, but he seemed to have a fairly welcome relationship with the notorious gangster Jabba the Hutt. It wasn't a quick drop off and leave, he hung around the palace in a way that spoke of familiarity and indifference to the kind of crap that goes on there.

don't think it was redemption in some legalistic sense but more that his soul was redeemed. If he hadn't died I'm sure their would have been consequences to face.


As for "Seeing a stranger being brutally tortured should motivate anyone into knocking the torturer off a convenient cliff" you are referring to a guy who turned on his friends and literally killed a room full of children.

Admittedly he probably shouldn't have gotten to be a force ghost. That certainly felt unearned.

AFAIK Force Ghostism isnt a reward, it's just a learned technique that allows a Jedi to keep his consciousness coherent rather than becoming one with the force, so while there's no obvious way Anakin learned it (Qui Gon taught Yoda and Obi Wan, and presumably one or all of them taught Luke) it isn't a commentary on his worthiness.

Being a force ghost is totally mysterious.

It isn’t a delusion. Yoda can hear Obi-Wan as a force ghost as clearly as Luke.

It’s definitely not heaven. As noted above, Obi-Wan as a ghost is worried and guilty, just as he was while physically alive.

It certainly is not a reward. Anakin does not meaningfully earn it; also Yoda and Obi-Wan have their own guilty consciences.

It isn’t a Jedi technique. Despite what Yoda implies in RotS. Anakin has no time to learn it existed much less learn how to do it.

It may not be limited to Jedi. Han Solo may have manifested as one in RoS, but who really knows.

 Azreal13 wrote:
AFAIK Force Ghostism isnt a reward, it's just a learned technique that allows a Jedi to keep his consciousness coherent rather than becoming one with the force, so while there's no obvious way Anakin learned it (Qui Gon taught Yoda and Obi Wan, and presumably one or all of them taught Luke) it isn't a commentary on his worthiness.

I believe that is correct but it doesn't change that there isn't any explanation of how Vader learned it or that it just felt a bit cheap having him be there with the other ghosts. Being pulled away from the dark side at the end was a good enough story beat but to then just say screw it and let him be a force ghost out of left field seems undeserved from a narrative point of view.

Best I can figure is, people and events can make impressions in the energy field of the Force. Maybe some learn to do this. Maybe it just happens at other times. In the old EU, Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun were darksiders who persisted after death as spirits. Furthermore, Palpatine devised a way to transfer his spirit between bodies. Also, certain areas (like the cave near Yoda’s home on Dagobah) were said to be particularly “thick” with the Force. And of course there is the whole idea that Anakin himself was a “vergence” in the Force.

Chapter 2 is up a few minutes early!

I’m strapped in and ready to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, I suspect this might be another divisive episode, but I bloody loved it!

 BertBert wrote:
I Props to the composer who adapted the cantina theme, it was recognisable but still a fresh take.

We can always use more fresh cantina goo songs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man, they go Hard on the white savior and noble savage tropes in this one. All we need is for Fett to marry the chiefs daughter.

Also, was that Black Krrsantan or just a generic Wookie we think? Like it’s gotta be Krrsantan.

The Wookie looks good. The Hutt litter is painfully stupid. In a universe of robots, Wookies, Gamorreans, hover technology, etc, you decide to have at least 2 tons of Hutt lard carried by 16~ skinny guys on a litter that is warping under their weight? C'mon now.

The train looting scene is straight out of Lawrence of Arabia.

I imagine it’s intended to be impractical as a sign of power. An extreme show of dominance, like the dumb living furniture stuff that shows up occasionally.

 AduroT wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I Props to the composer who adapted the cantina theme, it was recognisable but still a fresh take.

We can always use more fresh cantina goo songs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man, they go Hard on the white savior and noble savage tropes in this one. All we need is for Fett to marry the chiefs daughter.

Also, was that Black Krrsantan or just a generic Wookie we think? Like it’s gotta be Krrsantan.

White saviour seems an odd accusation considering Temuera Morrison isn’t white.

Yes, but this episode is heavily inspired by The Last Samurai, Dances with Wolves, Lawrence of Arabia, and who knows what else.