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I'm fascinated by how reluctant they are to have a present day Boba in a show named after him, if he appears at all.

I'm enjoying the show but I can't say I understand where they're going with it.

 Jadenim wrote:
I have to say, the last couple of episodes have felt more like “Tales of the New Republic”. And you know what, I’m fine with that. I don’t think anyone has fully explored what streaming can allow you to do differently with media, but with Mando/BoB and the MCU series, I think Disney are starting to. I would love to see a sandbox series that has a whole stock of characters, organisations and locations that can be used to tell different stories. Call them books, chapters, whatever, but this month Tales of the New Republic is a set of 25 minute wham-bam adventures with Din-Djarin on various bounties. Next month the same show can be a couple of movie length, darker episodes with Ashoka hunting down imperial remnants experimenting to clone Palpatine, etc. etc. Technology like the Volume and the CGI they’ve got can only help this.

A dedicated anthology show would be cool not the least because they could fill the huge blank space that is the New Republic. I'm interested in seeing it on screen, but I have a feeling they're reluctant to leave the Outer Rim's proven setting for the center of politics because, well, I seem to remember that wasn't all that well received when Lucas did it. With an anthology show they can have lots of space adventures as the main theme but occasionally branch out into different genres.

 Graphite wrote:
Yeah, it's... weird. Like, Old Jedi would have been "Darth fell to the dark side because of his attachment to Padme!" But, I mean, if you'd just let him have a normal relationship that he wasn't hiding, that's something Palp couldn't have exploited. Hell, they could have gone to the Jedi Academy ATM on Corusant, got some cash and straight up bought his mum. That would have saved a whole world of trouble!

The Jedi seem fine with having friends (even non Jedi) - Obi Wan seems to have pals all over the place. The guy who runs the dinner, for example.

Heck, Alec Guinness' "And he was a good friend" in ANH could retrospectively look like "we kind of screwed this up".

"You must have no attachments" is a way to get weird, broken people.

Heck, Luke's "Oh Noes Ben has the Dark Side choppy choppy wait what am I doing" would likely be avoided and thinking "this is my nephew" before "this is my student"

I wonder if that's what Ashoka meant when she said that he was like his father. There's conflict in Luke between doing what he thinks is right, and doing what he's been told I'd right.

(Also, hope the two of them had plenty of time for a long off screen talk. There are a lot of blanks Ashoka can fill in about Luke's family)

Part of the issue is Star Wars, and Lucas', insistence on tin can philosophy. The EU, for all its flaws, tried to flesh this gak out and create something with more depth. For whatever reason (well not whatever reason Lucas just wasn't that bright IMO) the official media tends to insist on the Jedi being these wise old guys who say wise old guy things but there's no consistency to a lot of it. It's all incoherent platitudes that form the pastiche of a philosophy rather than an actual philosophy that the story can work with. Virtually all Star Wars content has suffered from it, especially because official mainstream entries in the franchise constantly insist on it.

 LordofHats wrote:


Part of the issue is Star Wars, and Lucas', insistence on tin can philosophy. The EU, for all its flaws, tried to flesh this gak out and create something with more depth. For whatever reason (well not whatever reason Lucas just wasn't that bright IMO) the official media tends to insist on the Jedi being these wise old guys who say wise old guy things but there's no consistency to a lot of it. It's all incoherent platitudes that form the pastiche of a philosophy rather than an actual philosophy that the story can work with. Virtually all Star Wars content has suffered from it, especially because official mainstream entries in the franchise constantly insist on it.

What if they were basically a whole bunch of lazy wizards... They could have studied lots and thought stuff through, or they could sashay along with a glowing sword having illegitimate kids (come on, that muppet was doing the wise act to get people into bed). The deeper mysteries are basically they let you in on the secret that the wise sayings were taken from wookiepedia and don't rock the boat if you want an easy life...

 Jadenim wrote:

Graphite wrote:Those Jawas got themselves a SERIOUS hood ornament

Spoiler:

You can only choose one

Only the Sith deal in absolutes

You've really got to get out of this way of thinking, Jedi

I did love the pimped sand crawler!

Spoiler:

I’m wondering whether it’s a trap/trick by Luke; a false choice to teach a lesson? I haven’t read any of the old EU, but my impression was that Luke changed the Jedi teachings to recognise that trying to deny all attachment was what led to Anakin’s downfall. And it was Luke’s attachment to his father and sister that allowed him to turn Vader back.”

I think the problem is that jedi are supposed to think in terms of the "greater good", and that familial attachments are felt to warp that, to be something that the force user would value over almost anything else. thats part of the point of taking force sensitive children at a very young age, to limit their ability to form attachments outside the order that would overrule their duties to the "greater good", ie the whole "fear leads to anger" routine.

i dont think the choice is false, i think it might that luke is testing to see if grogu is too attached to his parent figure, in the same way that Anakin was, and if he chooses the armour, he would let him go rather than force him onto a path grogu doesnt want to be on. I think thats the point the old jedi got wrong, it was a order run by people who'd never grown up outside the system they were in, and didnt really understand how to properly deal with a person who did have those outside attachments.

It occurred to me watching this last episode that maybe the titular Mandalorian in "The Mandalorian" may not actually be Din Djarin after all....

The idea at least in theory is that in the grand scheme of things, attachments will be used against you and compromise your decisions. 99% of the time its fine, but then that one bad day instantly turns them into genocidal monsters that enslave the galaxy. It's worth noting that this is entirely why Anakin is too old in TPM. You got to kidnap them as babies so you can make sure they don't ever have any hopes and dreams beyond what is trained into them. There's probably a good comparison to be made to TFA Stormtroopers, but neither side of that is capable of making the bridge.

The main problem with all of this is that it doesn't gel at all with the way we see the grown Jedi in the series. This kind of gets handwaved as Qui-Gon being a bit of a trouble maker, but we never see the kind of zealotry in the old Jedi that we're constantly told is necessary. Din's code is more akin to how the Jedi should have been if they were really raised the way Anakin apparently should have been, but none of the stories have worked that way.

Mostly every failing in this department comes back to the gamification of the Force. Light Side vs Dark Side points in the early RPGs. It's created a bunch of rules around all this stuff that's reallyi supposed to be more character driven. It really doesn't help that we've never gotten a great depiction or exploration of the Dark Side. Mostly just "oh boy, here I go killing again" followed by a redemption arc.

Honestly, the issue is that dogmatic and cloistered societies are boring as feth. That's literally a big part of the point. Such groups basically give up anything interesting (or are supposed to) to focus on some higher cause or calling. They're by design devoid of personality.

They make for very bad story telling and very unreliable characters which is why pretty much no Jedi ever actually acts that way except when its time to have some drama about it and then it stands out like a sore thumb. Just look at 40k honestly. Space Marines are sometimes compared to indoctrinated maniacs with no will of their own, but they never act that way when we read about them. In the good Space Marine books they have lots of personality and are driven by basic conflicts about duty, brotherhood, and honor and all that. They're actually interesting when done right and so are the Jedi. The Jedi just have this instance around them that they shouldn't be doing all the stuff that makes them interesting to watch, which is weird when they all go off and do that stuff anyway. The sheer number of affairs in the old Jedi order are so numerous the idea that they didn't have a secret support group for one another is kind of shocking. Anakin was hardly the only one.

You'd think they'd focus less on having no attachments and more of being able to detach when necessary, like functional professionals.

I'll throw some flowers on the cinematography of the last two episodes (which also apply to the Mandalorian). I found myself surprised and rather amazed at how well the various Mandalorian characters, especially Din, can convey emotions all the while being completely faceless all the time. I would have never thought you could make that work, but they did.

Also was Luke made aware that a person can be both Jedi and Mandalorian at the same time? Should someone tell him that? The Armorer seems to have gotten it pretty quickly, but not him.

epronovost wrote:
I'll throw some flowers on the cinematography of the last two episodes (which also apply to the Mandalorian). I found myself surprised and rather amazed at how well the various Mandalorian characters, especially Din, can convey emotions all the while being completely faceless all the time. I would have never thought you could make that work, but they did.

Also was Luke made aware that a person can be both Jedi and Mandalorian at the same time? Should someone tell him that? The Armorer seems to have gotten it pretty quickly, but not him.

maybe, but i think this is just part of the writers plan to allow Grogu to survive the destruction of the academy/death of the jedi by having him technically not "be a jedi", so they can bring him back in whenever they get round to writing stuff set in the sequel era.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

Spoiler:

Grogu chooses both.

People in real life contain a multitude of histories, faiths and cultures within themselves.

But in Star Wars, people are binary. Its like a second language to them.

I still maintain they won’t let him have the lightsaber because it would be too hard to convincingly animate him using it. Hell just levitate and crush things with the force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wow.. how good was it to see a young Mark Hamill on screen again in that role? Incredible effects, I actually stopped looking for faults with it after a few minutes, which I think shows that it was a success.
Lovely to have baby Yoda back - and that little suit of armour is the cutest thing I will see this year.
And I think that is the first time in the series that they piped the original Williams score into an episode when Luke & co appeared? Really nicely done.

PS - Does anyone else thing the Mandalorians are ridiculously strict with their creed? So you took out the biggest baddie, restored all of these fabled weapons? Yes but did you take your helmet off?
No wonder they have only three members (I guess now two) left.
"Did you use any word with the letter L in the past two days? Oh you did? You are no longer one of us. This is the way"

PPS - Jennifer Beals noooooo!

I'd have to rewatch Mandalorian but I think Bo-Katan even explicitly calls them an extremist sect. I'm cool with how they act, actually. I prefer crazy cultists that stick to their creed over extremists that conveniently learn and unlearn moderation as plot or convenience demands.

This is the way.

And yeah, we now have an answer to why the Hutts didn't want war with the Pykes. It must be a Hutt's worst nightmare to have their favorite restaurant blown up. RIP hot yellow Twi'lek waitress.

On a general note, how do people feel about the direction they took with Boba's character in this series? Have they made him too much of a good guy?

I know there is no way Disney would do it, but I will always wonder if it might have been better with an absolute A-hole of a main character who was disintegrating people left, right and centre? Rather than a slightly different new series of Mando?

(Or was the thing meant to be that he was 're-born' from the Sarlac pit?)

I was reading this (now quite old) article by Black Library's ADB - about how much of a bad-ass Boba was in the original series. Does make you think there was an opportunity lost..
https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2016/01/09/we-need-to-talk-about-captain-phasma-and-boba-fett/

 Pacific wrote:
On a general note, how do people feel about the direction they took with Boba's character in this series?

I'd like to see how they end Book of Boba before I form an opinion on it. As in, I'd like to see if they had any direction in mind at all or if they just went "lol, snorts lizards, gets delusions of grandeur, let's see what happens".

Previously he's been shown to be relatively competent and working towards a goal. I don't think it's fair to judge Book of Boba Boba before we see if he accomplishes anything and if that success can be attributed to him.

I say relatively competent because you have to judge him by his age and experience, with stories spanning from the Clone Wars to the Galactic Civil War. Adult Boba is an experienced bounty hunter who knows his stuff. Younger Boba is learning his trade but not fully prepared yet. Even younger Boba is a mess who can't reconcile his quest for revenge with the cost it may incur. There's a plausible progression there. His showing in Book of Boba should slot into that somehow which, for the time being, I don't think it does very overtly. You have to give him the benefit of the doubt to see the same character, but like I said, that's based on an incomplete picture.

 Pacific wrote:
Have they made him too much of a good guy?

What's good about him? He's a crime boss. He's possibly one of the nicer crime bosses, but he still plans on exploiting others for his own gain using criminal methods. I find it hard to see that as being a good guy.

To turn that around, what was bad about bounty hunter Boba? He's just doing his job to make a living. There's no malice in it. He's probably best described as amoral due to the mercenary nature of his work, but every instance of it we see on screen, he works for the legitimate ruling body at that time and place and the only thing that makes him good or bad is how his employers are defined and how that reflects on him. As in, he works for the Empire/Vader. Empire/Vader are evil, so Boba has to be evil for opting to work for them. By profession, he's simply neutral and a degree of law-abiding.

 Pacific wrote:
I was reading this (now quite old) article by Black Library's ADB - about how much of a bad-ass Boba was in the original series. Does make you think there was an opportunity lost..

ADB is right to call out Boba's competence and explain how it's established, but a lot of that article chooses one of several plausible interpretations of the scenes and talks them up through manipulative use of language. Which isn't surprising, coming from an author. If ADB cared to do so, he could easily change the dismissive characterization of Phasma for a more charitable view.

Boba's competence in Empire Strikes Back is not in doubt, but his alleged badassery is a matter of interpretation and how much you want to project on the character.

 Pacific wrote:
On a general note, how do people feel about the direction they took with Boba's character in this series? Have they made him too much of a good guy?

I know there is no way Disney would do it, but I will always wonder if it might have been better with an absolute A-hole of a main character who was disintegrating people left, right and centre? Rather than a slightly different new series of Mando?

Mando has a massive body count in most episodes. And doesn't chase droids. Just shoots them.

 Pacific wrote:
On a general note, how do people feel about the direction they took with Boba's character in this series? Have they made him too much of a good guy?

First, he's not a good guy. He's navel gazing about crime rather than doing it, but passivity isn't morally good. He vaguely avenges the tribe through some flyover bombardment, but beyond being on a checklist, it had no real emotion attached.

As for his character, it honestly doesn't feel like he has one. He feels like a poser- he adopted the Tusken culture because it was convenient for survival, when it was gone, he immediately went to 'get ship' and somehow 'be crime lord' but clearly has no idea how to do that. He's got a fancy chair and a useful assistant, but that's it. At this point I want Fennec to shoot him in the back of the head and go off for her own show. Whatever potential Boba had as a character (IMO, not much) they've completely squandered it. They couldn't even make it five episodes into his own show!

(Or was the thing meant to be that he was 're-born' from the Sarlac pit?)

He has at least two if not three rebirths during the flashbacks (Sarlacc, nose lizard, burning the remains of his 'adopted people' and going back to crime). Oh, and finally emerging from the bacta tank when he's actually healed of... whatever injury that was. As rebirths go, they're... all pretty meaningless and empty.

I have read the Boba Fett trilogy back in the day. His character was all about making "business" while travelling around in Slave1. The trilogy in question was also pretty low on action as I remember as Boba Fett used his reputation as being dangerous to get leverage in any negotiations with his customers. So I expected him doing one assignment at a time in each episode in a different place like a true mercenary/bounty hunter would operate.

Yesterday I have seen the critique of the Angry Joe Show and I have to agree with the youtuber. Making Boba Fett take a backseat to another character in his OWN show is a blatant error. Imagine watching "Love & Marriage" in the 80s and instead of Al Bundy & his family doing their shenanigans suddenly Bill Cosby shows up hijacking the show. It would be a gigantic clusterfeth and thus nobody with common sense would even think about doing such a thing. So what were the writers thinking or didn´t they think at all?!

* Spoilers for Book of Boba Fett *

Man, the last two episodes were a crazy ride! We essentially got just a weird portion of “The Mandalorian Season 3” served up in the middle of a different show! But never-mind that for a moment, I want to talk about what I think/hope the show is leading up to, and the somewhat interesting take on religion that MAY be taking place here.

(Second spoiler warning. Also this bit is a more than a little silly, and VERY long-winded. You have been doubly warned!)

Okay, so firstly, in the second most-recent episode there was an extended bit about the surviving Mandalorian cultists (hey, I calls it like I see it, they are religious extremists who the other Mandalorians think are weird). Our protagonist Mando is at first hanging out with them, trying to fit in like he used to, but to my eyes something is a little off.

He's just not that into it.

He keeps questioning bits of dogma like the refusal to see Grogu (baby Yoda) as a true “foundling” and all that. Eventually, big-boy Mandalorian decides that a fight to the death over a sharp glow-stick makes total sense with a society of only three people, and so that's exactly what he does. Mando wins the fight, but again: there is something off.

So the cultist boss chimes in with the whole: “Hey, everyone is still in our cool cult right? Everyone has followed all the super-specific orders that we wrote down on the sacred back of a McDonalds place-mat, right?” And of course: big-boy Mandalorian is like “Yo, I'm totally in. I never took this helmet off for any reason!” but Mando, he's like: “Well... gak. Look, I had a good reason but-”

Boss lady isn't having it.

She's like: “You out of the cult, B.” And Mando is like: “But that's whack! I loved my little muppet son and he wanted to see me gob before I left him forever in muppet lasersword summer-camp!”

But boss lady isn't having it.

So Mando is clearly frustrated and asks if there isn't anything he could do. Boss lady is like: “Sure, you can go do this super-specific cult ritual in a place that got blowed up forever ago.” Mando is like: “Dude, that doesn't work anymore.” Boss lady is like: “I don't know what to tell you, sounds like a YOU problem to me.”

The point of all this is that Mando seems to seriously question his ultra traditional religious cult upbringing and its completely nonsense inflexible rules. We, as the audience, get to see that: Hey, those Mandalorian cultists are kinda jerks!

Next up: we get to see everyone's favorite muppet-baby at his super-cool lasersword summer-camp where he hangs out with PS3 Luke Skywalker and eats frogs (So, you know, a very normal summer-camp).

Muppet-baby is just chilling, eating frogs, doing some sick jumps using space-magic, that sort of thing. Then his space-dad comes to stop by and say hi, and drop off a sweet little space-sweater that he got from an artisan craftsman at a ren-faire and just, you know, really thinks his little muppet-son would dig. He runs into a problem though: the Jedi are having none of that noise.

Instead, they are sticking to THEIR ultra traditional religious cult ideals, complete with nonsense inflexible rules. Only their rules SPECIFICALLY are like: “And no sweet gifts from your space-dad when you are in lasersword summer-camp.” Mando has a hard time of this. First there was his own stupid cultists, then there are this completely NEW stupid cultists. He's visibly sad, (well, I mean, helmet so... maybe?) but what's he gonna do, beat up camp counselor lady-squid-head and PS3 Luke Skywalker just so he can say hi to his son? Talk about ruining arts and crafts day!

After Mando leaves, PS3 Luke Skywalker takes baby Yoda aside and is like: “Okay, pop quiz hotshot, who do you love more: the dude who is teaching you sweet jumps and lasersword fighting or your totally awesome space-dad?” baby Yoda can't talk, obviously, but we just KNOW he is saying:

“For truth, good sir, tis an unfair distinction and an arbitrary one. Upon the one hand, I was raised in ye old ideals of noble space-magic by the masters of old, and yon tutelage, though short in time, has had profound impact upon my very soul. Whereas, upon the other hand, I have my undying love and loyalty to that totally awesome shiny space-dad who saved my life and took me upon the best summer vacation road trip I've ever had. Also, that shiny space-sweater tis dope. Truly, tis a choice between the fire and the flame, and I am most vexed that ye, who profess towards wisdom, would asketh such of me.”

That's where the episode ends.

So, my takeaway here is this: both cults suck, and we, the audience, are supposed to be starting to understand this. Clearly, neither Mando nor Grogu fit into their cults anymore and wish to find a more reasonable alternative, as well as a family of equals to whom they share a bond. Enter Boba Fett and his ever growing crew of “Super Cool Action Figure Dudes” (at least, I THINK that's what his organization is called...)

Think about it: Boba doesn't fit in with being a bounty-hunter anymore, and his right-hand lady is clearly somewhat fed up with being an assassin. Big boy wookie (I think his name is Stan,) got tossed aside by his last employer and may or may not owe Boba a life debt at this point (Wookie culture is weird that way, and it's kind of hard to understand him when he monologues as I only speak Wookie at a third grade level). The point is, as Steve Zissou once said, “They are a pack of strays”.

More than that: they also represent nuance in a world/universe that traditionally lacks it.

Boba Fett doesn't run his crime empire like a crime empire. He's way too nice, talks way too much, and has a habit of helping people out instead of killing them. Same with Mando. Grogu is a Jedi who isn't a Jedi because he sees first hand that any organization that specifically cuts you off from your family for no good reason is pretty damn suspect. Do you see where this is going?

I think that Boba and crew are going to become something like a third alternative to the traditional Star-Wars dynamic of black v. white, good v. evil. I think that Grogu will become a force user, but not a Jedi specifically. I think that he is going to even train others in the use of the force, but do it in a way different from the traditional religious extremist method. But, do you want to know the kicker to the whole thing?

I think “The Book of Boba Fett” is a reference to the Jedi sacred texts. Specifically, a NEW sacred text, written after these events (possibly by later-day Grogu). Think about it: those books/stories are always referenced as being about specific people, and teaching specific lessons. I think that this one is about nuance, and a middle path. It also makes sense as to where we are culturally (speaking meta for a moment,) where the rampant partisan-ism of our world has seemingly reduced everything to black and white, good and evil, my team and your team. Introducing a third way here, and now, is an AWESOME way to keep the franchise going and introduce new concepts, ideas, and cultural relevance.

They can even have it so that, when the franchise eventually addresses the “new era” of the latest trilogy again, they can introduce a more compelling and nuanced form of Jedi... and quite possibly an “all growed up” version of Grogu... now, more than ever, a new version of Yoda.

So that's my theory. That's where I think this is going. That is my hope.

(Regardless though: new Star-Wars TV is rad!)

Thanks for reading, and let me know what you think!

 Strg Alt wrote:
Making Boba Fett take a backseat to another character in his OWN show is a blatant error.

Nah.

well, you have a better take than i do, which was going down a rather cynical route of "they only got boba on board for the mado S2 part by promising him his own show, so they are fulfilling contractual obligations while trying to advance the plot they are ACTAULY intrested in".

xerxeskingofking wrote:
well, you have a better take than i do, which was going down a rather cynical route of "they only got boba on board for the mado S2 part by promising him his own show, so they are fulfilling contractual obligations while trying to advance the plot they are ACTAULY intrested in".

I doubt it was just a contractual thing. Boba was always going to get his own feature. It was originally going to be a movie trilogy, as was the Kenobi series, but they were put on the backburner when Solo did so badly, and then resurrected as series when the Mando showed that D+ series could work as a viable thing.

If anything, I'd say it's more likely that Filoni and co weren't particularly interested in the character but management wanted the show to happen, so they've done the bare minimum to weave it into the ongoing narrative with the Mandalorian and the other (more interesting) upcoming shows. It's the Spiderman 3 of the Star Wars Galaxy.

Oh neat, just read that Luke’s voice from the last episode was entirely by computer. They fed it a whole bunch of recordings of him from that age and it synthed up all the lines.

That is cool! ...a bit weird considering he is still alive... but it does make more sense than old Mark trying to sound like young Mark.

I mean, it would make more sense to let the current actor act in some capacity, and not simply be a puppet choked under creepy and disturbing layers of another actor.

Does this mean they're going to bury whats-his-name under layers of Alec Guiness for the Obi-Wan show?

Ewan McGregor? I doubt it, given we've already seen him be various ages of Kenobi.

 AduroT wrote:
Oh neat, just read that Luke’s voice from the last episode was entirely by computer. They fed it a whole bunch of recordings of him from that age and it synthed up all the lines.

Heh. the marvels of modern technology.

 Dysartes wrote:
Ewan McGregor? I doubt it, given we've already seen him be various ages of Kenobi.

Yeah, I'd expect them to bring back Alec Guiness if they don't want to leave all the force ghost shenanigans to the wrinkled green fortune cookie. Ewan McGregor will do just fine for a Tatooine show.

leerm02 wrote:
That is cool! ...a bit weird considering he is still alive... but it does make more sense than old Mark trying to sound like young Mark.

Considering the magnitude of difference in his tone from his 20 something youth to now, that's not a surprise. It would be hilarious to have a young Luke talking with the voice of a grouchy old man.

I was trying to figure out what they'd done. It definitely didn't synch up with Hamill's current voice and they haven't seemed interested in a sound alike for the character. It kind of had a slightly unnatural cadence that works pretty well with Jedi wisdom speak, but was pretty impressive knowing how it worked. Hamill has been pretty open to the tech when asked about it in the past too, which is probably why they're pushing it with his character.