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 Arbitrator wrote:
So will we be doing this again?

7th edition: "The game is too bloated!"
8th edition: "OMG GW are listening, I love Nu-GW and 8th is back to basics!"
9th edition: "The game is too bloated!"
10th edition: "OMG GW are listening, I love Nu-GW and 10th is back to basics!"

You forgot the transition from 3rd to 4th (or was it 4th to 5th?), where we got rid of all the White Dwarfs we were carrying around for the extra rules in them (Minor Psychic Powers, anyone?) and streamlined down to fairly simple codexes before starting to build up again.

 herjan1987 wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:

Practically everyone I know plays something else or just does the painting because man whoever is in charge of 40k just does not know how to make games. Gotta give props to Phil Kelly for not having this nonsense in Age of Sigmar.

Are you sure??? Remember this year AoS players lost free digital warscrolls. So I wouldnt be so confident that this wont be crawling into AoS aswell.

Oh, wow. I didn't realize they'd pull the AoS warscrolls off the mini's pages. Glad I got copies before they went all humbug on giving out free stuff. That's just lousy of them to pull those.

 Baragash wrote:

 CMLR wrote:
GW really want their playerbase to start playing AoS, until they start doing the same to them.

Wish to be a LotR player right now.

The $ per page of standard rules for LotR is pretty high, each book only gives you a handful of pages you can use in regular/pick-up/tournament games (or probably more accurately, it's been declining over the course of time.

Although it's true that the supplements only add a few new profiles/army lists each, for the time being the vast majority of armies will require only the core rulebook and a single book for your army's profiles (the latter of which also covers a dozen other armies, thus requiring few additional purchases if expanding your collection), and that's it. And those books have retained their full value (the supplements expand, instead of replace) for about 3.5 years now, with a good few years of life left in them too (something that really shouldn't be as unusual as it is...). Plus, it even appears to be written with the idea of making a good, stable game, rather than something that'll be thrown out after a year of use anyway...

 Stormonu wrote:

 herjan1987 wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:

Practically everyone I know plays something else or just does the painting because man whoever is in charge of 40k just does not know how to make games. Gotta give props to Phil Kelly for not having this nonsense in Age of Sigmar.

Are you sure??? Remember this year AoS players lost free digital warscrolls. So I wouldnt be so confident that this wont be crawling into AoS aswell.

Oh, wow. I didn't realize they'd pull the AoS warscrolls off the mini's pages. Glad I got copies before they went all humbug on giving out free stuff. That's just lousy of them to pull those.

They pulled them off the pages because they're available for free through the App and they want people to use that instead.

 Baragash wrote:

 CMLR wrote:
GW really want their playerbase to start playing AoS, until they start doing the same to them.

Wish to be a LotR player right now.

The $ per page of standard rules for LotR is pretty high, each book only gives you a handful of pages you can use in regular/pick-up/tournament games (or probably more accurately, it's been declining over the course of time.

The MESBG supplements tend to cover very specific periods/armies which probably won't be seeing another splat book for a long time, if ever. At least if you buy an MESBG supplement you can be pretty confident you'll be getting a long use out of it. They're more comparable to setting books from something like Bolt Action (there's only so many Omaha books you can get away with).

 Oryza Sativa wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
So will we be doing this again?

7th edition: "The game is too bloated!"
8th edition: "OMG GW are listening, I love Nu-GW and 8th is back to basics!"
9th edition: "The game is too bloated!"
10th edition: "OMG GW are listening, I love Nu-GW and 10th is back to basics!"

You forgot the transition from 3rd to 4th (or was it 4th to 5th?), where we got rid of all the White Dwarfs we were carrying around for the extra rules in them (Minor Psychic Powers, anyone?) and streamlined down to fairly simple codexes before starting to build up again.

first halve of 3rd edition: core armies are too weak compared to those with a Codex pls update them
2nd halve of 3rd edition: powercreep is real!
4th Edition: GW is listening and get the stuff back in line, and they are releasing the mini-supplements for fluff armies
2nd halve of 4th: GW needs to do Erratas to update similar units, it cannot be that a Marine Rocket Launcher has different rules for different chapters
5th: GW is listening and finally get their stuff together
2nd halve of 5th: WTF are you doing?
6th: WTF are you doing?
7th: this could have been an Errata for 6th, but finally GW is listening
2nd halve of 7th: see quote above

Hey Siri, insert another pointess rant along the lines of "I'm so happy I switched to KT21". And beatbox.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Huh. I thought biannual meant every 2 years like bimonthly.

But in fact it means twice a year.

Biennial means every 2 years.

English sucks sometimes.

English Words may suck sometimes, but it's a way better game than 40k. Because when the Word People occasionally release a new edition of their Book of Words, unlike GW's new editions the new Book of Words doesn't throw out half of the old words and replace them with a random combination of new, antiquated and foreign words just to sell new books. It's wild how a Book of Words released this year is like 99% in line with a Book of Words released twenty years ago, or forty years ago. It's a very inexpensive game to maintain compared to new, partially incompatible editions of 40k released every three years.

The Word People also don't release Book of Words supplements every half year to make you learn about all those new words people use that seem like English Words, but really aren't. Probably because Book of Words: English Words But Not! supplements would just be compilations of house rules, and we all know how deeply distrustful parts of the English Words player base are of house rules and how they insist that everyone only uses words straight out of the Book of Words. House rules like that are only ever made official in a new edition of the Book of Words after years of thorough playtesting. We could only wish for that kind of prudence from GW.

Although English is far more long lived than 40k, and generally a safe game to get into, it's not perfect. The Word People cannot dismiss practical considerations any more than GW's designers. Even in English, a number of words are eventually rotated out of the game and put in a legacy category, like Legends for 40k, that effectively sees them removed from the game. English is similar to 40k in that you are well advised to invest in a collection rather than a build, so as not to get too attached to any single game piece and sound like a grognard when you tell the youngsters that English used to be real gay back in your day, but these days it has lost much of its excitement.

Sorry to come into a 40k thread and talk about the virtues of a different game. If you like 40k despite its flaws, I can totally respect that. Have fun in whichever way you like. I just want to highlight that there are alternative games out there that are fun, inexpensive and don't leave you disenfranchised after coming back from a break of a couple of years. Doesn't have to be English Words either. There's a fair few fun games out there to choose from.

Also "bimonthly" means both twice a month or once every two months, depending on the context.

Somehow still less confusing than some of the rules GW writes

 Baragash wrote:

 CMLR wrote:
GW really want their playerbase to start playing AoS, until they start doing the same to them.

Wish to be a LotR player right now.

The $ per page of standard rules for LotR is pretty high, each book only gives you a handful of pages you can use in regular/pick-up/tournament games (or probably more accurately, it's been declining over the course of time.

Then again need to have anything but core book and army book is pretty darn low.

@Geifer - Exalted! I think the English book of words game might benefit from an overarching rules authority like the German league maintains

I get irrationally irritated every time someone refers to a 40K book as “DLC”. It reminds me how annoyed I was when they stopped doing digital releases for their main systems. These book are literally not downloadable!

 Oryza Sativa wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
So will we be doing this again?

7th edition: "The game is too bloated!"
8th edition: "OMG GW are listening, I love Nu-GW and 8th is back to basics!"
9th edition: "The game is too bloated!"
10th edition: "OMG GW are listening, I love Nu-GW and 10th is back to basics!"

You forgot the transition from 3rd to 4th (or was it 4th to 5th?), where we got rid of all the White Dwarfs we were carrying around for the extra rules in them (Minor Psychic Powers, anyone?) and streamlined down to fairly simple codexes before starting to build up again.

Nothing beats the start of 3rd though... all your codex rules for every faction (except Squats of course!) in the back of the rulebook. That was slimmed down! For a month or two.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
As someone who prefers printed products, at this point these books aren't even worth the paper they're printed on. Just create a living ruleset on phones and tablets...

Good news, the app updates points and rules automatically!

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
As someone who prefers printed products, at this point these books aren't even worth the paper they're printed on. Just create a living ruleset on phones and tablets...

Good news, the app updates points and rules automatically!

This is very much my thought when people complain about all these books. Like, i just stick the code in the app and then the book goes on the shelf.

Dudeface wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
Well, when a company produces a defective product, yes they are required to provide the fix at no cost to consumers.

So if armies, and units are so imbalanced that they need to change the points and or rules, then yes it should be free.

Gw should be happy the fix is cheap.

Define defective. They come with points and are usable without changes indefinitely in most cases. You're asking for a refinement of the functional product, which there is no obligation to provide for free, even if doing so is easy and makes sense.

Interestingly the points changes are free in the app, even for non-subscribers, as long as the codex is registered.

GW regularly produces defective products. An example are rules that are ambiguous.

I would argue that a game is defective if it is sufficiently imbalanced. In some cases a "player" does not even get to play, as their opponent wins on turn 1.

Changes that GW makes to the game, such as releasing new armies, etc. have an effect on the functioning of the game. If they break the game then I believe that they have an obligation to fix it for free.

 spaceelf wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
Well, when a company produces a defective product, yes they are required to provide the fix at no cost to consumers.

So if armies, and units are so imbalanced that they need to change the points and or rules, then yes it should be free.

Gw should be happy the fix is cheap.

Define defective. They come with points and are usable without changes indefinitely in most cases. You're asking for a refinement of the functional product, which there is no obligation to provide for free, even if doing so is easy and makes sense.

Interestingly the points changes are free in the app, even for non-subscribers, as long as the codex is registered.

GW regularly produces defective products. An example are rules that are ambiguous.

I would argue that a game is defective if it is sufficiently imbalanced. In some cases a "player" does not even get to play, as their opponent wins on turn 1.

Changes that GW makes to the game, such as releasing new armies, etc. have an effect on the functioning of the game. If they break the game then I believe that they have an obligation to fix it for free.

Define "breaking the game", because there isn't a yardstick for what that is, when it kicks in or who it impacts.

In the event of your example of turn 1 winning armies, they have actually stopped those, for free.

The only fix you're charged for in reality is new missions. But if they're new, I'd argue it's not a fix again.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
As someone who prefers printed products, at this point these books aren't even worth the paper they're printed on. Just create a living ruleset on phones and tablets...

Good news, the app updates points and rules automatically!

Yeah, pity you still have to order a phisycal book to access them though.

hypnoticeris wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
As someone who prefers printed products, at this point these books aren't even worth the paper they're printed on. Just create a living ruleset on phones and tablets...

Good news, the app updates points and rules automatically!

Yeah, pity you still have to order a phisycal book to access them though.

Just your codex. Once you have that, the rest is free.

New inquisitor? in front of dread.

Also Forces mentioned are: Imperial Guard, SoB, Mechanicus, SM, Imperial agents of light and dark, a living saint and shadowy inquisitor, GSC, Orks, as well as CSM, Chaos cultist and daemons.

This is awesome news. Campaign and scenario play is by faaarrrr the best way to play 40k, so regularly scheduled piles of new missions and fun stuff is everything I've always wanted.

zamerion wrote:


New inquisitor? in front of dread.

Also Forces mentioned are: Imperial Guard, SoB, Mechanicus, SM, Imperial agents of light and dark, a living saint and shadowy inquisitor, GSC, Orks, as well as CSM, Chaos cultist and daemons.

Interesting that Chaos Cultists are mentioned separately from Heretic Astartes. Hmmm......

zamerion wrote:


New inquisitor? in front of dread.

Also Forces mentioned are: Imperial Guard, SoB, Mechanicus, SM, Imperial agents of light and dark, a living saint and shadowy inquisitor, GSC, Orks, as well as CSM, Chaos cultist and daemons.

I can't quite identify the chaos chap between the fiend and the front most intercessor either, maybe a radical?

Edit: think it's the sorcerer but at a junky angle that makes the glowy bit fit the shoulder.

 warboss wrote:

 Oryza Sativa wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
So will we be doing this again?

7th edition: "The game is too bloated!"
8th edition: "OMG GW are listening, I love Nu-GW and 8th is back to basics!"
9th edition: "The game is too bloated!"
10th edition: "OMG GW are listening, I love Nu-GW and 10th is back to basics!"

You forgot the transition from 3rd to 4th (or was it 4th to 5th?), where we got rid of all the White Dwarfs we were carrying around for the extra rules in them (Minor Psychic Powers, anyone?) and streamlined down to fairly simple codexes before starting to build up again.

Nothing beats the start of 3rd though... all your codex rules for every faction (except Squats of course!) in the back of the rulebook. That was slimmed down! For a month or two.

They came close with indexes for 8th. But then everyone pissed on about how bland things were (hint: insane variability in unit/combos makes balance effectively impossible) like they did with 3rd back of the book forces.

So what exactly is this campaign about? I haven't been keeping up on the advancing plotline. If Abaddon takes this Vigilus planet he'll control the only stable corridor through the warp storm and the Imperium will be even more doomed than the last time that happened? I'm glad they advanced the plot so we can get these new and compelling narratives.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what exactly is this campaign about? I haven't been keeping up on the advancing plotline. If Abaddon takes this Vigilus planet he'll control the only stable corridor through the warp storm and the Imperium will be even more doomed than the last time that happened? I'm glad they advanced the plot so we can get these new and compelling narratives.

Yep. Its another 'return to sender' piece of post warp rift history. Remember Dark Imperium (8th), launched at the end of the Indomitus Crusade, 100 years after everything went kersplat. GW for no apparent decided they really needed to actually tell that story and restarted the narrative back at the beginning of Indomitus.

Now maybe the Imps won the first battle of Vigilus and this is round 2 to wrest it away (or possibly, with the retcon, that was round 2 and this is actually round 1), but mostly it doesn't matter. <Planet> is attacked by <various factions>, and <factions> have to be in control or <things> happen. Stay tuned for Warzone Hupperdook, where <factions> on <planet> fight for <other things>, and Vigilus will once again be a vague memory of nothing at all.

Well, there is an inference that the outcome of each season will have implications for the story going forward. So, we will see where that goes.

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
Well, there is an inference that the outcome of each season will have implications for the story going forward. So, we will see where that goes.

What if we all just agree to have the Space Marine players lose everytime?

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
Well, there is an inference that the outcome of each season will have implications for the story going forward. So, we will see where that goes.

Yep. if the Imperium loses control of Vigilus, they lose controlled access to Imperium Nihilus, which implies lots of rocks fall, lots of people die (maybe including Dante, since he is/was/will be in charge over there, after Roboute comes/came/will come to clean up that whole tyranid invasion after the Indomitus Crusade). So... they won't lose so the plot can happen and the game doesn't end in 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' Story!

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 CMLR wrote:
GW really want their playerbase to start playing AoS, until they start doing the same to them.

Wish to be a LotR player right now.

The $ per page of standard rules for LotR is pretty high, each book only gives you a handful of pages you can use in regular/pick-up/tournament games (or probably more accurately, it's been declining over the course of time.

The MESBG supplements tend to cover very specific periods/armies which probably won't be seeing another splat book for a long time, if ever. At least if you buy an MESBG supplement you can be pretty confident you'll be getting a long use out of it. They're more comparable to setting books from something like Bolt Action (there's only so many Omaha books you can get away with).

Way to shill for GW.