Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im not saying they were desgined to be meta checkers, im saying thats the roll they ended up filling because they were designed to be big stompy robot.

They ended up becoming the metachecker because they run so counter to what the rest of the game is. You put a knight army down you dont play the same game non knight armies play, so it acts as a way to check the meta because lists designed for the meta end up not working as good against knights.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
so it acts as a way to check the meta because lists designed for the meta end up not working as good against knights.

As someone who has played Knights against "meta" 9th Ed lists, I can tell you this is patently untrue. Meta lists tend to steamroll Knights because things that are good in the current meta just happen to put out enough damage to neuter, or at worst manage, an all Knight list. There's a reason you don't see Knights playing top table at events.

And i also agree that because of GWs power creeping they have been put in a super bad place.

Hell when they brought back the ability to drop in melta weapons in range to knights, i basically checked out of 9th. trying to survive on a 5++ is not a very fun thing to do in current 40k.

I'd put it like this. Armies were previously designed around being able to kill a Knight per turn, because that is what it took to beat a Knight list.

Now with the powercreep good armies just naturally kill a Knight per turn because stuff does so much damage.

Knights are no longer a meta check because anything that can win the in the meta naturally beats Knights.

 Ordana wrote:
I'd put it like this. Armies were previously designed around being able to kill a Knight per turn, because that is what it took to beat a Knight list.

Now with the powercreep good armies just naturally kill a Knight per turn because stuff does so much damage.

And that seems pretty reasonable for what an army should be able to do, but power creep has gotten really bad, like you said, that its starting to feel like 7th ed alpha striking.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I'd put it like this. Armies were previously designed around being able to kill a Knight per turn, because that is what it took to beat a Knight list.

Now with the powercreep good armies just naturally kill a Knight per turn because stuff does so much damage.

And that seems pretty reasonable for what an army should be able to do, but power creep has gotten really bad, like you said, that its starting to feel like 7th ed alpha striking.

No it absolutely is not reasonable. Knights were extremely meta warping and bad for the game. Setting a hard cap on "you must be able to kill this unique model type that no one else has in 1 turn to be allowed on this ride" is very stifling to army and list variety.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
And i also agree that because of GWs power creeping they have been put in a super bad place.

Hell when they brought back the ability to drop in melta weapons in range to knights, i basically checked out of 9th. trying to survive on a 5++ is not a very fun thing to do in current 40k.

Knights are quite solid at the moment.

Very few top places because they are indeed very gatekeepy, but their win rate is perfectly fine.

Right now yes i agree, knights are i think last i checked right around a 50% win rate, which to be god honest is kinda where you want them to be.

They act as a great gatekeepy army because they act as a wrench to most meta armies which agian, you really do want in the game. No army should rule the roost and knights act as a good break up to that.

My issue i take here is that tau seem to very much be able to not only counter knights, but do it in such an easy way. When you consider that their HH, which is not even the most powerful gun they have, is able to bracket knights with ease. Your looking at an army that can cripple knight lists with ease and, in my opinion, sets a dangerous precedent for how the rest of the codex's are going to be looking.

There are too many question marks involved.

We don't know the point cost.
We don't know the BS.
We don't know if it kept fly.
...

This could be a huge issue as well as a non issue. We simply don't have the data.

Spoletta wrote:
There are too many question marks involved.

We don't know the point cost.
We don't know the BS.
We don't know if it kept fly.
...

This could be a huge issue as well as a non issue. We simply don't have the data.

we do know its going to be BS4+

I strongly suspect its going to keep fly, i would be greatly shocked if it did not go up at least 30 points.
The one thing im genuinely concerned about here though is, marklight drones.

However, ironically at least people will probably start buying storm surges now since those hardly saw table time, but im terrorfied as to what THAT gun will do.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
There are too many question marks involved.

We don't know the point cost.
We don't know the BS.
We don't know if it kept fly.
...

This could be a huge issue as well as a non issue. We simply don't have the data.

we do know its going to be BS4+

I strongly suspect its going to keep fly, i would be greatly shocked if it did not go up at least 30 points.
The one thing im genuinely concerned about here though is, marklight drones.

However, ironically at least people will probably start buying storm surges now since those hardly saw table time, but im terrorfied as to what THAT gun will do.

We know HH will be BS4+? Was there a leak I'm unaware of?

And you're "terrorfied" that another LoW will be able to hurt your LoW? The Stormsurge is a LoW, same as a knight, it should be able to go toe to toe with them.

No, im not terrorfied that something will be able to kill my knight thats fine, i dont think its fine that they can do so with no impunity and no way to even have a chance to save against it.

Feels real bad man.
Unsavable minimum of 10 wounds feel really bad no matter who you are. Thats one shotting dreads, D princes, crippling knights, popping tanks, ect ect, and they get nothing to save against it. Its not a good answer to the problems out there.

Knights were brought into 40k because a bunch of the Execs saw Pacific Rim one too many times and got butt hurt they can't do that in GW plastic.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Knights were brought into 40k because a bunch of the Execs saw Pacific Rim one too many times and got butt hurt they can't do that in GW plastic.

Knights have existed in the universe for decades, muh dude.

Knights were introduced if i recall correctly. in warhammer epic.

 Platuan4th wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Knights were brought into 40k because a bunch of the Execs saw Pacific Rim one too many times and got butt hurt they can't do that in GW plastic.

Knights have existed in the universe for decades, muh dude.

So have the Hrud. Doesn't mean they have plastic minis.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Knights were brought into 40k because a bunch of the Execs saw Pacific Rim one too many times and got butt hurt they can't do that in GW plastic.

Knights have existed in the universe for decades, muh dude.

So have the Hrud. Doesn't mean they have plastic minis.

You are right.

THEY HAD PEWTER MINIS!

There were also plastic Knights Paladin in the Titan Legions starter set - and at least two other variants in metal not shown on that page.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yeah, but knights don't get their invuls from "the threat of the warp", they get it from a force field, those can be overloaded. If gw would have given vehicles like knights 2+ saves instead of invuls they wouldn't have had to write this silly rule for a gun like the railgun. Then things like daemons and psykers could have their invuls. I was specifically addressing knights, which is what this thread is about. Big vehicles like knights should fear AT weapons, and giving them rules to avoid that was a mistake.

I don't think this is a direct address to knights. It's just another weapon in the panoply of tools. Eldar appear to be getting a similar treatment.

At some point we'll probably see more phase limited damage or half damage units -- I can see Greater Daemons picking one of those up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
I'm not sure this chart is showing what you want us to see. My mathhammers says the following for 2 HHs:

0 Damage: 165

10+ Damage: 84%

11+ Damage: 68%

12+ Damage (aka bracketed): 52%

20+ Damage (double bracketed): 36%

21+ Damage: 32%

22+ Damage: 24%

23+ Damage: 12%

24 Damage (Destroyed): 4%

So Daedalus81, my Bracketed number isn't disingenuous. There is a significant drop-off in the chance of doing 12 damage and the chance of doing 20, with getting 12 damage being at the coin-toss level of likelihood. Failing to bracket nearly 50% of the time is not a reliable plan for dealing with a Knight, even if you have other options to try and get those extra few wounds in. T8 3+ 5++ isn't easy damage for S5/6 AP 0/-1 attacks.

No that pretty much aligns with my considerations. 52% of results put the knight in a single bracket or better. 44% puts it on two brackets and if it doesn't get tagged by something else it will go top bracket via strat. And only 4% is a wipe.

Of course this is all very sterile and doesn't consider CP rerolls, traits, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
I'd put it like this. Armies were previously designed around being able to kill a Knight per turn, because that is what it took to beat a Knight list.

Now with the powercreep good armies just naturally kill a Knight per turn because stuff does so much damage.

Knights are no longer a meta check because anything that can win the in the meta naturally beats Knights.

Ain't nobody cleaning knights out from range with current lists. The number of anti-tank weapons is waaaaay lower than people think. Meta lists don't beat Knights by straight up killing them unless it's Orks.

Knights have a 49% 6 week win rate right now.

so, because Knights have been an Epic for decades and there were Minis for them

I guess the Codex Warlord Titans will be next, because if this is the reason why we have Knights in 40k (and not just because some guy saw a movie or game trailer and thought it would be cool to have such models in 40k), there is no reason why they should not get their own Codex

I mean, they already do have rules in 40k, just they cost a lot of points to field.

And they do already have their own "codex" the imperial armor.

Besides the entire point of that was, someone was saying that they only added knights because someone saw a movie, and that was just an objectively false statement because knights existed in lore for decades.

No one is arguing over if that justifies a codex, or does not justify a codex. That an entirely different point.

this is exactly the point, while Knights are in the setting for a very long time, there is no real reason why they are in regular 40k outside the niche of Imperial Armour, not even talking about why they are their own army

there is no real reason for outside "someone saw something similar and wanted it to have in 40k"

it is in 40k because it was there in Epic is no reason, otherwise we would see much more stuff coming back, so there is a different one not related to anything mentioned above

Ok so here is the counter point to that.

Why do they not belong in regular 40k?
"someone saw something similar and wanted it to have in 40k" as an argument for why they are in there, has just as much merit as me saying "GW dug through their old lore and said hey why the hell not, lets add knights back into the mix." We dont know the real reason as to why they did it, we are jsut speculating.

The fit perfectly fine into the game, just like if someone really wanted to, they can run 4 baneblades, and currently they are not broken, they are at a ~50% win rate.

 kodos wrote:
, otherwise we would see much more stuff coming back,

We ARE. Between FW and mainline GW, we've gotten a huge number of models that are references/reduxes to models of old from other 40K based games and outdated eras. Horus Heresy literally has models based on the freaking Space Crusade Dreadnoughts.

Dont forget the custodes terminator armor is old blanch artwork as well.

Knights are fantastic models - must be why I have five of them

 Mr Morden wrote:
Knights are fantastic models - must be why I have five of them

like wise, i got 4 painted, a lancer i need to get off my rear and build, and then scattered around my hobby room like 4 or 5 armigers.

Did a big commission for a friend where i painted, and im not exaggerating, about 10+ chaos knights' for him, in white x.x

That alone drained me from wanting to put together my lance.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 kodos wrote:
, otherwise we would see much more stuff coming back,

We ARE. Between FW and mainline GW, we've gotten a huge number of models that are references/reduxes to models of old from other 40K based games and outdated eras. Horus Heresy literally has models based on the freaking Space Crusade Dreadnoughts.

cool for HH, but which vehicles are coming back to 40k?

Out of curiosity, who has a 'centerpiece model' for their army?

Knights I can understand as centerpiece models, and moved to today where people want just those models to make up their force.

Heck, Tau have those same issues - how many people have their Stormsurge survive past turn 1?

 kodos wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 kodos wrote:
, otherwise we would see much more stuff coming back,

We ARE. Between FW and mainline GW, we've gotten a huge number of models that are references/reduxes to models of old from other 40K based games and outdated eras. Horus Heresy literally has models based on the freaking Space Crusade Dreadnoughts.

cool for HH, but which vehicles are coming back to 40k?

Literally every SM "relic" vehicle.