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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Harlequins were tough in 8th so I'm not surprised they will be a strong contender in 9th.

Question for Auric weapons. Do relic weapons like veiled blade, gatekeeper, etc. count as Auric weapons? I ask because they took the time to specify Gnosis and Watcher's Ax but didn't list any of the relics. I would think the intention is that a relic which counts as a Sentinel Blade or Guardian Spear would be auric weapons.

My understanding would be yes, absolutely. Since Admonimortis or the Gatekeeper are just upgraded versions of the base Castellan Axe or Guardian Spear, it would make zero sense for them suddenly losing the Auric Weapon trait.

EightFoldPath wrote:
The CP cost of the strategems are really poorly designed. 2 CP to EA for a unit of 5 Custodian Guard (215 points). 1 CP to EA for a unit of 4 Bikes (340 ponts) or a Telemon (260 points). Why not base the cost on PL like they used to?

Because it's not supposed to promote taking mass blobs of shield guard.

It is supposed to promote taking smaller units.

Auric weapons are just a "type" it has nothing to do with Named weapons. For instance, Trajann's just using a really old Axe. Val is just using a really special spear. Named weapons still get Auric, unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the rules/abilities of said weapon. For instance, they haven't specifically said the Melta spears aren't auric. So it's generally allowed at my local. YMMV.

Tiberias wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Harlequins were tough in 8th so I'm not surprised they will be a strong contender in 9th.

Question for Auric weapons. Do relic weapons like veiled blade, gatekeeper, etc. count as Auric weapons? I ask because they took the time to specify Gnosis and Watcher's Ax but didn't list any of the relics. I would think the intention is that a relic which counts as a Sentinel Blade or Guardian Spear would be auric weapons.

My understanding would be yes, absolutely. Since Admonimortis or the Gatekeeper are just upgraded versions of the base Castellan Axe or Guardian Spear, it would make zero sense for them suddenly losing the Auric Weapon trait.

While it isn't logical I think it is RAW. There's just a list of 'this is auric', right?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Auric weapons are just a "type" it has nothing to do with Named weapons. For instance, Trajann's just using a really old Axe. Val is just using a really special spear. Named weapons still get Auric, unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the rules/abilities of said weapon. For instance, they haven't specifically said the Melta spears aren't auric. So it's generally allowed at my local. YMMV.

They don't HAVE to say the Melta Spears aren't Auric, as Auric is a list of weapons. If it isn't updated to be on the list, it isn't an Auric Weapon.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Auric weapons are just a "type" it has nothing to do with Named weapons. For instance, Trajann's just using a really old Axe. Val is just using a really special spear. Named weapons still get Auric, unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the rules/abilities of said weapon. For instance, they haven't specifically said the Melta spears aren't auric. So it's generally allowed at my local. YMMV.

They don't HAVE to say the Melta Spears aren't Auric, as Auric is a list of weapons. If it isn't updated to be on the list, it isn't an Auric Weapon.

I mean, if you want to be that way. Sure. Anything not on the list isn't Auric. That means Gnosis, The Gatekeeper, The Watchers axe, and the Veiled blade are not Auric. But they are, and I think it's silly to argue they aren't.

Does it have text saying “These weapons and any relics replacing them are Auric Weapons”?

It does.

Some rules refer to auric weapons. An auric weapon is any weapon from the list below, or any Relic that replaces such a weapon:

Castellan axe
Gnosis
Guardian spear
Sentinel blade
Watcher's Axe

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Auric weapons are just a "type" it has nothing to do with Named weapons. For instance, Trajann's just using a really old Axe. Val is just using a really special spear. Named weapons still get Auric, unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the rules/abilities of said weapon. For instance, they haven't specifically said the Melta spears aren't auric. So it's generally allowed at my local. YMMV.

They don't HAVE to say the Melta Spears aren't Auric, as Auric is a list of weapons. If it isn't updated to be on the list, it isn't an Auric Weapon.

I mean, if you want to be that way. Sure. Anything not on the list isn't Auric. That means Gnosis, The Gatekeeper, The Watchers axe, and the Veiled blade are not Auric. But they are, and I think it's silly to argue they aren't.

You are just not reading the rules correctly in this case. Gnosis and the Watchers Axe are specifically on the list. The other relics replace a standard guardian spear/sentinel blade etc. and thus count as Auric Weapons. The special Forgeworld spears are not standard guardian spears, but specifically Adrasite/Pyrithite Spears and therefore do not count as Auric Weapons, there is not really a discussion about that.
But if you houserule them as Auric Weapons then you do you, nobody can stop you from doing that and if the other people you are playing with are fine with it, then why not.

EightFoldPath wrote:
It does.

Some rules refer to auric weapons. An auric weapon is any weapon from the list below, or any Relic that replaces such a weapon:

Castellan axe
Gnosis
Guardian spear
Sentinel blade
Watcher's Axe

Thanks for catching that! I missed that sentence regarding relics when I was looking over the codex yesterday.

Venatari - no longer competitive? Or even worth considering? Clearly the bikes are a superior option at this point (we'll see what happens post nerf), but they still seem like a strong alternative to standard guard.

Would you all go full pistol or with the death of double shooting is throwing a spear in there appealing?

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Venatari - no longer competitive? Or even worth considering? Clearly the bikes are a superior option at this point (we'll see what happens post nerf), but they still seem like a strong alternative to standard guard.

Would you all go full pistol or with the death of double shooting is throwing a spear in there appealing?

Personally I still like them. Like you said bikes are better, but they're going to get nerfed pretty soon in all likelihood. So maybe in some lists a space opens up for a 3man Venatari squad to do actions and be a fast moving threat.

Regarding loadout: in my opinion the lances come out ahead of the pistols. Yes, the pistol/buckler gives a 2+ save, but against most things that matter, we're on our invuln anyway. The spears offer almost the same shooting power and significantly better melee. I think the spears are worth a try.

Tiberias wrote:

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Venatari - no longer competitive? Or even worth considering? Clearly the bikes are a superior option at this point (we'll see what happens post nerf), but they still seem like a strong alternative to standard guard.

Would you all go full pistol or with the death of double shooting is throwing a spear in there appealing?

Personally I still like them. Like you said bikes are better, but they're going to get nerfed pretty soon in all likelihood. So maybe in some lists a space opens up for a 3man Venatari squad to do actions and be a fast moving threat.

Regarding loadout: in my opinion the lances come out ahead of the pistols. Yes, the pistol/buckler gives a 2+ save, but against most things that matter, we're on our invuln anyway. The spears offer almost the same shooting power and significantly better melee. I think the spears are worth a try.

The Sound of models suddenly having their arms snapped off and replaced. Yeah, honestly the Venetari spear should be a Auric weapon, if they are keeping that Melee weapon but still a gun line of reasoning.

I honestly have to hand it to GW, they completely nerfed the FW line up without even touching them. Simply by making the Plastic ones absolutely bonkers good.

The dreadnoughts remain an easy staple. Tau suppress them more then the plastic range honestly

just had a game against new harlies in light saedeth.

Was pretty close but i came out on top.

Dice where absolutely insane in the bad and good with both of us having super swing turns.

Turns 1 and 2 i couldnt make a save and lost all my bikes (bike cap too) and both my grav tanks.

Turns 3 and 4 he couldnt make a single save and lost a 10 man player squad to morale (whole squad. I shot 4 dead, he failed morale, then the rest ran).

End of the game he had one death jester and a 5 man player unit left. I had 3 allarus, and 2 shield guard.

well that at least sounds like a nailbiter game in which both players got to have fun!
That such a thing still exists in 40k is a miracle

When the dice abandon both sides you can get some really fun and memorable games. Hopefully you're rematch gives a better idea on how Harlequins fare against Bikers.

I played a Space Marines list last weekend and gave EC a shot. Putting Dread-Host on Bikers for a turn was helpful dumping 36 AP-1 shots onto Marines before charging in. Although with the abundance of Melta & Plasma I didn't have much CP left to try out other subfactions with Esteemed Amalgm.

A Marine opponent did give Vigilators a chance to shine, putting out the same number and quality of attacks as a 3-man guard squad but at only half the price. They do stumble against Gravis armor but I positioned my Vigilators opposite the assault intercessors and my Guard squads towards the T5 enemies.

yeah it was interesting as I didnt have alot to work with so in turn 3 i actually popped salvus double shots off to let my 3 allarus terminators go ham into his players.

each one killed 3-4 in the shooting phase (then the morale thing happened). One got in melee and finished a squad off and took a key point for me as well.

Tiberias wrote:

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Venatari - no longer competitive? Or even worth considering? Clearly the bikes are a superior option at this point (we'll see what happens post nerf), but they still seem like a strong alternative to standard guard.

Would you all go full pistol or with the death of double shooting is throwing a spear in there appealing?

Personally I still like them. Like you said bikes are better, but they're going to get nerfed pretty soon in all likelihood. So maybe in some lists a space opens up for a 3man Venatari squad to do actions and be a fast moving threat.

Regarding loadout: in my opinion the lances come out ahead of the pistols. Yes, the pistol/buckler gives a 2+ save, but against most things that matter, we're on our invuln anyway. The spears offer almost the same shooting power and significantly better melee. I think the spears are worth a try.

Seconding this. A spear trio (if you have the slot) does work, and they have just the level of hitting power they can clear out backfield MSU holders, so they have to be taken seriously. Of course they will draw fire due to this.

At best, they are a decent harrying unit, capable of skirmishing and pulling mobs off objectives. At Worst, they are a 3 wound model with a 3+4++, 4 s6 attacks, good S6 ap2 d2 shooting shooting, and T5. Depending on weapon choice they could have better shooting and armor, or better melee. Not Trajann level, but I would be surprised if they fall off the competitive table. They are still a really solid unit. Good luck finding points for them though.

I just read the recent goonhammer article on how to fix custodes and tau. I'd like to get my hands on what these guys are smoking. Several people suggested that you should only be able to use auspice once per turn, one even suggested to make it only once per unit per game.
What the feth are these guys talking about. Increasing the cost of at least one of our defensive strats...sure, I can totally get behind that. Increasing unit costs, especially on Trajann and the bikes? Absolutely! But that BS is just ridiculous. They act like auspice and transhuman affects our whole army, all the time. And having the gall to talk about the "baseline thoughness" of custodes pushing the strats over the top...what the feth are you talking about? Custodes are tough because of the stratagems...that's it. Everybody universally agrees that the game is too lethal, but turning off re-rolls...can't do that buddy. What a bunch of horsegak.

So true.

When I read that article, I was basically snorting back to back with "are you kidding me" mixed in.
Those were not reasonable takes at all.
Pts increases? Ok.
Emperor's chosen trait? MAYBE.
Esteemed amalgam going to once per shield host? Uh... I guess.
But moving auspex/arcane to 2cp/3cp althrough WITH further limits is just insane.

Especially since they increase Trajanns cost in the first place "because you have near unlimited CP" and then increase the CP so he is a MUST TAKE if you want to survive past T2.
Its ridiculous. Since Goonhammer let their resident idiot post the "I love tau, feth you, I get to have fun, I dont care about you"-article they lost all credibility for me.

 Thairne wrote:
So true.

When I read that article, I was basically snorting back to back with "are you kidding me" mixed in.
Those were not reasonable takes at all.
Pts increases? Ok.
Emperor's chosen trait? MAYBE.
Esteemed amalgam going to once per shield host? Uh... I guess.
But moving auspex/arcane to 2cp/3cp althrough WITH further limits is just insane.

Especially since they increase Trajanns cost in the first place "because you have near unlimited CP" and then increase the CP so he is a MUST TAKE if you want to survive past T2.
Its ridiculous. Since Goonhammer let their resident idiot post the "I love tau, feth you, I get to have fun, I dont care about you"-article they lost all credibility for me.

Goons isn't great for balancing. Wings is probably the closest most the time but even he seems a bit harsh both here and with Drukhari.

I realized they were a bit biased when they busted out the '95% confidence interval' to measure killing a Raider efficiently and then never used it again since (and didn't before either).

True.
When I started the article, I was finding myself grudingly nodding along. I'd even go and give Trajann a +40 to 200.

It's the most reasonable take of them all, although I feel once per turn-ing Auspice, or any change to that strat or AGA, should be very, very well considered and be very cautiously applied.

What I'd do is revert the CA pts changes, hike Trajann/additional +5 to salvos and see where this takes us for 3 months.

 Thairne wrote:
True.
When I started the article, I was finding myself grudingly nodding along. I'd even go and give Trajann a +40 to 200.

It's the most reasonable take of them all, although I feel once per turn-ing Auspice, or any change to that strat or AGA, should be very, very well considered and be very cautiously applied.

What I'd do is revert the CA pts changes, hike Trajann/additional +5 to salvos and see where this takes us for 3 months.

I am of a similar mind.

Yeah I agree. Start with points changes and go from there. Immediately messing with one of the factors that make the army work is almost never a good idea.
Are these so called experts too thick to understand that custodes are only tough (nowadays anyway) because they have access to these strats? And that if you nerf them too harshly too fast it can really hurt the faction?

Heck I could even live with emperors chosen going to a 5+ fnp against mortals, though I don't even think it's necessary...but almost everything they said about stratagems was complete, utter garbage....

Seriously though, we know how GW does this. Stats are always hottest at launch. We will be sent back down within the next 2-3 months. Keep yes Tellies warm, they will likely be our best units post our nerf beating.

Yeah I don't understand the article at all. If turning off rerolls for one unit for one phase somehow breaks the game, then the game itself is broken.

Emperor's Auspice is not the end-all be-all to game imbalance.

It's broken when the faction that does it is boasting a 50-60% win rate in competitive games. It's broken when it invalidates purchased re-rolls. Like, if you paid 400 points for a HQ that gives special re-rolls, and you turn those off, it shuts down a lot more than that one turn.

I don't want to make you angry, but everyone is grabbing pitchforks about this for a reason. It's not because our bikes are suddenly able to kill tanks.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's broken when the faction that does it is boasting a 50-60% win rate in competitive games. It's broken when it invalidates purchased re-rolls. Like, if you paid 400 points for a HQ that gives special re-rolls, and you turn those off, it shuts down a lot more than that one turn.

I don't want to make you angry, but everyone is grabbing pitchforks about this for a reason. It's not because our bikes are suddenly able to kill tanks.

Sorry but that is not a good argument. Auspice existed before 9th and wasn't a problem. Shutting down rerolls is also not a problem, it's necessary for a very low model count army like custodes to survive in 9th. People are just salty playing against it because they are hypocrites. "The game is waay too lethal! But a hyper elite faction like custodes being able to shut down rerolls on one unit?! How dare they?! I want them to die as easily to my non Los shooting and ignoring invuln like everything else!"

Custodes are a problem because they are way too cost efficient right now. Nerfing custodes lists by 150-200 points is a good starting point...making auspice always cost 2cp is an additional measure I think would be ok, but not auspice AND transhuman. Saying auspice should be only once per turn in additional to increasing the cost or even better, once per game per unit is just beyond ridiculous.
I really don't understand why people get so hang up on that strat. We had it in 8th and turning off rerolls wasn't breaking anything back then. It's also one unit, people act like it's a rule that affects our whole army....bait the strat out and then blast something else. Threat saturation is really not that difficult in 9th with all that hyper deadly shooting.

My point being that the pitchfork wielding mob are usually idiots screeching for draconian nerfs because they are salty at the meta game. Understandably so I might add, Tau and Custodes are too strong, but that doesn't mean that those suggestions are good. Well, if the goal is to utterly stomp Custodes as a faction as retribution then yeah, those idiots at Goonhammer have some awesome ideas for sure.