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Thanks everybody for the precious feedback. I changed the list according to your suggestions:

Okay, hear me out on this: what about the possibility of taking a full 10-model unit of Witchseekers in a Rhino and using it for early pressure? Yes, they'll bounce right off of most MEQ or better stuff, but with their pregame move they should be able to get in range to flame something fairly hard. 10 of them with a Rhino is 220 points I think, so less than a unit of 3 bikes, and could do pretty significant damage to anything without Armor of Contempt (thinking of gribblies like Tyranid Gaunts, Scarabs, most Ork troops, etc.). Disrupting at least one of your opponent's Psychic phases could be worth it as well, I would think (meaning maybe 2x5 rather than 1x10 unit could be good), although they are unlikely to live beyond that as GK or TS will probably just shoot them down and Daemons will beat them up in melee.

Main reason I ask is because I really would only need the Custodes combat patrol box to reach a decent 2k points threshold, and I kind of like the idea of bringing along Sisters of Silence as part of it. I feel like there must be a niche for them somewhere.

I've tried for this entire edition to run Flamergals in many of my games. Every single time they are shot off the board before earning close to their points back. I tried a Rhino Rush, I tried a teleport strike, I've even tried putting them in a LR. They get mulched far too easy.

Sisters need AOC and some of the strats that Battle Sisters get. Thinking cleansed by fire and The Emperor's judgement.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I've tried for this entire edition to run Flamergals in many of my games. Every single time they are shot off the board before earning close to their points back. I tried a Rhino Rush, I tried a teleport strike, I've even tried putting them in a LR. They get mulched far too easy.

Sisters need AOC and some of the strats that Battle Sisters get. Thinking cleansed by fire and The Emperor's judgement.

Sorry, Sisters of Silence just aren't angry enough to ignore AP

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I've tried for this entire edition to run Flamergals in many of my games. Every single time they are shot off the board before earning close to their points back. I tried a Rhino Rush, I tried a teleport strike, I've even tried putting them in a LR. They get mulched far too easy.

Sisters need AOC and some of the strats that Battle Sisters get. Thinking cleansed by fire and The Emperor's judgement.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. I was hoping maybe I missed something. Oh well, at least I can build the Sisters from the Combat Patrol as Prosecutors for cheap troops if and when I get it.

Another question: are Wardens even close to worth taking at all now that Bodyguard has gone the way of the dodo competitively? The only thing I can think of for them is to take the axes (which regular Custodians can't get) and use them as a little retinue for Trajann or another foot SC. They just seem like more expensive CG that don't have ObSec now though. I do have three of them with axes and I'd love to have a reason to use them.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I've tried for this entire edition to run Flamergals in many of my games. Every single time they are shot off the board before earning close to their points back. I tried a Rhino Rush, I tried a teleport strike, I've even tried putting them in a LR. They get mulched far too easy.

Sisters need AOC and some of the strats that Battle Sisters get. Thinking cleansed by fire and The Emperor's judgement.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. I was hoping maybe I missed something. Oh well, at least I can build the Sisters from the Combat Patrol as Prosecutors for cheap troops if and when I get it.

Another question: are Wardens even close to worth taking at all now that Bodyguard has gone the way of the dodo competitively? The only thing I can think of for them is to take the axes (which regular Custodians can't get) and use them as a little retinue for Trajann or another foot SC. They just seem like more expensive CG that don't have ObSec now though. I do have three of them with axes and I'd love to have a reason to use them.

The problem with wardens is not only that the general bodyguard change from the balance dataslate makes their bodyguard rule completely superfluous, because any custodes model counts as two models for the purposes of look out sir anyway, as well as them losing obsec....but also that access to the axes is not that valuable anymore in an AoC meta. Wounding marines on 2+ is nice and all, but them still having a 4+ save against your premium weapon just feels bad....3 wardens with spears even do slightly more dmg against a standard marine squad than 3 wardens equipped with axes (about 4,4 unsaved wounds for spears vs 4,1 for axes).

Against a T8 Leman Russ with AoC and 2+ a min squad of Wardens do about 1,6 unsaved wounds with both the axes and the spears...so having access to the axes over standard custodian guard is actually pointless.

Their 6+ fnp is nice but doesn't balance out all the issues I just listed. They are a cool unit and I personally like the models a lot, but they don't really have clear purpose right now.
They shine a bit more in dreadhost though, because the extra AP in melee really helps the axes against armor of contempt.

Edit: so in conclusion, go ham with wardens in a casual setting. They are cool and have nice models. If you play just slightly more competitive, stay clear of them for now because imo you won't get your moneys worth.
Thanks for coming to my Tedtalk about wardens.

Wardens in a max group with Spears is about the most powerful unit in our meta. 40 S7 Attacks with AP3 and +1 to wound, even ignoring the shots they can pour into a target, with Free Misers, thats 40 attacks at S7, then 10 more attacks at S5 ap2 d1. I know it's 500 points, but with Avenge the Fallen, they get even stupider.

I love playing the Warden bomb as a alpha strike.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wardens in a max group with Spears is about the most powerful unit in our meta. 40 S7 Attacks with AP3 and +1 to wound, even ignoring the shots they can pour into a target, with Free Misers, thats 40 attacks at S7, then 10 more attacks at S5 ap2 d1. I know it's 500 points, but with Avenge the Fallen, they get even stupider.

I love playing the Warden bomb as a alpha strike.

It's honestly great that you like playing them and I hope you have great success and fun with a big warden blob in your games, but they are absolutely, without a shadow of doubt not the most powerful unit in our meta, that's just ridiculous.

Yeah, that was a bad take. Absolutely not. But still a fun not meta Unit.

So there have been a number of recent competitive lists that curiously feature a tooled up blade champion. Interestingly enough he even features in non-shadowkeepers lists like emperor's chosen.

Initially when the codex released, and a quite some time after, the consensus basically was that the bladechamp is not worth it competitively. The bike captain provides a faster threat and Trajann is an auto-take in most lists, so he was almost nowhere to be seen for quite some time.

In what way do you guys think the meta has shifted so that now high level competitive players suddenly find value in the blade champ? Or in other words, what value does he provide now, that he didn't or couldn't before.

Just to be clear, the blade champ is not in every single list nowadays, but he pops up significantly more often than before, which imo warrants some attention.

I mean, the Blade Champ is a killer, well, champion unit entry.

Now that 9e is coming to an end I think it's safe to say Custodes got one of the best codexes of the edition.

1. Consistent representation in high level competitive play, with the occasional GT win
2. Absolutely crushes low-to-mid tables, and casual play in general
3. Multiple competitively viable subfactions, with a variety of powerful list archetypes
4. Excellent internal balance. Dreads are good. Bikes and troops are good. Tanks and HQs are good. Biggest losers in this department are terminators and wardens, but even Allarus termis and termi captains show up at GTs semi-regularly. Venatari have also been showing up a lot lately. I challenge you to name a codex with better internal balance than Custodes. The list is satisfyingly short.

artific3r wrote:
Now that 9e is coming to an end I think it's safe to say Custodes got one of the best codexes of the edition.

1. Consistent representation in high level competitive play, with the occasional GT win
2. Absolutely crushes low-to-mid tables, and casual play in general
3. Multiple competitively viable subfactions, with a variety of powerful list archetypes
4. Excellent internal balance. Dreads are good. Bikes and troops are good. Tanks and HQs are good. Biggest losers in this department are terminators and wardens, but even Allarus termis and termi captains show up at GTs semi-regularly. Venatari have also been showing up a lot lately. I challenge you to name a codex with better internal balance than Custodes. The list is satisfyingly short.

To the bolded, that's not satisfying. That's bad.

I'd also hesitate to call our Land raiders good. They are the least good version in the game, and it's been a while since I've seen any LR. Perhaps if they gave it AoC and the new lascannon profile without price increase.

I should clarify, by tanks I really just mean the Caladius and to a lesser extent, the Pallas. The transports all suck for sure but hopefully that doesn't come as a surprise. Land raiders across all factions have been bad for years, Custodes variant is no exception.

I'll have whatever he's smoking!

To call our codex great is....odd. We were given a convoluted and confusing mess of a stance system, that we didn't need, want, or care about, in an effort to make us MORE like Space MArines than ever.

We were given a new unit that is essentially a new HQ that costs almost as much as a generic HQ, but is less useful than our worst HQ, which is an odd balance. He's not Walken, but he's also not as good as a generic SC with an Axe.

None of our legacy units were touched or improved. All of our best units were irrevocably cripled in some way.

Basically they let someone who NEVER played Custodes, design a new Custodes book. I hate it and I will always hate it.

None of our

EviscerationPlague wrote:I mean, the Blade Champ is a killer, well, champion unit entry.

Well sure, but the question still remains. What changed? For the longest time since the codex came out he was considered a slow beatstick that didn't provide enough value over other options, he even got more expensive.

artific3r wrote:Now that 9e is coming to an end I think it's safe to say Custodes got one of the best codexes of the edition.

1. Consistent representation in high level competitive play, with the occasional GT win
2. Absolutely crushes low-to-mid tables, and casual play in general
3. Multiple competitively viable subfactions, with a variety of powerful list archetypes
4. Excellent internal balance. Dreads are good. Bikes and troops are good. Tanks and HQs are good. Biggest losers in this department are terminators and wardens, but even Allarus termis and termi captains show up at GTs semi-regularly. Venatari have also been showing up a lot lately. I challenge you to name a codex with better internal balance than Custodes. The list is satisfyingly short.

Yeah I just really can't agree on your 4th point here.

Units that always show up:
-bike captain
-trajann
-troops because you need them for your detachment, doesn't necessarily mean they are super awesome.

Units that show up very often, but somewhat depend on the list you are going for:
-bikes
-achillus
-ven dread
-caladius

Units that show up, but more seldomly compared to the above category:
-galatus
-venatari
-single allarus termis
-standard vexillus
-pallas
-telemon
-blade champ

Unit that never show up in the vast majority of lists:
-wardens
-aquilon termis
-vigilators
-custodian guard with adrasite and pyrithite spears
-witchseekers
-agamatus jetbikes
-ven land raider (duh)
-orion
-ares
-sisters rhino
-coronus
-knight centuria
-standard shield captain
-valerian
-aleya

About 50% of our units never see play competitively. Considering our already quite small roster of available units I couldn't call that good internal balance. Don't get me wrong it's not horrible, but not good.

It's among the best.

Our best and most iconic units (bike squads) are now kinda worthless, and they severely nerfed (Via omission) already worthless units (Wardens and LRs)

It's almost like GW said, hey, you know that 1 unit that everyone loves about this faction? Lets make it crap instead. Take away it's Obsec, and make it a tank hunter. Then make them more like Space Marines. Give them phases, and doctrines, and make them cost even more for relics and stuff.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Our best and most iconic units (bike squads) are now kinda worthless, and they severely nerfed (Via omission) already worthless units (Wardens and LRs)

It's almost like GW said, hey, you know that 1 unit that everyone loves about this faction? Lets make it crap instead. Take away it's Obsec, and make it a tank hunter. Then make them more like Space Marines. Give them phases, and doctrines, and make them cost even more for relics and stuff.

Most competitive players would disagree with you. Bikes show up in a lot of lists an apparently do quite well.
Your local meta might look different if you play casually and people you play with specifically tech against the bikes or if terrain is set up in way that makes it difficult or impossible to hide them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

artific3r wrote:
It's among the best.

I can't even dispute that, because I don't know the numbers/unit-viability for all other factions, but if around 50% non-viable units is considered excellent and a good place for internal balance, I would say we should hold GW to a higher standard.

It’s good to hold GW to a high standard. It is also important to have some perspective. Play some other factions or some other editions and it will be obvious that Custodes received one of the best books they have ever written in many years. If that’s still not good enough for you, then perhaps your issue isn’t with the Custodes faction but 40k as a whole. Because this is as good as it gets.

I don't care if it's a top performing codex. Less than 5% of the people on these forums is a meta chasing top player, or I would even say highly competitive. Most are just theory crafters who likely just battlescribe lists and own maybe 1 actual list.

My main, and really only grievance, is that I didn't choose to buy a Space Marine force, or a Knights army, or even a Ork Army. I chose A Custodes list because as a new player, I wanted something that was easier to play. I really enjoyed playing Custodes in 8th, and part of 9th, because it allowed me to create my thematic list and play it the way I wanted to.

Then this codex drops, and my bikes are kinda crap outside of a SC or a small unit of them. My Terminators have been nerfed for a reason I still do not understand, and now I'm FORCED to take units I don't want to, because there is a limit on SCs. I just hate the codex because it personally ruined the way I want to play the game that I bought, assembled, painted, and chose to play. Now I'm playing a less powerful list that more resembles a Golden Blood Angels list. Only they can break the 2 damage barrier that we seem stuck at.

I completely understand this is a subjective and worthless opinion. I just wanted to explain why I hate this new codex. It's not what I signed up to play.

Hello there,

am I blind or there are no rules for the Kharon Pattern Acquisitor? I wanted to include some sisters in my list and I'm surprised they can't get their signature transport...

Spado wrote:
Hello there,

am I blind or there are no rules for the Kharon Pattern Acquisitor? I wanted to include some sisters in my list and I'm surprised they can't get their signature transport...

Judging by the fact that GW hasn't really focused on SoS ever, I am guessing no. There are hints that GW is making them a playable faction in 30k soon, so maybe when that happens?

Spado wrote:
Hello there,

am I blind or there are no rules for the Kharon Pattern Acquisitor? I wanted to include some sisters in my list and I'm surprised they can't get their signature transport...

The kharon pattern aquisitor unfortunately does not have a datasheet in 40k. The only transport option sisters of silence have in 40k is a rhino.
It does however have a datasheet in the new Horus Heresy edition and can be found in the new liber imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

artific3r wrote:
It’s good to hold GW to a high standard. It is also important to have some perspective. Play some other factions or some other editions and it will be obvious that Custodes received one of the best books they have ever written in many years. If that’s still not good enough for you, then perhaps your issue isn’t with the Custodes faction but 40k as a whole. Because this is as good as it gets.

Fair enough, but I still don't agree with the notion that criticism on internal balance is not as warranted because other factions have it worse, that's just whataboutism.

Hey,

I posted this in General - apologies in advance but this seems to be a more focused location (and thank you for the replies in that thread). I am not overly familiar with Custodes but using the Christmas box as an army core is pretty cost effective it looks like.

Box Set:
– 1x Captain-General Trajann Valoris
– 3x Vertus Praetors, one of which can be built as a Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
---- If I understand correctly - if you make one a Shield Captain then the unit is only 2 and would not be valid (unit size 3-6) Why would this be advisable since you would need to buy a another set of 3??
– 3x Allarus Custodians, one of which can be built as a Vexilus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armour and another as a Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour
---- Similar to above question - it will make a unit of 2 or 1 and 2 single units
– 15x Custodian Guards, which include components to build some as Shield-Captains and Vexilus Praetors.

It has been mentioned here - and in a number of reddit threads - that adding a contemptor or two of various flavors would be good.


What else would be required to fill this out into a flexible "Weekend player" (non GT play), army? Cost effective is a factor so $600 USD in FW grav tanks is likely not in the cards...

Thx

Edit: wrong topic, sorry please delete

Tome_Keeper wrote:
Hey,

I posted this in General - apologies in advance but this seems to be a more focused location (and thank you for the replies in that thread). I am not overly familiar with Custodes but using the Christmas box as an army core is pretty cost effective it looks like.

Box Set:
– 1x Captain-General Trajann Valoris
– 3x Vertus Praetors, one of which can be built as a Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
---- If I understand correctly - if you make one a Shield Captain then the unit is only 2 and would not be valid (unit size 3-6) Why would this be advisable since you would need to buy a another set of 3??
– 3x Allarus Custodians, one of which can be built as a Vexilus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armour and another as a Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour
---- Similar to above question - it will make a unit of 2 or 1 and 2 single units
– 15x Custodian Guards, which include components to build some as Shield-Captains and Vexilus Praetors.

It has been mentioned here - and in a number of reddit threads - that adding a contemptor or two of various flavors would be good.


What else would be required to fill this out into a flexible "Weekend player" (non GT play), army? Cost effective is a factor so $600 USD in FW grav tanks is likely not in the cards...

Thx

You're right about the unit size thing. Ideally you'd want another box or two of bikes so you can run one as a bike captain and still have enough for 1-2 normal bike units. Get at least one plastic melta contemptor for general damage and defense. Two or three would be better. Get a unit or two of sisters of silence prosecutors to use as cheap, backfield objective holders. You don't really need more allarus terminators right now as most people usually run them as solo objective holder units. Blade champions are solid if you want another foot HQ. If you're open to souping and losing some special rules, a trio of knight helverins would compliment Custodes very well in place of the FW Caladius tanks.

I'd actually hold off until GW releases their teased update to the SoS line. Apparently it's 30k only right now, but that's never stopped it from transitioning to 40k where Custodes/SoS are concerned.

Apparently there is some new models, and enough to make them a stand alone force?

I can't really see the reasoning behind this. SoS are the extreme fringe of a niche faction that already has below average player base. The fact that someone at GW decided to possibly do this is interesting to say the least?

I hope they give SoS actual SW/HWs in their bolter squads. Give them Plasma rifles, rocket launchers, or even HBs. You might also consider giving them AoC?

A 10 strong unit of bolter SOS with 4 heavy bolters (special ammo too perhaps?) In a Custodes army would be very welcome. It would add a lot to the Custodes weak points to clear chaff units at range.