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People who believe in "Vote with your wallet" and forms of consumer protest live in a fantasy world. Please do not attempt """"""""""""embargos""""""""""""""" or these bizarre attempts at protest - they are an embarrassing waste of time.
What is most telling about this codex is that many of its previous defenders have now admitted yep, it's dogshit. I'm sure someone will, as part of the ever present cult of optimists, somehow find a way to argue it's good actually.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
Not terribly impressed with what's come out, but wouldn't call it a complete loss.
We will be seeing a lot of lists consisting of Daemon Engines / Mutants.
The Good
- Finally, we get 2W on PA troops. Huzzah!
- Abaddon seems like a steal. Impressive datasheet and points cost.
- Mutants and Torments seem very cheap for the points.
- Obliterators are cheaper, which is always appreciated.
- Venomcrawler as Fast Attack means you could take 6 Daemon Engines in a single detachment.
- Daemon Engines with WS 3 / BS3 makes them a legitimate threat.
- Legionnaires can still take weapons that are not on their sprue. Was concerned.
- Same with Havocs.
- MoE is now an elite, which could make him useful.
The Bad
- There's this blob of units that costs 25 - 35 ppm. Bikers, Spawn, Possessed, Terminators, Chosen, and Warp Talons. None of them are bad at what they do, nor are any of them that great for the points. I need the full rules to figure out if they're actually an upgrade over massed Mutants / Torments.
- The Daemon Prince datasheet seems like a misprint. Still a terror, but he should be better.
- Possessed are pretty expensive. Assuming 3W / T5 / D2 attacks, wondering they are truly worth it compared to double the number of Mutants.
- Even with 2W, Bikers don't seem worth it for the cost.
- The Heldrake still doesn't seem to have a role in most lists. He just doesn't do enough to justify the price.
- Sonic Blasters don't actually seem like an improvement. 1 less shot, you only get 2D at half range.
The Ugly
- No clue how this would compete against AdMech, Tau, Drukhari or Custodes. Not seeing anything to counter some of the more common lists for these factions, much less the most competitive. Even Speedfreaks will find Chaos weak.
- Looks like you need other Codexes for Cult Troops (other than Noise Marines.) Which means you're spending $50 on another Codex if you want to field them. Probably only an option for players who have both armies.
- Chaos Lords without Terminator armor are severely limited because f$%^ing jump packs are gone. Was hoping this was an inaccurate rumor.
- Chosen at 25 ppm, plus 10 ppm for combi weapons, cost more than Terminators without the armor or deep strike. After all that hype, I can't see a reason to take them.
- Lord of Skulls has become a thematic option. He's more expensive than a Chaos Knight, who probably outclasses him in every way.
- Still no love for Preds / LRs / Vindicators. Considering they are outclassed by every Imperial option, why not just move them to Legends?
I think that I've figured out the answer to my own question of why the cost disparity between Legionaires with bolters and Noise Marines with bolters. The answer was obvious when I thought of it. It's licensing! GW has to pay a licensing fee to Slaanesh for using his trademarked name "Noise Marine". It's like generics vs name brand you pay more for the name brand due to reasons even though they are exactly the same product made in the same place by the same people. So, at least now, I have an explanation that makes sense.
- Still no love for Preds / LRs / Vindicators. Considering they are outclassed by every Imperial option, why not just move them to Legends?
I understand that GW is not too invested in keeping the furstborn motorpool competitive. But CSM rely much more on their Preds and Vindicaors as they have fewer alternatives. GW should have been more considerate here.
techsoldaten wrote: Not terribly impressed with what's come out, but wouldn't call it a complete loss.
We will be seeing a lot of lists consisting of Daemon Engines / Mutants.
Spoiler:
The Good
- Finally, we get 2W on PA troops. Huzzah!
- Abaddon seems like a steal. Impressive datasheet and points cost.
- Mutants and Torments seem very cheap for the points.
- Obliterators are cheaper, which is always appreciated.
- Venomcrawler as Fast Attack means you could take 6 Daemon Engines in a single detachment.
- Daemon Engines with WS 3 / BS3 makes them a legitimate threat.
- Legionnaires can still take weapons that are not on their sprue. Was concerned.
- Same with Havocs.
- MoE is now an elite, which could make him useful.
The Bad
- There's this blob of units that costs 25 - 35 ppm. Bikers, Spawn, Possessed, Terminators, Chosen, and Warp Talons. None of them are bad at what they do, nor are any of them that great for the points. I need the full rules to figure out if they're actually an upgrade over massed Mutants / Torments.
- The Daemon Prince datasheet seems like a misprint. Still a terror, but he should be better.
- Possessed are pretty expensive. Assuming 3W / T5 / D2 attacks, wondering they are truly worth it compared to double the number of Mutants.
- Even with 2W, Bikers don't seem worth it for the cost.
- The Heldrake still doesn't seem to have a role in most lists. He just doesn't do enough to justify the price.
- Sonic Blasters don't actually seem like an improvement. 1 less shot, you only get 2D at half range.
The Ugly
- No clue how this would compete against AdMech, Tau, Drukhari or Custodes. Not seeing anything to counter some of the more common lists for these factions, much less the most competitive. Even Speedfreaks will find Chaos weak.
- Looks like you need other Codexes for Cult Troops (other than Noise Marines.) Which means you're spending $50 on another Codex if you want to field them. Probably only an option for players who have both armies.
- Chaos Lords without Terminator armor are severely limited because f$%^ing jump packs are gone. Was hoping this was an inaccurate rumor.
- Chosen at 25 ppm, plus 10 ppm for combi weapons, cost more than Terminators without the armor or deep strike. After all that hype, I can't see a reason to take them.
- Lord of Skulls has become a thematic option. He's more expensive than a Chaos Knight, who probably outclasses him in every way.
- Still no love for Preds / LRs / Vindicators. Considering they are outclassed by every Imperial option, why not just move them to Legends?
Why the love for the mutants? 10 + 3 big fellas is the same cost as 20 cultists, needs to be in melee, output isn't stellar and they're rocking t4 6+ saves so will melt like butter.
Am i right in thinking that an infantry unit like termis can be buffed to T7 ? Bile can enhance them to T5, MoP can cast mutated invigoration on them for T6, a dark apostle can prey with feculent beseechment, giving them T7, if they have mark of nurgle. As alpha legion they get -1 to hit when more than 12" away. If one dies the MoP can use pact of flesh to bring it back. Another one which is injured gets d3 wounds back. Ten T7 termis with four combi meltas, two combi plasmas, six power fists, two chainfists sounds hilarious.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/18 12:25:31
Despite the lack of core or marks, Possessed for 28ppm is VERY good. The Daemonkin support from MoP's and rumoured Word Bearer strats make them very nice for that pricepoint.
Probably not a unit you'll be spamming 30 of, but I'm legit surprised they're under 30ppm.
I don't think anyone has said anything about this but (don't look H.B.M.C.) Terminators can't purchase chaos icons. I thought that the preview/rumors said that they could.
No, no, we still need to wait for some tournament results.
Remember - all complaints about loss of flavour, options, wargear etc. are invalid if it has a high win rate.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Bosskelot wrote: Despite the lack of core or marks, Possessed for 28ppm is VERY good. The Daemonkin support from MoP's and rumoured Word Bearer strats make them very nice for that pricepoint.
Probably not a unit you'll be spamming 30 of, but I'm legit surprised they're under 30ppm.
sorry, but i fail to see why i should swallow that cost, for possessed for a codex that just look like dogshit in any other regard.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Sersi wrote: Noise Marines and Sonic Weapons are "GOOD" now; +1 damage within half range!
Blastmaster:
Single Freq 48" Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Varied Freq 36" Assault D6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Sonic Blasters: 24" Assault 3/S4/AP-1/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Doom Siren: 12" Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto hits/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
They lost ignore cover, but it look like it was just baked into the weapons profile since the all went up -1 AP.
Noise marines did loose Music of the Apocalypse though.
Excrusciating Frequencies: [1CP]
Shooting Phase select an enemy unit, unmodofoed wound rolls of 6 cause a MW in addtion to any normal damage.
A unit cannot suffer more than 6 MW per phase as the result of this stratagem.
After make your attacks select on target unit that was hit with a sonic weapon this phase, .
Until your next turn that enemy unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend.
Then explain this to me- If I just want Noise Marines with boltguns then a unit of them is 210 points. If I want a unit of Legionaires with bolt guns and the mark of Slaanesh then I pay 195 points. They have the exact same stats and rules. Why am I paying 15 points more for an elite unit over a Troop unit with identical everythings? If the sonic weapons make that much difference then they should just up the price of them. As far as I have seen there isn't a special strat or anything that applies only to Noise Marines. So what gives?
Mark of Slaanesh costs 15 pts and is now baked into the price of the Noise Marines. Which ofcourse sucks if you play EC who supposedly get the MOS for free and Noise Marines as troops. I'm not to bothered for two reasons though. One the majority of EC are not Noise Marines they should be legionaries; and second points are constantly changing now so who can say it won't be changed eventually.
Urrghhhh....I don't even know where to start with this absolute mess.
Why are all of these unit options so....arbitrary? They don't even conform to GW's moronic, idiotic, and astoundingly stupid "you get what's in the box" paradigm. Why can't Chosen have a power fist, when there's one in the kit? Why can't a Raptor Aspiring Champion have lighting claws, when there's ten of them in the kit? Why can CSM have options that aren't even in the kit, but only one of each? Why, why, WHY?!!
Why are the Daemon Prince's rules based on the old kit, when there's a new one coming?
Why are the Traitor Guardsmen missing, despite gw touting how nice they'd be in a CSM army?
Why is the best thing that they could come up with for CSM a boring variation on loyalist rules? After all of this time?
All of this time! Two years of waiting. And this is the best that they could do? This travesty. This mess. This slap in the face.
Do CSM players mean nothing to them? Do they even want our money? Do they think that we'll shell out for anything?
So many questions. But the most important one: Horus Heresy, Grimdark Future, or older editions? Where will we take our models, our armies, our support?
Because it's pretty self evident that gwdoesn't want any of those things in 40k. And I see no reason based on this to give it to them.
Remnant of the Maraviglia: once per battle +1 attacks for models within 6" for 1 turn. Its used to allow re-roll all failed wounds range and melee. SKIP
Endless Grin: 6+++ save and if slain on 3+ on D6 you return with D3 wounds. It used to force -1 LD within 6", so it better? SKIP
Distortion: 2X strength profile, and a strength user profile but each hit counts at 2 hits. Its clipped off so we don't know the AP or damage for the profiles. MAYBE
Raiment Revulsive: friendly units within 6" can shoot and still perform an action, enemy units within 6" cannot start and action. Oof...it used to allow full re-rolls to hit, wound, and charge. TRASH
Armor of Abhorrence: 3" aura enemy units [except Titanic units] within cannot fallback on a 4+ D6 roll. It was the bearer could not be overwatched and 1 additional enemy model was forced to flee. GOOD
Fatal Sonancy: at the end on the movement phase select 1 enemy unit within 12" roll 6D6 for each 4+ they suffer 1 MW. Quite the glow up from Assault D6/S6/AP-2/Dam1, averaging 3 MW each turn. GOOD
SLAANESH RELIC:
Intoxicating Elixir: once per battle in the fight phase; +D3 attacks and you can't loose more than 3 wounds. It was +1S and +1 attack to your stat line, for +5 attacks of the game with better wounding. SKIP
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/18 13:54:34
Statline Changes: +1S, +1 W, +1 LD Mark of Slaanesh: fights first.
Doom Siren: new and improved! 12"/Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto-hits/+1 damage within half range.
Duelist Pride: when fight models with WS3+ gains +3 attacks and +1 damage, for 8 attacks at S5/AP-3/Dam3.
Armor of Shrieking Souls: 4++ save Finally! When slain roll 2D6 vs his killers LD, if the roll is lower they suffer D3 MW, otherwise D6MW.
Lash of Torment: in the fight phase select 1 enemy unit within 3", they are not eligile to fight this phase until after all eligible friendly units from your army have done so.
Lord of Chaos: friendly core units within 6" re-roll hit rolls of 1.
blood reaper wrote: People who believe in "Vote with your wallet" and forms of consumer protest live in a fantasy world. Please do not attempt """"""""""""embargos""""""""""""""" or these bizarre attempts at protest - they are an embarrassing waste of time.
What is most telling about this codex is that many of its previous defenders have now admitted yep, it's dogshit. I'm sure someone will, as part of the ever present cult of optimists, somehow find a way to argue it's good actually.
I'm usually accused of being a defender, but I'm just the "let's see the entire thing THEN be mad about it" camp. And I was right that there was more going on with Legionnaires than we were originally told so I feel somewhat vindicated there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Why are the Daemon Prince's rules based on the old kit, when there's a new one coming?
Because we weren't supposed to know about that kit until later this year when the Slaves to Darkness book was gearing up for release and we won't be able to get the model for months yet anyways?
Maybe we're mad because we saw a chance for GW to remove abilities/items that no one ever took and replace them with something that may be used/taken. An opportunity that GW blithely ignored.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Maybe we're mad because we saw a chance for GW to remove abilities/items that no one ever took and replace them with something that may be used/taken. An opportunity that GW blithely ignored.
I'm not telling people to not be mad, but at least let's not pretend some of this gak is new.
techsoldaten wrote: Not terribly impressed with what's come out, but wouldn't call it a complete loss.
We will be seeing a lot of lists consisting of Daemon Engines / Mutants.
Why the love for the mutants? 10 + 3 big fellas is the same cost as 20 cultists, needs to be in melee, output isn't stellar and they're rocking t4 6+ saves so will melt like butter.
"Love" overstates my position.
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
techsoldaten wrote: Not terribly impressed with what's come out, but wouldn't call it a complete loss.
We will be seeing a lot of lists consisting of Daemon Engines / Mutants.
Why the love for the mutants? 10 + 3 big fellas is the same cost as 20 cultists, needs to be in melee, output isn't stellar and they're rocking t4 6+ saves so will melt like butter.
"Love" overstates my position.
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
They need to not get nuked in one turn to take advantage of that regeneration. And they've got paper-thin saves in one of the killiest and most lethal edition in 40k. And there's only 16 of them
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Why is the Deamon prince worse than the DG/TS one? or are they getting day one nerfs?
Its the same problem DG had, they've removed the options, no jump pack characters, no special or melee weapons on a lot of units. If they'd left the weapon options and just had Forge World do the cheaper upgrade sprue (cause everyone will source them elsewhere anyway) it would look like a damn good power armour book, cause everything none powered armoured is released at a massive boost, DE, CW, tau etc.
Traitor guard should be a guard supplement, shouldn't be in this book, I hate that they are releasing more cultist units that will be the most efficient units until a few months before our next codex, seriously GW put these in with traitor guard, leave the marine book for marines.
- Still no love for Preds / LRs / Vindicators. Considering they are outclassed by every Imperial option, why not just move them to Legends?
I understand that GW is not too invested in keeping the furstborn motorpool competitive. But CSM rely much more on their Preds and Vindicaors as they have fewer alternatives. GW should have been more considerate here.
I think it's because they're scared people will complain if the CSM versions have better stats than the loyalist ones, though it would be a super easy fix:
Filled with experimental Dark Mechnicum upgrades and demonic essence these vehicles are a far cry from the Standard Template machines that once rolled across Terra
Done. You converted a goopy Pred? It's got better stats because demons.
You want a non-demony looking Pred? It's got better stats because Dark Adept Bob had 10k years to put in better capacitors and nitrous.
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy.
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
They need to not get nuked in one turn to take advantage of that regeneration. And they've got paper-thin saves in one of the killiest and most lethal edition in 40k. And there's only 16 of them
Well we have our first unironic "Wait and see!" comment.
What exactly should we be waiting for? For GW to un-feth the Chosen entry? To un-feth the Raptor entry? The Terminator entry? Chaos Lords? The lack of Traitor Guard? The absurd exploding 6's Doctrines? The Daemon Prince entry? The CSM weapon options?
What are we waiting to see???
You think seeing all the relics or strats will suddenly make the weapon limitations any less stupid? Will it suddenly let Chosen units take Power Fists? Will it let Raptor Champs take Lightning Claws? Or Chaos Lords, for that matter? Will it inject a level of consistency into the melee weapon options, where they're either all unique, or all Accursed Weapons, rather than that literally changing from squad to squad?
What could we possibly have not seen that will be worth the wait?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/18 15:11:42
