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10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
They need to not get nuked in one turn to take advantage of that regeneration. And they've got paper-thin saves in one of the killiest and most lethal edition in 40k. And there's only 16 of them
Not sure how to respond.
Are you saying Cultists are an upgrade?
I'm simply stating that the mutatns are probably going to be bad too
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well we have our first unironic "Wait and see!" comment.
What exactly should we be waiting for? For GW to un-feth the Chosen entry? To un-feth the Raptor entry? The Terminator entry? Chaos Lords? The lack of Traitor Guard? The absurd exploding 6's Doctrines? The Daemon Prince entry? The CSM weapon options?
What are we waiting to see???
You think seeing all the relics or strats will suddenly make the weapon limitations any less stupid? Will it suddenly let Chosen units take Power Fists? Will it let Raptor Champs take Lightning Claws? Or Chaos Lords, for that matter? Will it inject a level of consistency into the melee weapon options, where they're either all unique, or all Accursed Weapons, rather than that literally changing from squad to squad?
What could we possibly have not seen that will be worth the wait?
I'm waiting to see the CSM Lord datasheet and the Night Lord Legion rules.
Picking the legion that wears bat wings on their heads meant I'd already resolved to have weak rules so I'm just trying to work out what options I'll get to run with.
blood reaper wrote: People who believe in "Vote with your wallet" and forms of consumer protest live in a fantasy world. Please do not attempt """"""""""""embargos""""""""""""""" or these bizarre attempts at protest - they are an embarrassing waste of time.
What is most telling about this codex is that many of its previous defenders have now admitted yep, it's dogshit. I'm sure someone will, as part of the ever present cult of optimists, somehow find a way to argue it's good actually.
I'm usually accused of being a defender, but I'm just the "let's see the entire thing THEN be mad about it" camp. And I was right that there was more going on with Legionnaires than we were originally told so I feel somewhat vindicated there.
You feel vindicated that dual plasma guns or dual heavy bolters are invalid now, or that a trooper can't take a plasma pistol and chainsword?
I'm really not sure what you're patting yourself on the back for.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/18 15:33:55
blood reaper wrote: People who believe in "Vote with your wallet" and forms of consumer protest live in a fantasy world. Please do not attempt """"""""""""embargos""""""""""""""" or these bizarre attempts at protest - they are an embarrassing waste of time.
What is most telling about this codex is that many of its previous defenders have now admitted yep, it's dogshit. I'm sure someone will, as part of the ever present cult of optimists, somehow find a way to argue it's good actually.
I'm usually accused of being a defender, but I'm just the "let's see the entire thing THEN be mad about it" camp. And I was right that there was more going on with Legionnaires than we were originally told so I feel somewhat vindicated there.
You feel vindicated that dual plasma guns or dual heavy bolters are invalid now, or that a trooper can't take a plasma pistol and chainsword?
I'm really not sure what you're patting yourself on the back for.
I said "partially vindicated". And my vindication is that there were more melee options than the playtester info claimed is why. I was certain they'd have access to the Melee Weapons list, and there is the daemonic blade option you can use for conversion option s like if I stick chainglaives on my champions.
I chose a legion whose gimmick is leadership manipulation in a game that regularly makes it pretty damn useless so forgive me for assuming I was going to be shafted anyways.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/18 15:39:46
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
They need to not get nuked in one turn to take advantage of that regeneration. And they've got paper-thin saves in one of the killiest and most lethal edition in 40k. And there's only 16 of them
Not sure how to respond.
Are you saying Cultists are an upgrade?
Cultists have (for the same price) can hurt you at 24", they are capable of more than just standing there soaking hits. It's more or less the same number of wounds to chew through too. I'm not sure either are great tbh.
Sonic Blasters don't actually seem like an improvement. 1 less shot, you only get 2D at half range.
They're still Assault 3 so same number of shots. They gained AP-1 but lost ignore cover so better against every thing except AOC in cover. While damage 2 at half range is just a straight buff. It's a shame though that they lost Music of the Apocalypse.
Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/18 16:18:27
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
I'd be impressed if it was more than S4.
As it stands, it's a multi-shot anti-MEQ gun. And you have to be in charge range to one-shot a Marine.
For the points, a Noise Marine now compares with Heavy Intercessor with a Hellstorm Bolt Rifle. 30" Assault 3 S5 D1. With Deathwatch Specialisms, it can get 2++ to hit, 3+ to wound, D2 AP-3 against any selected battlefield role (and that can change during the battle.)
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
I'd be impressed if it was more than S4.
As it stands, it's a multi-shot anti-MEQ gun. And you have to be in charge range to one-shot a Marine.
For the points, a Noise Marine now compares with Heavy Intercessor with a Hellstorm Bolt Rifle. 30" Assault 3 S5 D1. With Deathwatch Specialisms, it can get 2++ to hit, 3+ to wound, D2 AP-3 against any selected battlefield role (and that can change during the battle.)
At least they're not auto-boltgun equivalents anymore.
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
loosing the re roll to wound and +1 to wound is rough, also into armour of contempt , we also dont know if endless cacophony is still in for the fire again. They might be better under low investment but dont think they will match the damage output that they used to have. I might end up benching mine as most of my regular opponents are death guard terminator blocks and paladin grey knight bricks so spamming them with 1 damage will be rough. Though the mortals will help, probably have better luck going chosen/terminators and popping cruel duellists and death hex.
I am leaning towards thinking endless might still be in the book considering the mortal wound buff explicitly caps off mortal wounds to just 6 in that phase. Could probably see it be limited to legion/core/infantry/slaanesh. One annoying thing I do see is some spells are annyoingly locked, like Delightful agonies being on [legion] slaanesh which if you cant mark vehicles or dreads might be annoying. I do want to see if there are also ways of having some characters like dark commune not use up a HQ slot, otherwise I can see chaos running into its old issue of people only taking the same 3 HQ every time.
I think ill probably drop my old sorcerer and just take 2x 5 legionaries with books to just sit backboard casting prescience and agonies on havocs. Relics being mid is a shame, can see uses for some but now that they will all cost 1 CP ill probably just skip relics all together and buy more warlord traits if those are good.
I think the thing that bothers me most, as others have stated, is just the sheer inconsistency of it.
Chaos Marines could be split into 3 sections.
The New, The Clunky, and The Old.
The New is straightforward - it's the new kits. Possessed, Cultists, the stuff they want to (and likely will) sell plenty of. Rules seem to be cohesive and decent. Easy to forego having lots of weird weapon options when everything has mutated limbs or basic autopistols and knives and such. Oblits getting their more straightforward weapon profiles and Venomcrawlers going to FA are good things that fit here too.
The Clunky - Here's where the rest of those 25-30ppm units ended up. The Chosen, Terminators, Raptors, Warp Talons. Legionaries fit here as well. Each entry has more bullet points than it needs to have, all for the sake of being able to build what's in the box. At this point, they might as well just clump all of the ranged weapons that aren't bolters into 'Warp-Infused Weapons' to match Accursed weapons. Make them range 24, rapid fire 2, str 5, ap -2, damage 2 and cost 15 points per upgrade. At least then you're not invalidating someone's group of Chosen or Terminators that they bought last year to fit with the Codex that they were desperately trying to keep playing until now.
The Old - Bikers, Rhinos, Vindicators, Predators, Land Raiders, all the stuff that GW hasn't yet updated and so somehow, for some ungodly reason, gets to keep its legacy rules, despite not matching the design philosophy of the above 2 sections. Why in the world do you have to pay points for the Vindicator Siege Shield? This is all stuff that just needs to be updated and just points at this codex being a hold-over. I can only pray that the new 30k vehicles will soon have a new Chaos sprue to bring them into the modern world of the 2000s. In the case of Bikers, you can't even make any of those options out of the box. There are no melee or special weapons or even icons in that box! It's just 3 dudes with combi-bolters. That's it.
They split the Codex up into these 3 sections, gave them to 3 different writers. The New guy had an easy time, the Old guy got to copy-paste all the old stuff, and the Clunky guy overthought everything with the 'YOU MUST OBEY THE CONTENTS OF THE BOX' as his motivational poster hanging above his desk.
I was part of the 'wait and see' group, but now that I've seen what these datasheets look like, I can confidently say that this is not it, fam. Legion traits don't matter. Actual effectiveness of the Codex in the meta doesn't matter. This codex will be un-fun for me to play because of how inconsistent one datasheet is to the next. That's the bottom line. When I have to change gameplay philosophies between using my Terminators to using my Havocs or Legionaries to using my Possessed, you've fethed up as a codex writer.
You look at Space Marines, at Admech, at Eldar, and theres a mix of good and bad in all of those codexes, but one thing they clearly have is CONSISTENCY, so that when you go from shooting with your Dragoons to your Vanguard, you're rolling with the same rules and there's no surprises. When you go from chopping things with your Chosen to chopping things with your Cultists to chopping things with your Legionaries to chopping things with your Possessed to chopping things with your Maulerfiend or whatever else, every single entry is jarringly different.
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
loosing the re roll to wound and +1 to wound is rough, also into armour of contempt , we also dont know if endless cacophony is still in for the fire again. They might be better under low investment but dont think they will match the damage output that they used to have. I might end up benching mine as most of my regular opponents are death guard terminator blocks and paladin grey knight bricks so spamming them with 1 damage will be rough. Though the mortals will help, probably have better luck going chosen/terminators and popping cruel duellists and death hex.
I am leaning towards thinking endless might still be in the book considering the mortal wound buff explicitly caps off mortal wounds to just 6 in that phase. Could probably see it be limited to legion/core/infantry/slaanesh. One annoying thing I do see is some spells are annyoingly locked, like Delightful agonies being on [legion] slaanesh which if you cant mark vehicles or dreads might be annoying. I do want to see if there are also ways of having some characters like dark commune not use up a HQ slot, otherwise I can see chaos running into its old issue of people only taking the same 3 HQ every time.
I think ill probably drop my old sorcerer and just take 2x 5 legionaries with books to just sit backboard casting prescience and agonies on havocs. Relics being mid is a shame, can see uses for some but now that they will all cost 1 CP ill probably just skip relics all together and buy more warlord traits if those are good.
Clockworkchris leaks have been dead accurate so far; and he said Endless Cacophony is gone. Only Legionaries have shoot twice or fight twice strat; and it 'll be 2CP at mnimum.
Excrusiating Frequencies say "no unit can suffer more than 6 MW"; but the strat effects a friendly unit so you could split fire into two seperate units and for a max of 12 MW total.
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
loosing the re roll to wound and +1 to wound is rough, also into armour of contempt , we also dont know if endless cacophony is still in for the fire again. They might be better under low investment but dont think they will match the damage output that they used to have. I might end up benching mine as most of my regular opponents are death guard terminator blocks and paladin grey knight bricks so spamming them with 1 damage will be rough. Though the mortals will help, probably have better luck going chosen/terminators and popping cruel duellists and death hex.
I am leaning towards thinking endless might still be in the book considering the mortal wound buff explicitly caps off mortal wounds to just 6 in that phase. Could probably see it be limited to legion/core/infantry/slaanesh. One annoying thing I do see is some spells are annyoingly locked, like Delightful agonies being on [legion] slaanesh which if you cant mark vehicles or dreads might be annoying. I do want to see if there are also ways of having some characters like dark commune not use up a HQ slot, otherwise I can see chaos running into its old issue of people only taking the same 3 HQ every time.
I think ill probably drop my old sorcerer and just take 2x 5 legionaries with books to just sit backboard casting prescience and agonies on havocs. Relics being mid is a shame, can see uses for some but now that they will all cost 1 CP ill probably just skip relics all together and buy more warlord traits if those are good.
Clockworkchris leaks have been dead accurate so far; and he said Endless Cacophony is gone. Only Legionaries have shoot twice or fight twice strat; and it 'll be 2CP at mnimum.
Excrusiating Frequencies say "no unit can suffer more than 6 MW"; but the strat effects a friendly unit so you could split fire into two seperate units and for a max of 12 MW total.
You'd need...
6 sixes to-wound
36 hits
37.03 shots at 2+ RR1s to do the max of 6.
Considering they're capped at 10 now, if I remember correctly, I don't think split-firing would help. You're unlikely to max the Mortal Wounds even with a full squad not splitting fire.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I think the thing that bothers me most, as others have stated, is just the sheer inconsistency of it.
Chaos Marines could be split into 3 sections.
The New, The Clunky, and The Old.
The New is straightforward - it's the new kits. Possessed, Cultists, the stuff they want to (and likely will) sell plenty of. Rules seem to be cohesive and decent. Easy to forego having lots of weird weapon options when everything has mutated limbs or basic autopistols and knives and such. Oblits getting their more straightforward weapon profiles and Venomcrawlers going to FA are good things that fit here too.
The Clunky - Here's where the rest of those 25-30ppm units ended up. The Chosen, Terminators, Raptors, Warp Talons. Legionaries fit here as well. Each entry has more bullet points than it needs to have, all for the sake of being able to build what's in the box. At this point, they might as well just clump all of the ranged weapons that aren't bolters into 'Warp-Infused Weapons' to match Accursed weapons. Make them range 24, rapid fire 2, str 5, ap -2, damage 2 and cost 15 points per upgrade. At least then you're not invalidating someone's group of Chosen or Terminators that they bought last year to fit with the Codex that they were desperately trying to keep playing until now.
The Old - Bikers, Rhinos, Vindicators, Predators, Land Raiders, all the stuff that GW hasn't yet updated and so somehow, for some ungodly reason, gets to keep its legacy rules, despite not matching the design philosophy of the above 2 sections. Why in the world do you have to pay points for the Vindicator Siege Shield? This is all stuff that just needs to be updated and just points at this codex being a hold-over. I can only pray that the new 30k vehicles will soon have a new Chaos sprue to bring them into the modern world of the 2000s. In the case of Bikers, you can't even make any of those options out of the box. There are no melee or special weapons or even icons in that box! It's just 3 dudes with combi-bolters. That's it.
They split the Codex up into these 3 sections, gave them to 3 different writers. The New guy had an easy time, the Old guy got to copy-paste all the old stuff, and the Clunky guy overthought everything with the 'YOU MUST OBEY THE CONTENTS OF THE BOX' as his motivational poster hanging above his desk.
I was part of the 'wait and see' group, but now that I've seen what these datasheets look like, I can confidently say that this is not it, fam. Legion traits don't matter. Actual effectiveness of the Codex in the meta doesn't matter. This codex will be un-fun for me to play because of how inconsistent one datasheet is to the next. That's the bottom line. When I have to change gameplay philosophies between using my Terminators to using my Havocs or Legionaries to using my Possessed, you've fethed up as a codex writer.
You look at Space Marines, at Admech, at Eldar, and theres a mix of good and bad in all of those codexes, but one thing they clearly have is CONSISTENCY, so that when you go from shooting with your Dragoons to your Vanguard, you're rolling with the same rules and there's no surprises. When you go from chopping things with your Chosen to chopping things with your Cultists to chopping things with your Legionaries to chopping things with your Possessed to chopping things with your Maulerfiend or whatever else, every single entry is jarringly different.
That's not Chaos. That's just failure.
Don't forget the fact the Chosen don't even match what's in the box, given you can't give anyone Power Fists, despite the fact they come with one in the box
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Anyone claiming these new changes are gonna make the game easier for new players has to have some kind of dementia. Some of this stuff is incomprehensible.
For example - the Terminator datasheet. Lightning Claws? Nope - accursed weapon. Well, at least you can build what's in the bo-NOPE! You can't mix accursed weapons and power fists (power fists are accursed weapons on other datasheets btw).
There's other weird changes too. Noise Marines can't take a second Blastmaster anymore - why? Raptors can't have lightning claws (I'm sure a GW defender can explain this is good because some WAAC player won a game using it and then killed their entire family). Other units are clearly not going to be legal in the future (ala, bikers).
Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/18 17:40:19
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
So, now the Legends Sonic Helbrutes has two Blast masters with 6 shots at 48"/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/+1 damage within half range, and a Doom Siren with D6 shots at 12"/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/+1 damage within half range.
Six S8/AP-3/Dam 4 shot at 24" + three on average S5/AP-3/Dam 2 shots within 6" for 115 pts. In addition to whatever the fist or power scourge do now.
Also with the removal of the blast keyword you can now shoot those Blastmasters in melee., and ofcourse if your in melee you within half range so they're cranked to 11 for maximum damage.
blood reaper wrote: Anyone claiming these new changes are gonna make the game easier for new players has to have some kind of dementia. Some of this stuff is incomprehensible.
For example - the Terminator datasheet. Lightning Claws? Nope - accursed weapon. Well, at least you can build what's in the bo-NOPE! You can't mix accursed weapons and power fists (power fists are accursed weapons on other datasheets btw).
There's other weird changes too. Noise Marines can't take a second Blastmaster anymore - why? Raptors can't have lightning claws (I'm sure a GW defender can explain this is good because some WAAC player won a game using it and then killed their entire family). Other units are clearly not going to be legal in the future (ala, bikers).
Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Can we discuss Abaddon's weird "Strength equal to or at least double the Toughness" rule? So it only applies to EXACTLY S6 attacks or S12 and above? Why does it not work on S7/8/9/10/11 attacks? Am I drastically misreading it?
blood reaper wrote: Anyone claiming these new changes are gonna make the game easier for new players has to have some kind of dementia. Some of this stuff is incomprehensible.
For example - the Terminator datasheet. Lightning Claws? Nope - accursed weapon. Well, at least you can build what's in the bo-NOPE! You can't mix accursed weapons and power fists (power fists are accursed weapons on other datasheets btw).
There's other weird changes too. Noise Marines can't take a second Blastmaster anymore - why? Raptors can't have lightning claws (I'm sure a GW defender can explain this is good because some WAAC player won a game using it and then killed their entire family). Other units are clearly not going to be legal in the future (ala, bikers).
Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Can we discuss Abaddon's weird "Strength equal to or at least double the Toughness" rule? So it only applies to EXACTLY S6 attacks or S12 and above? Why does it not work on S7/8/9/10/11 attacks? Am I drastically misreading it?
blood reaper wrote: Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Clearly they don't intend for you to compare the two. You're just supposed to purchase the one that appeals to you more based on the box cover or the blurb you read on the webstore, assemble them however strikes your fancy (while closely following the printed instructions included in the box of course), then look up the corresponding rules in the codex so you can field them in your games!
