Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news.

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**ClockworkZion**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Termies can't get Marks?

None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.

I'm guessing that anything with CHAOS UNDIVIDED in its FACTION KEYWORDS can take a Mark. That way, you replace CHAOS UNDIVIDED with KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH, or SLAANESH. It's just a guess, though.

That's my assumption as well. I'm also assuming Marks are paid on a per-unit basis.

Looking at the top of the Chosen leak we can see the bottom of the Possessed sheet, and it looks like they don't have Chaos Undivided but curiously they don't have to buy a Mark, so I wonder if that's accounted for in unit cost already.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Random Theory Time: Marks of Chaos will let units get access to other parts of the Let the Galaxy Burn table even off turn. This guess is based on the fact the rules for the different phases call out the ability for units to get bonuses out of phase, and the Legion traits we know of don't provide bonuses to those phases. Maybe Undivided gets you a +1 to triggering the effect instead of letting you get out of sequence buffs.

**Gadzilla666**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Termies can't get Marks?

None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.

I'm guessing that anything with CHAOS UNDIVIDED in its FACTION KEYWORDS can take a Mark. That way, you replace CHAOS UNDIVIDED with KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH, or SLAANESH. It's just a guess, though.

That's my assumption as well. I'm also assuming Marks are paid on a per-unit basis.

Looking at the top of the Chosen leak we can see the bottom of the Possessed sheet, and it looks like they don't have Chaos Undivided but curiously they don't have to buy a Mark, so I wonder if that's accounted for in unit cost already.

Ummm....ok, I'm looking at the image your referring to. Where does it say that they don't have to buy a Mark? I can't find that.

**ClockworkZion**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Termies can't get Marks?

None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.

I'm guessing that anything with CHAOS UNDIVIDED in its FACTION KEYWORDS can take a Mark. That way, you replace CHAOS UNDIVIDED with KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH, or SLAANESH. It's just a guess, though.

That's my assumption as well. I'm also assuming Marks are paid on a per-unit basis.

Looking at the top of the Chosen leak we can see the bottom of the Possessed sheet, and it looks like they don't have Chaos Undivided but curiously they don't have to buy a Mark, so I wonder if that's accounted for in unit cost already.

Ummm....ok, I'm looking at the image your referring to. Where does it say that they don't have to buy a Mark? I can't find that.

Points costs. Only the Daemon Prince is forced to buy a Mark.

**Rogerio134134**

Honestly just think I'll run my iron warriors army as whatever legion I feel like running at events etc. I never normally do that but I'm not bothered anymore, if I want to play as black legion then I'll just those rules. Took me years to paint a massive iron warriors collection and I'm not repainting stuff or being locked to a certain set of rules.

**Not Online!!!**

BrainFireBob wrote:

I think the new marketing was collecting feedback, and saw the constant angry remarks about missing options in kits.

When Death Guard dropped, they got the first taste of negative feedback- they'd misunderstood and gone the wrong way (people wanted more in the kits, not to be restricted to the kit- they took it as a envy/barrier to entry issue, not a "ripoff" issue), but they were already committed to the new paradigm for the next two years. A lot of CSM players weighed in on that.

Horus Heresy shows them testing the opposite strategy- bolt-on kits.

I think they're trying to "hide" this release in their HH numbers rather thsn fess up they screwed the pooch for an entire faction

EDIT: On reflection, I'm going to guess that marketing wants to reverse course, but someone in the design studio knows that making units uniform- and the basic army building block, not the model- is how they get the community to accept power level.

if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.

**ClockworkZion**

Not Online!!! wrote:
BrainFireBob wrote:

I think the new marketing was collecting feedback, and saw the constant angry remarks about missing options in kits.

When Death Guard dropped, they got the first taste of negative feedback- they'd misunderstood and gone the wrong way (people wanted more in the kits, not to be restricted to the kit- they took it as a envy/barrier to entry issue, not a "ripoff" issue), but they were already committed to the new paradigm for the next two years. A lot of CSM players weighed in on that.

Horus Heresy shows them testing the opposite strategy- bolt-on kits.

I think they're trying to "hide" this release in their HH numbers rather thsn fess up they screwed the pooch for an entire faction

EDIT: On reflection, I'm going to guess that marketing wants to reverse course, but someone in the design studio knows that making units uniform- and the basic army building block, not the model- is how they get the community to accept power level.

if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.

It feels like in the Post-Kirby era GW has been throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and some sticks, some doesn't.

**Not Online!!!**

ClockworkZion wrote:

It feels like in the Post-Kirby era GW has been throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and some sticks, some doesn't.

Unless you are CSM, then they repeat the same thing that isn't working for the playerbase of the faction since 4th.

There is also nothing wrong with throwing things at a wall and see what sticks, problem is however, that doing so without actually communicating with your custommer base is bound to lead to some thrown in windows instead of something that sticks.

Also some of the recent stuff is just blatant nostalgia baiting, like gsc and squats, which tbh i liked the old version more then these in regards to squats, GSC they did do propperly atleast.

**Sim-Life**

Not Online!!! wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

It feels like in the Post-Kirby era GW has been throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and some sticks, some doesn't.

Unless you are CSM, then they repeat the same thing that isn't working for the playerbase of the faction since 4th.

There is also nothing wrong with throwing things at a wall and see what sticks, problem is however, that doing so without actually communicating with your custommer base is bound to lead to some thrown in windows instead of something that sticks.

Also some of the recent stuff is just blatant nostalgia baiting, like gsc and squats, which tbh i liked the old version more then these in regards to squats, GSC they did do propperly atleast.

I agree there isn't anything wrong with experimenting with what works and what doesn't. Warhammer isn't generally a flash-in-the-pan hobby where you assemble a 2000pts army and you're done forever, most of us are in this for the long haul so waiting a few years for stuff to improve is par for the course. But GW has a problem where when the throw stuff things DO stick to the wall, then they scrape it off, put it in the bin, clean the wall and the throw more things at it.

**Jidmah**

Not Online!!! wrote:
if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.

Points is not superior to PL when GW is worse at balancing points than they are at balancing PL

**kodos**

Not Online!!! wrote:
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.

if we would play a different game, the points there are superior and offer balance by granularity

yet this is about 40k, were balance is off not matter if you use points or PL

fun fact, AoS use PL and is better balanced than 40k, which means GW is doing a better job with PL so those are the superior system inside the GW bubble, it does not matter that someone else is doing a better job with points than GW does with PL

**Not Online!!!**

Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.

Points is not superior to PL when GW is worse at balancing points than they are at balancing PL

from personal experience, no decidedly not in 40k

kodos wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.

if we would play a different game, the points there are superior and offer balance by granularity

yet this is about 40k, were balance is off not matter if you use points or PL

fun fact, AoS use PL and is better balanced than 40k, which means GW is doing a better job with PL so those are the superior system inside the GW bubble, it does not matter that someone else is doing a better job with points than GW does with PL

Meanwhile we got 30k which looks atleast on paper so far as having done a better job than both.

but yeah overall so long gw ruleswriting sucks it ultimativly doesn't matter, of course unless the cookie cutterism that gets favoured by PL will affect whole armies.
which it does so it is the inferior system.

**kodos**

Also Lord of the Rings is the superior system compared to 40k and AoS

just the difference if the designer play their own game or not

and PL being less balanced in 40k is not really a thing, it favors different stuff so we can start nitpicking the small little differences with the result that balance is terrible for both
just that the other is 0.5 more terrible does not make it better just terrible for different people

**Not Online!!!**

kodos wrote:
Also Lord of the Rings is the superior system compared to 40k and AoS

just the difference if the designer play their own game or not

and PL being less balanced in 40k is not really a thing, it favors different stuff so we can start nitpicking the small little differences with the result that balance is terrible for both
just that the other is 0.5 more terrible does not make it better just terrible for different people

When one system literally leads to cookie cutter entries, out of a wargaming perspective, then you can't really argue that it is not worse than the other.

**kodos**

the difference between PL and Points at the moment regarding balance is if you argue that 1999 points are better balanced than 2000.

it is not better, just shifting the problems around

yes points could help, if GW would actually care to use them
and as long as they don't care we would be better of with PL (as looking to AoS were weapon upgrades are not always an auto-include just because they are free)

**Gadzilla666**

Ok, Auspex Tactics just released a video on the new KLOS rules. So, apparently, there's more leaks out there that we haven't seen.

Short take on the KLOS (watch the video for better information. I didn't memorize this stuff): Tougher: 30W, 2+ probably a 5++ (Daemon engine). More killy at range and melee.

Personally, I'll stick with my Fellblade. You guys do you.

**Not Online!!!**

kodos wrote:
the difference between PL and Points at the moment regarding balance is if you argue that 1999 points are better balanced than 2000.

it is not better, just shifting the problems around

yes points could help, if GW would actually care to use them
and as long as they don't care we would be better of with PL (as looking to AoS were weapon upgrades are not always an auto-include just because they are free)

Again, GW balancing makes it irrelevant, as stated, however design of unit entries is impacted by it, since it leads to a more simplified e.g. optionless entry being favoured.

And since it doesn't matter since GW can not into balance in 40k seemingly, i'd rather keep the old nonsense and have my infantry not invalidated for doubling up on specials and heavys on my legionaires and full flamer / melta chosen.

**Wha-Mu-077**

Of course points are a better system due to being much more granular and allowing for much better fine-tuning of everything, this shouldn't even be a point of discussion due to how obvious it is.

GW, however, fails to capitalise on any of the potential advantages the points system provides.

**kodos**

Not Online!!! wrote:
And since it doesn't matter since GW can not into balance in 40k seemingly, i'd rather keep the old nonsense and have my infantry not invalidated for doubling up on specials and heavys on my legionaires and full flamer / melta chosen.

I see no point an keeping the illusion of balance just because people are used to it and pretend that any game with points must be balanced

telling that any car with 4 wheels is good racing and that 4 square wheels are better than 3 instead of recognizing that it does not matter if there are 3 or 4 wheels, as long as they are square the car won't be good

**techsoldaten**

On the subject of autoincludes: has anyone noticed how many HQs now cost about 90 points?

Warpsmiths used to be the go-to for a cheap HQ. Now Fabius, Exalted Champion, Warpsmith, Cypher, Sorcerer, and Chaos Lord all come in around 90, some have additional options bringing them over 100.

If there was going to be an autoinclude, it's probably not Abaddon at 300 points.

Cypher seems like a steal. I need to see his datasheet, but he might be Abaddon-lite.

**BorderCountess**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.

Points is not superior to PL when GW is worse at balancing points than they are at balancing PL

from personal experience, no decidedly not in 40k

It sometimes feels as though you forget that your personal experience is not the end-all, be-all of what is better. Perhaps it's better for you, but people who are much less competitive or may be newer to things probably would prefer power levels as it doesn't force them to have to justify every single option they may want to include. For instance, they don't have to agonize over whether or not equipping an Intercessor Sergeant with a thunder hammer is worth the points.

"Does he look cool? Go for it!"

Gah, sometimes I think a lot of you guys have forgotten how to have fun playing a game.

**xttz**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, Auspex Tactics just released a video on the new KLOS rules. So, apparently, there's more leaks out there that we haven't seen.

Short take on the KLOS (watch the video for better information. I didn't memorize this stuff): Tougher: 30W, 2+ probably a 5++ (Daemon engine). More killy at range and melee.

Personally, I'll stick with my Fellblade. You guys do you.

KLOS:

Spoiler:

Also CSM get improved Vindicators and !!T9!! Land Raiders

Spoiler:

**Gadzilla666**

Whoa! And Dd6+2 lascannons! And Demolisher Cannons are now d3+3 shots and AP-4!

They better apply these changes to our fw stuff fast.

They've finally broken the T8 barrier!

**MajorWesJanson**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Whoa! And Dd6+2 lascannons! And Demolisher Cannons are now d3+3 shots and AP-4!

They better apply these changes to our fw stuff fast.

They've finally broken the T8 barrier!

Long term I'm hoping for t12 for Lan Raider equivalents, but this is a good start.

**xttz**

Seems there's also a psychic power that's valid for use on Land Raiders for +1 T, bringing them to T10

**Jidmah**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Whoa! And Dd6+2 lascannons! And Demolisher Cannons are now d3+3 shots and AP-4!

They better apply these changes to our fw stuff fast.

They've finally broken the T8 barrier!

Sorry man, not a snowball's chance in hell. FW is just legends 2.0 at this point. You'll be lucky if they properly apply the traitoris astartes keyword to all units.

**Gadzilla666**

xttz wrote:
Seems there's also a psychic power that's valid for use on Land Raiders for +1 T, bringing them to T10

Malefic Discipline. Mutated Invigoration. Warp Charge of 6.

Ok. I need one MoP, and one Warpsmith standing behind the Fellblade........

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Whoa! And Dd6+2 lascannons! And Demolisher Cannons are now d3+3 shots and AP-4!

They better apply these changes to our fw stuff fast.

They've finally broken the T8 barrier!

Sorry man, not a snowball's chance in hell. FW is just legends 2.0 at this point. You'll be lucky if they properly apply the traitoris astartes keyword to all units.

Don't need it. The psychic power only requires it being a <LEGION> unit, and it already is. 26 T9 2+ wounds with AoC and Smokescreen. I need to do some math.......

Edit: 54 Dark/Light Lance shots for a "confirmed kill". 45 melta shots at melta range. Tyrant Volcano cannon averages 5.556 damage.

How much AT did you bring?

**Jidmah**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Don't need it. The psychic power only requires it being a <LEGION> unit, and it already is. 26 T9 2+ wounds with AoC and Smokescreen. I need to do some math.......

I was referring to the stats updates. Currently GW is doing the absolute minimum necessary to keep the FW models alive, and carrying over updated profiles or new rules is absolutely not part of that.

For every single codex since DG people were hoping for updates on their corresponding FW models and every single faction has been disappointed, from DG to drukhari to orks to custodes to tau to knights.

And yet, for every new codex, you see people eagerly awaiting their FW updates just to be disappointed when GW does yet another minimum effort update. If you're lucky your fellblade gets "Let the Galaxy Burn" and remains unchanged otherwise, but it might not even get that much.

**Gadzilla666**

Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Don't need it. The psychic power only requires it being a <LEGION> unit, and it already is. 26 T9 2+ wounds with AoC and Smokescreen. I need to do some math.......

I was referring to the stats updates. Currently GW is doing the absolute minimum necessary to keep the FW models alive, and carrying over updated profiles or new rules is absolutely not part of that.

For every single codex since DG people were hoping for updates on their corresponding FW models and every single faction has been disappointed, from DG to drukhari to orks to custodes to tau to knights.

And yet, for every new codex, you see people eagerly awaiting their FW updates just to be disappointed when GW does yet another minimum effort update. If you're lucky your fellblade gets "Let the Galaxy Burn" and remains unchanged otherwise, but it might not even get that much.

Yes, I know. If you've noticed, I complain about that a lot. But right now, I've finally found something in this codex that I like. So stop harshing my buzz.

**Not Online!!!**

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.

Points is not superior to PL when GW is worse at balancing points than they are at balancing PL

from personal experience, no decidedly not in 40k

It sometimes feels as though you forget that your personal experience is not the end-all, be-all of what is better. Perhaps it's better for you, but people who are much less competitive or may be newer to things probably would prefer power levels as it doesn't force them to have to justify every single option they may want to include. For instance, they don't have to agonize over whether or not equipping an Intercessor Sergeant with a thunder hammer is worth the points.

"Does he look cool? Go for it!"

Gah, sometimes I think a lot of you guys have forgotten how to have fun playing a game.

Has flamer chosen and over 60 of the normal legionaires of the new CSM variety not KT, gets called competitive?
ok then.

just because PL does allow you to slap on whats cool. it does also lower unit options to make units cool by removing a units options and standardising them due to how the design of the entries is impacted by it as a measurement.

**Undead_Love-Machine**

Gadzilla666 wrote:

...stop harshing my buzz.

I wish that everybody in this thread would take your advice

I absolutely love that Chaos Land Raiders finally look like they might be playable. I've been wanting this for years, they are easily my favourite Chaos vehicle.