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Lots of AP1 fire is painful but I would think that CWE can out shoot Imperial Fists, or at least outrange them. Because gunline castles exist I think it's always a wise idea to keep a few long range options for a TAC army. If he wanted to castle for two turns I'd happily blast him with some long range weapons his bolters can't reach. Fire Prisms, Dark Reapers, Support Weapon Platforms, Bright Lances, Scatter Lasers etc. At that point you should both be scoring your home objectives and meanwhile he's taking Wounds while you are either out of range or behind Obscuring terrain.

Imperial fists are the worst subfaction in a weak faction.

Eldar poop all over them

 Crafter91 wrote:

Spoiler:

Played a game against Imperial Fists last week and holy hell - it was like Craftworld Kryptonite.

I'll start by saying that I conceeded at the end of battle round three, despite actually winning at the time on points but I had a Farseer and a unit of Fire Dragons left on the table and it was very clear that my opponent would make up the shortfall in points over the remaining two turns.

I've never played against IF before so didn't quite know what to target or expect.

The IF's ability to ignore cover with AP1 weapons literally shredded through my infantry and there was so much of it, there was no way I could pass all the saves.

He won the turn one roll and castled his entire army for two rounds, making me come out to him (in hindsight, perhaps i didn't have to take the bait?)

I really don't enjoy playing against gunlines so it wasn't the most 'fun' game for me regardless of the result, but it was interesting to see how the CW dealth with it none-the-less (spoiler - not very well).

Terrain was sparce with a few places to hide, but again, his ability to ignore cover meant that unless I was entirely obscured, I may as well have been standing out in the open.

Certainly makes me consider a far-flung CW with the ignores cover rule...

In any case - it was a very well played game by my opponent and a learning experience for me.

Any thoughts on how you'd counter such an army are welcomed!

Army comp is also important. If half of your army was T3 bodies then bolters will have a field day.

For sure, the new player had good units, incubi,. Witches etc but not enough transports.
Even Harlequins, which are much better defensively than craftworlds, getting caught in the open outside their boats soon go down under weight of fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And weight of anti infantry fire power is one thing imperial fists are very good at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, just "finished" a test game of my seven serpent mobile fighters hail of doom list going into my Biel Tan list from earlier in the thread. I was using TTS.
I rolled randomly and got a corner to corner deployment and the serpent build rolled to go first.
I got two squads of guardians out and moved out to screen most of the board to be honest, seven serpents fill up a lot of the table!
Between the guardians and six of the serpents they took out a wave serpent, one squad of Hawks (a mistake on my part, didn't notice that their wings were sticking out above a solid fence), the squad of dire avengers that came out of the serpent and six rangers from two squads.
Then the Biel Tan took their turn, unfortunately the warlord re-rolls were planned to go on the hawks and was wasted, the psychic phase didn't go great either with only a serpent doomed. By the end of their turn they had crippled two serpents but crucially failed to pop any and killed the best part of the two guardian squads that had got out.
The serpents on turn two disgorged all but one of the remaining squads and went to town. All told they killed the other serpent, a night spinner, almost two squads of banshees with one exarch on a single wound, the other squad of hawks who didn't have many places to hide, more rangers, the warlock and a farseer.
Biel Tan were left with two spinners, one of which had only a single wound remaining, a farseer, a Banshee exarch, a few scouts and two squads of avengers in strategic reserve. At that point it wasn't worth continuing, Biel Tan had been decimated.
The deployment was definitely helpful to the serpents, table quarters allowed them to close in and spread over the board at the same time. I thought Hail of doom would be good and it didn't disappoint, I'm not sure how the maths works but it really stacks up. I wasn't sure about Mobile fighters, generally I'm not sure it's worth it unless you skew like I did. But with so many shots getting +1 to wound is just terrifying, especially when combined with all those 6+ wounds coming from Hail of doom. A guided squad of avengers took down a spinner on their own, without doom, it's an incredible combo.
I'll try another game with the same forces, probably giving Biel Tan first turn this time, might even just choose a mission with more no man's land between them since this game did favour the serpent build.
So first impressions of Hail of doom and mobile hunters is that it's really strong using just "cheap" units and the serpents do a terrific job because there's just so many of them and they're quick and keep the squishy Elves safe.

Sounds like an effective test game. I didn't realize Hail of Doom was 6+, I was thinking it was unmodified 6s so it goes well with Mobile Fighters.

I enjoyed Mobile Fighters when I used it, since I've got more than a few Wave Serpents in my collection and it's nice way to let all those S4 shuriken catapults pile on the wounds.

Hail of doom is indeed unmodified sixes, what I meant was that the unmodified sixes combine with the plus one to wound just pushes so many saves through that it's really effective because of the weight of dice.

Ah I see what you mean. I have a hail of doom list with some Psyker shenanigans I've been meaning to try, but I find it hard to give up Warding Runes over Mobile Fighters with so many mortals in the game these days.

Warding runes is great for sure. There's so many good far flung traits, I think masterful shots is really tough to give up but in this build mobile fighters gets my vote.

I've been taking Warding Runes in my games recently due to the sheer MW output in my local meta, namely Crusher Stampede (and the new codex because lets face it, everyone is running that from Wahapedia) and Grey Knights.

I'm struggling a lot with finding an effective build that I also enjoy playing. Have been going Hail of Doom/Warding Runes using a couple of wraithlords, guardian bomb and 26 Dire Avengers with Aspect Warrior support but it just feels like such a fragile list even taking into account the wave serpents. I think I'm still not used to the nuances of the new book, I still keep forcing the army to play like the previous codex.

I see Mech-Ulthwe is making the rounds competitively and I am unsure if I should switch to something similar.

Don't miss the Kurnous Bow and Mark of the Incomparable Hunter combo with Hail of Doom and Mobile Fighters.

6's to hit deal 2 mortals (Fate Dice!)
6's to wound deal 2 mortals (Fate Dice!)
S6, +1 to wound if disembarking to do mortals anyway.

That's an interesting combo, I don't think I've ever been tempted to take Kurnous bow before but this seems enticing. I usually opt for Phoenix Gem or Weeping Stone on my Farseer WL.

so I played a game vs orgs today. He played the speed freaks list with a dakka jet and the airplane that shoots a 2d6 s8 d3+d shots : /

i was testing the AoW style of playing craft worlds with only 2x scouts as throw aways. I won the game by 2 points and I feel the matchup exposed some of the archetypes potential weaknesses. At least in my hands.

my list is:



the list is super lethal with strong threats in several phases. Good rerolls and a lot of help from strands. It is optimized for TTL (eldrad; baha, hawks) and easily scores max on most of the mobility oriented secondaries. It can play actions too with avengers and will. for anti tank I have tinkered with this minimal package, and I think it works. the list only has 6 lance shoots (it used to be 8 but I swopped the 2xbrighlances for scatter, scatter, glaive on the second WL to satisfy TTL) per turn, but it can really make the best of them. First off, the two falcons can often get a shot on most stuff as they can pop down from deep strike anywhere. Sunstorm autarch and the BL wraith lord are a pretty mobile team too. Between the autarch giving the WL reroll 1s, strands, the ultwhe reroll to wound and the option to use command reroll twice you'll almost hit and wound on all six shots vs most stuff up to t7 and even t8 is almost the same with pulse lasers being s9.

I needed to clear his 3 squid buggys early and a popped 2 on t1. sadly, I rolled double 1 on dam the next turn and had the last buggy live with one before my falcons evaporated. so it actually lived til t5. the BL WL was bonkers from my backline, though, and sniped 3 warbikes, the bike boss and chipped a chunk off a dakkajet before the game was over. Speaking of flyers, the thing that almost cost me the game was, that the two flyers just flew 60 inches to my backline (we were playing end to end) around my screens. i tried to avoid it, but it was simply not possible to wrap all of my HQs sufficiently. So, yeah, that was brutal. Cost me both warlocks (he even played abhor) and a lot of flexibility from that point on. He didn't even roll super hot. He had the chance to wipe 3 spears too with the other plane, and would have done so, was it not for 4x 4++ saves in a row by me AND 3 strand saves on top. That sequence was completely bonkers. Had they been wiped t1 I think I would have lost the game.

The list is very hard to play (for me at least) as you can't really trade badly at any point. And all your units are important, so you have to be a surgeon and absolutely not lose 2 psykers t1 : )

but it so cool. it has all the good tech and all the tricks, if you need them; auto charge for scorpions out of deep strike, mortal wound insanity, most of the good spells, cp regen (I start very low, though due to all the tech), objective control through sunstorm and baharoth, amazing strands, a fair amount of obsec, good shooting and good melee. And amazing movability.

I know you probably wonder why I have no indirect. The falcons should probably be night spinners. I will test that, obviously, but actually I just didn't miss it. I had tons of targets, and the ones I HAD to dig out of cover, the buggies in this game, were decimated. I almost succeeded in wiping them by t2, and im not sure the spinners would have solved that problem better than the falcons did. But, yeah. They are amazing.

the thing I really missed was 2x 10 guardians to set up the perimeter and slow things down a bit..

thanks for reading.

It was fun to read, thanks for posting. Sounds like a great game. I do think that you're right in your observation that Craftworlds can be unforgiving and it sounds like you had a good opponent. Sniping planes can be hard to screen out but at least you managed to pull through.

Hello tactical Eldar. I recently played a game against the new Eldar with the new Tyranids. I wrote a detailed battle report and thought you might enjoy it.

You can read it here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/ttj1u7/new_tyranids_vs_craftworlds_2000pt_written_battle/

RandomHeretic wrote:
Hello tactical Eldar. I recently played a game against the new Eldar with the new Tyranids. I wrote a detailed battle report and thought you might enjoy it.

You can read it here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/ttj1u7/new_tyranids_vs_craftworlds_2000pt_written_battle/

Great write up, looked like a great game between two strong armies. What are your impressions of the new craftworlds and what do you think you could do differently in a rematch?

amazing write up. And what a game! his list has he same issues as mine from the other day. But what a turn around he manages to pull off.

 kingheff wrote:

RandomHeretic wrote:
Hello tactical Eldar. I recently played a game against the new Eldar with the new Tyranids. I wrote a detailed battle report and thought you might enjoy it.

You can read it here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/ttj1u7/new_tyranids_vs_craftworlds_2000pt_written_battle/

Great write up, looked like a great game between two strong armies. What are your impressions of the new craftworlds and what do you think you could do differently in a rematch?

My problem was not having enough screens. If I had found 160 points for 2 more units of gargoyles (say drop the second harpy) then I could have screened out his dire avengers and fire dragons. Basically I didn't take enough screens in my list, and without cheap screening infantry he could get range on my good models on turn 1.

Alternatively I should have just sacrificed part of the board from the start and tried to just castle in one half of the board.

Either way it is a really tough list to fight against. He has gone 3-0 at a local RTT and also gone 5-2 in our competitive play group. But it is also not an easy list to play. The tanks can be fragile if they get caught out and the real trick to playing his army is being a master of the movement phase. I think it is probably normally better at scoring early than it was in this game, because if the farseer is alive it can be making units obsec every turn and the farseer himself was obsec.

On the flip side, his list did really well even without any psychic. I wonder if someone actually just didn't spend the points at all on psychic if they could do well (obviously he spent a good chunk of points on casters, but what if instead he traded all of his psychers for an avatar or killy autarch or something).

I wonder where this hatred of screens has come from in peoples lists? Seems like the default to me

I'm getting a chance to try out the Crusade rules for CWE this weekend starting off fielding a 25PL (~500pt) army.

It's been interesting considering my options at this small of any army. I think I may actually prefer an Autarch at this range over a Farseer. Plus they get some fun crusade relics.

RandomHeretic wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

RandomHeretic wrote:
Hello tactical Eldar. I recently played a game against the new Eldar with the new Tyranids. I wrote a detailed battle report and thought you might enjoy it.

You can read it here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/ttj1u7/new_tyranids_vs_craftworlds_2000pt_written_battle/

Great write up, looked like a great game between two strong armies. What are your impressions of the new craftworlds and what do you think you could do differently in a rematch?

My problem was not having enough screens. If I had found 160 points for 2 more units of gargoyles (say drop the second harpy) then I could have screened out his dire avengers and fire dragons. Basically I didn't take enough screens in my list, and without cheap screening infantry he could get range on my good models on turn 1.

Alternatively I should have just sacrificed part of the board from the start and tried to just castle in one half of the board.

Either way it is a really tough list to fight against. He has gone 3-0 at a local RTT and also gone 5-2 in our competitive play group. But it is also not an easy list to play. The tanks can be fragile if they get caught out and the real trick to playing his army is being a master of the movement phase. I think it is probably normally better at scoring early than it was in this game, because if the farseer is alive it can be making units obsec every turn and the farseer himself was obsec.

On the flip side, his list did really well even without any psychic. I wonder if someone actually just didn't spend the points at all on psychic if they could do well (obviously he spent a good chunk of points on casters, but what if instead he traded all of his psychers for an avatar or killy autarch or something).

Trying to balance between screening chaff and good stuff is often difficult! If you get a rematch it would probably be worth using the same list but trying the more conservative approach. It's often too easy to blame the list rather than your play, I know I've done it often enough and you just end up tinkering with stuff.
Innes Wilson, who is a very good Nids player was praising two Harpies in the most recent Fight club podcast so it might be worth persevering with them, he did win a super major with them last weekend!
I think it's tough to give up psykers to be honest, our characters aren't super killy, aside from certain Phoenix lords and the Avatar, but our psykers are amongst the best in the game.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I'm getting a chance to try out the Crusade rules for CWE this weekend starting off fielding a 25PL (~500pt) army.

It's been interesting considering my options at this small of any army. I think I may actually prefer an Autarch at this range over a Farseer. Plus they get some fun crusade relics.

What are your thoughts on the path system? It seems like it’s going to take a lot of games to rank them up. While there could be some advantages to switching paths, it would take a lot of time/resources.

I like the look of it, of my 5 starting Requisition points I'm using 2 on Paths, one for DA and another for Striking Scorpions and I'm using a 3rd RP to get the Striking Scorpions an Exarch Power (Crushing Blows). The first level of reroll 1s kicks in at 5 pts, and I think each aspect can get 2-3 pts per match (unless they get blown off the board).

One thing I was disappointed by was the Wraith conversion since it can't be used if it would put you over your supply limit. At that point it doesn't seem worthwhile to use it unless you are extremely unlucky and keep rollings 1s on out-of-action tests.

I don't think I'd use the Warlock specific one since it requires you to run a warlock council and one of them gets converted into a Farseer. I prefer character protection so I rarely run Warlock councils.

One thing the path system lets you do is move XP around, in an odd way.

It’s not just re-arm and re-equip. It’s swap unit types. You could level up a squad of dire avengers, and than turn them into rangers. So if you have some squads that are easier to level up than others, you can get higher ranked squads with less work. Just some RPs.

The wraith thing seems to be mostly for fun. You have to have some pretty crappy luck to get 2 scars. But it could be fun from a narrative POV.

Yeah I noticed that, for instance you could put a Guardian with the Sentinel Agenda to get XP fast then convert them into an Aspect later for instance.

I really like the concept of the Wraith ones, very fluffy but if they're going to lock it behind 2 battle scars I feel there should be some upside. I guess they're too worried about converting 3PL worth of DA into 10PL worth of Wraithguard.

Can anyone who got the new avatar confirm the base size? Is it 80mm?

 Leth wrote:
I wonder where this hatred of screens has come from in peoples lists? Seems like the default to me

Yeah, I agree. but maybe the paradigm for our army has really changed in that regard. I won't be the one to say it has, but it seems like people play very lethal glascanonny lists that exploit the best from the book. I just barely managed to go through a game vs orks with such a build. it takes a lot of precision and I dont know how I would do against top tier factions that punish every misstep even more than the orks do.

I think rangers are a reasonable initial screening unit, not as cheap as would be ideal but with forward deployment they are pretty effective.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Can anyone who got the new avatar confirm the base size? Is it 80mm?

Yep, 80mm

goodman111 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Can anyone who got the new avatar confirm the base size? Is it 80mm?

Yep, 80mm

Thanks

On a different note, I picked up two boxes of shining spears. Is the thought that one max unit is better than two small units or is MSU the way to go here?