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What I may actually end of doing is picking up the new MK VIs for a Raven Guard army and then just using MK IV and V for Emperor's Children. I've got the disposable income for two armies so, to quote Bilbo, "after all, why shouldn't I?"

40k lore has always been driven by what GW whats to do from a modelling and/or gameplay perspective.
"hey this is a cool idea for a model, hey everyone this model exists in lore" has always been how it's worked.
My army works much the same way! If it's within the realms of plausibility (which is deliberately very broad in 30k/40k) then have at it.

It's that recently they're getting clammed in by the internet - that throw away commend they wrote in 2004 doesn't disappear anymore.
Plus the community has grown larger, more dedicated, and more invested.

I think it's absolutely fair that people would be annoyed at GW retconning stuff like this.
I don't like that GW has made this retcon now, but it is what it is.

But I won't be frothing at the mouth about it, because in the grand scheme of things it's pretty minor.

The vibe I've been picking up from other forums is that at the very least your army should be fluffed around Siege era heresy
if you are dead set on using a majority of beakies and aren't playing RG or Alpha.
Seems like a fair compromise, given the historic nature of HH, but different strokes.

edit: Sorry for the page stretching posts. I'm still dusting off the cobwebs. It's been about 10 years since I've used a proper forum.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
40k lore has always been driven by what GW whats to do from a modelling and/or gameplay perspective.
"hey this is a cool idea for a model, hey everyone this model exists in lore" has always been how it's worked.
My army works much the same way! If it's within the realms of plausibility (which is deliberately very broad in 30k/40k) then have at it.

It's that recently they're getting clammed in by the internet - that throw away commend they wrote in 2004 doesn't disappear anymore.
Plus the community has grown larger, more dedicated, and more invested.

I think it's absolutely fair that people would be annoyed at GW retconning stuff like this.
I don't like that GW has made this retcon now, but it is what it is.

But I won't be frothing at the mouth about it, because in the grand scheme of things it's pretty minor.

My thing is, i dont mind new lore, i just dont want invalidation of old lore. I hate that so much.
And right now, nothing canonically would make running full, anything not beakie, non canonical so, thats fine by me.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
40k lore has always been driven by what GW whats to do from a modelling and/or gameplay perspective.
"hey this is a cool idea for a model, hey everyone this model exists in lore" has always been how it's worked.
My army works much the same way! If it's within the realms of plausibility (which is deliberately very broad in 30k/40k) then have at it.

It's that recently they're getting clammed in by the internet - that throw away commend they wrote in 2004 doesn't disappear anymore.
Plus the community has grown larger, more dedicated, and more invested.

I think it's absolutely fair that people would be annoyed at GW retconning stuff like this.
I don't like that GW has made this retcon now, but it is what it is.

But I won't be frothing at the mouth about it, because in the grand scheme of things it's pretty minor.

It's pretty minor, but perhaps less so for 30k people because there is un-arguably a historical aspect to it and players are tend to be more focused and obsessed about the details. With that said I agree mk6 is a pretty minor issue, I'm far more concerned with the new edition's rules being a poor replacement for the current HH rules, which honestly didn't need much love.

 godardc wrote:
The models may be yours, the setting isn't, and this is disrespectful. That's exactly the kind of behavior we don't need in 30k. But apparently with this new edition, we are going to get plenty of that

If you're going to refuse to play someone who has MkVI models in their army then you're the one in the wrong.

 godardc wrote:

 Gert wrote:
A simple way to look at it is this:
"Shut up these are My Dudes they have the armour that exists at the time, go lick a hedgehog."
That will solve all your HH armour problems

The models may be yours, the setting isn't, and this is disrespectful. That's exactly the kind of behavior we don't need in 30k. But apparently with this new edition, we are going to get plenty of that

The setting isn't yours, either, and the creators say mk6 is fine and widespread.

 AdmiralRon wrote:
The vibe I've been picking up from other forums is that at the very least your army should be fluffed around Siege era heresy
if you are dead set on using a majority of beakies and aren't playing RG or Alpha.
Seems like a fair compromise, given the historic nature of HH, but different strokes.

If you genuinely meet someone who refuses to play a game because you have MkVI Marines in your army then they aren't worth playing. The elitism in the HH communities is pathetic and often worse than 40k but it gets a pass because of "Muh Accuracy". The utter irony is people will laud those who make truescale models using Deathguard or through 3rd party companies but those same people kick up a huge fuss because GW decided that the 5th plastic Heresy armour should be MkVI.

Fluff wise, running an army of full Mk 2, 3 ,4 5, and even 6 is still 100% valid in the fluff. Even in late heresy era.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fluff wise, running an army of full Mk 2, 3 ,4 5, and even 6 is still 100% valid in the fluff. Even in late heresy era.

It's not like the armies that people can field are anything so big that would invalidate any kind of lore about amounts of armour models in a legion, let alone in all legions anyway.

"Why yes, these guys are part of the contingent that was issued the newer armor even though it was not widespread among the legion due to attrition and logistic stuff/field testing/they found a cache/etc.).

 Albertorius wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fluff wise, running an army of full Mk 2, 3 ,4 5, and even 6 is still 100% valid in the fluff. Even in late heresy era.

It's not like the armies that people can field are anything so big that would invalidate any kind of lore about amounts of armour models in a legion, let alone in all legions anyway.

"Why yes, these guys are part of the contingent that was issued the newer armor even though it was not widespread among the legion due to attrition and logistic stuff/field testing/they found a cache/etc.).

Well that and you just had armies that favored specific armor patterns, Like IW had a big thing for Mk3, same with salis iirc.
You had T sons who were big on mk 4.
Plus canonically legions are like 100k+ space marines so its not unreasnable that a few squads that you run, or even a chapter within the legion would be full non mk 6.

 Rihgu wrote:

 godardc wrote:

 Gert wrote:
A simple way to look at it is this:
"Shut up these are My Dudes they have the armour that exists at the time, go lick a hedgehog."
That will solve all your HH armour problems

The models may be yours, the setting isn't, and this is disrespectful. That's exactly the kind of behavior we don't need in 30k. But apparently with this new edition, we are going to get plenty of that

The setting isn't yours, either, and the creators say mk6 is fine and widespread.

I think this is the first time in a long time I've hit that "Exalt" button. This is a mic drop statement right here.

Anybody else remember the old Larry Leadhead comics making fun of the people who would argue over the correct number of buttons on a Napoleonic uniform and such?
That's much the same as arguing over whether your army of just 50 marines, out of a legion of 100,000+, can all have the same armor.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Anybody else remember the old Larry Leadhead comics making fun of the people who would argue over the correct number of buttons on a Napoleonic uniform and such?
That's much the same as arguing over whether your army of just 50 marines, out of a legion of 100,000+, can all have the same armor.

No but I remember one called Fabulous Freddy and the Furry Freak Bros, or something like that. One time Freddy got beat up by a bunch of hicks, but when he lands on the ground his stash in his pocket busts open and the contents blow in his face. Then he rages out and beats the tar out of the hicks, presumably empowered by the contents of his stash. Hilarity ensues when he has to explain to his furry freak brothers what happened to the stash.

Anyway, what else are we supposed to talk about? I'd rather have a chat about the number of the various patterns of armour in a given army than say... Well there is tons, but bickering over game lore is fun and safe for everyone. I'd rather hear about some gak you made up as to why your World Eaters army is using beakies only instead of just "that's the kit I bought".

The origins of Horus Heresy come from 1st edition Space Marine, a game in 6mm epic scale in which all the marines were MkVI. Get off my lawn.

It is you HH only players who are eating up retconned lore from my days

(Its OK, I'll still play your dudes, regardless of armour Mk)

Nope, you said to get off your lawn. Well guess what, you're not the only one who thinks a great deal of the care and maintenance of a lawn! Why back in my day...

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fluff wise, running an army of full Mk 2, 3 ,4 5, and even 6 is still 100% valid in the fluff. Even in late heresy era.

It's not like the armies that people can field are anything so big that would invalidate any kind of lore about amounts of armour models in a legion, let alone in all legions anyway.

"Why yes, these guys are part of the contingent that was issued the newer armor even though it was not widespread among the legion due to attrition and logistic stuff/field testing/they found a cache/etc.).

Well that and you just had armies that favored specific armor patterns, Like IW had a big thing for Mk3, same with salis iirc.
You had T sons who were big on mk 4.
Plus canonically legions are like 100k+ space marines so its not unreasnable that a few squads that you run, or even a chapter within the legion would be full non mk 6.

That's what I mean, yes. Even if canonically a legion fields almost none of a specific design, well... a full 30k army of them wouldn't be an issue, honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hairesy wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Anybody else remember the old Larry Leadhead comics making fun of the people who would argue over the correct number of buttons on a Napoleonic uniform and such?
That's much the same as arguing over whether your army of just 50 marines, out of a legion of 100,000+, can all have the same armor.

No but I remember one called Fabulous Freddy and the Furry Freak Bros, or something like that. One time Freddy got beat up by a bunch of hicks, but when he lands on the ground his stash in his pocket busts open and the contents blow in his face. Then he rages out and beats the tar out of the hicks, presumably empowered by the contents of his stash. Hilarity ensues when he has to explain to his furry freak brothers what happened to the stash.

Anyway, what else are we supposed to talk about? I'd rather have a chat about the number of the various patterns of armour in a given army than say... Well there is tons, but bickering over game lore is fun and safe for everyone. I'd rather hear about some gak you made up as to why your World Eaters army is using beakies only instead of just "that's the kit I bought".

Well, I play loyalist IWs so nyah

Just as a reminder, here's a somewhat recent pict showing Horus Heresy era legions from WHC

I don't see the vast majority of these wearing MkVI armour

Maybe, just maybe that means the sky isnt falling just yet?

(This is presumably artwork from the HH 2.0 rulebook)

Or more likely they did not wanna pay artists to draw up new pictures.

Nope, the only new piece there is the Son of Horus and the Raven Guard. Every other Marine there is from previous Black Books.
The EC and DG are from Betrayal IIRC.
The Salamander, Iron Warrior, Dark Angel, Alpha Legionary, White Scar, Blood Angel, Iron Hand, and World Eater are all from Retribution.
The Space Wolf and Thousand Son will be from Inferno, and the Ultramarine will be from Tempest. The Word Bearer could be from Tempest, Massacre, or Extermination, possibly even Malevolence. The Fist will be from Extermination and the Night Lord will likely be from Massacre.

 Gert wrote:
Nope, the only new piece there is the Son of Horus and the Raven Guard. Every other Marine there is from previous Black Books.
The EC and DG are from Betrayal IIRC.
The Salamander, Iron Warrior, Dark Angel, Alpha Legionary, White Scar, Blood Angel, Iron Hand, and World Eater are all from Retribution.
The Space Wolf and Thousand Son will be from Inferno, and the Ultramarine will be from Tempest. The Word Bearer could be from Tempest, Massacre, or Extermination, possibly even Malevolence. The Fist will be from Extermination and the Night Lord will likely be from Massacre.

This is what I'm talking about. Or would y'all rather talk sportsball or fightpuck or something?

Gert is right, there wasn't a ton of Mk6 until the Siege of Terra. Only my doods have lots BC Raven Guard Reasons. Therefore if you're gonna have a World Eaters army made out of the new Mk6 kit, please make something up about why that is, so we can tell you how many buttons they had on their coats.

Now to get this thread back on track, GW is universally bad and will continue to be bad, even if I am wrong about scale creep. GW will also continue to be bad if I end up buying some of their new models. Squatting Boxnaughts is absolute heresy and should not be tolerated, I would be very wary of people who do not agree whenever they came near my lawn.

 Hairesy wrote:
Gert is right, there wasn't a ton of Mk6 until the Siege of Terra. Only my doods have lots BC Raven Guard Reasons. Therefore if you're gonna have a World Eaters army made out of the new Mk6 kit, please make something up about why that is, so we can tell you how many buttons they had on their coats.

No no no. I specifically said that in the late Heresy i.e. anything after 10.M31, MkVI was very easily starting to take dominance of the patterns. That post you quoted was only saying where those pieces of art came from. Please do not put words in my mouth when I have spent the better part of the last week detailing why the people whinging about MkVI are wrong.

Well now I feel like a Spaceballs quote...

 tauist wrote:
The origins of Horus Heresy come from 1st edition Space Marine, a game in 6mm epic scale in which all the marines were MkVI. Get off my lawn.

It is you HH only players who are eating up retconned lore from my days

(Its OK, I'll still play your dudes, regardless of armour Mk)

What I was going to say! Mk6 is the original Horus Heresy mark of armour, thanks to the first Space Marine boxset, as far as I am concerned

So do we think is going to be a 100 marine list edition? Looking at 1.0 lists and it looks like everyone capped out around 40-60 then took a ton of toys,
but I'm seeing people reacting to the leaks saying that's likely to change.

 AdmiralRon wrote:
So do we think is going to be a 100 marine list edition? Looking at 1.0 lists and it looks like everyone capped out around 40-60 then took a ton of toys,
but I'm seeing people reacting to the leaks saying that's likely to change.

God, I hope so. That's the archetype I ran because to me 30k is all about the ranks and ranks and ranks of marines. My opponents mostly refuse to meet me on an even field, though, and take me down with horrific death machines

*trump voice* Boys > toys. Many people are saying this.

 Pacific wrote:

 tauist wrote:
The origins of Horus Heresy come from 1st edition Space Marine, a game in 6mm epic scale in which all the marines were MkVI. Get off my lawn.

It is you HH only players who are eating up retconned lore from my days

(Its OK, I'll still play your dudes, regardless of armour Mk)

What I was going to say! Mk6 is the original Horus Heresy mark of armour, thanks to the first Space Marine boxset, as far as I am concerned

Technically it was the original mark of armor for the HH and 40k. As there was no other.

 AdmiralRon wrote:
So do we think is going to be a 100 marine list edition? Looking at 1.0 lists and it looks like everyone capped out around 40-60 then took a ton of toys,
but I'm seeing people reacting to the leaks saying that's likely to change.

Its 100% the age of MEQ and TEQ.
With the buffs given they got, in that AP3 and 2 pie plates were greatly reduced, foot soldiers are super strong now, especially TEQ units. All terminators are now 2w, plasma is not a garunted insta gib on TEQ or MEQ for that matter.
Expect legion unique TeQ squads to be all over the field, i for one am super excited to run T sons, Shekmet are going to be really good, and so are blade cult. Combo that with the buffs to Deepstrike its gonna get nastly.

I will say this though as well, the importance of being able to pin a target is going to be huge.

Honestly it seems it's the age of the Dreadnought.
With T7/2+/5++/6W they are almost impossible to bring down with anything that isn't another Contemptor.