Squats return! - Page 11

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**Wha-Mu-077**

insaniak wrote:
I don't mind the design, but I feel they've not quite captured the 'Dwarf' part of the 'Space Dwarf' look...

They look to be around 5'11", so according to some people, perfectly fitting the definition of a dwarf

**Dysartes**

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Feels like a missed opportunity to do something more interesting to me.

...such as?

Such as? is such a BS response. It’s like saying, off the top of your head, come up with something better than a team of professional designers, who probably spent months working on this.

All I know it, this looks to me like the laziest, most predictable and boring thing they could have done to reinvent squats. Uninspired sub-Tolkien stereotypes in space.

I hope to be proved wrong when we see the rest of the range, but there’s so many things I would have preferred to have seen instead of space dwarfs.

We may have had slightly crossed wires there - I'd read your post as meaning "something more interesting" than Squats, as opposed to what you appear to have meant, which was that you were hoping for a more interesting take on the Squat theme.

The "such as?" question, on my part, was then asking what you'd've wanted to see instead of them.

**lord_blackfang**

Did you miss the metal feet, he's on stilts. His real feet are at the knee caps. Why does he have knee caps for his feet? Who knows.

**Wha-Mu-077**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Did you miss the metal feet, he's on stilts. His real feet are at the knee caps. Why does he have knee caps for his feet? Who knows.

Obviously, they're feet caps.

**Tastyfish**

The gun confuses me, it feels like it has some shared design elements with imperial weaponry but I can't quite say what. It's a bit bolty, perhaps with hint of something else.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Tastyfish wrote:
The gun confuses me, it feels like it has some shared design elements with imperial weaponry but I can't quite say what. It's a bit bolty, perhaps with hint of something else.

Van Saar. You’re thinking Van Saar.

**NAVARRO**

Its probably 25mm bases so a bit smaller.

If not just cut ankles off and thats it.

**Wha-Mu-077**

NAVARRO wrote:
Its probably 25mm bases so a bit smaller.

If not just cut ankles off and thats it.

GW doesn't really put models on 25mms anymore.

**MonkeyBallistic**

Dysartes wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Feels like a missed opportunity to do something more interesting to me.

...such as?

Such as? is such a BS response. It’s like saying, off the top of your head, come up with something better than a team of professional designers, who probably spent months working on this.

All I know it, this looks to me like the laziest, most predictable and boring thing they could have done to reinvent squats. Uninspired sub-Tolkien stereotypes in space.

I hope to be proved wrong when we see the rest of the range, but there’s so many things I would have preferred to have seen instead of space dwarfs.

We may have had slightly crossed wires there - I'd read your post as meaning "something more interesting" than Squats, as opposed to what you appear to have meant, which was that you were hoping for a more interesting take on the Squat theme.

The "such as?" question, on my part, was then asking what you'd've wanted to see instead of them.

Oh … I misunderstood.

Sorry if I came across as rude.

**Ian Sturrock**

Standard base size for Cadians is still 25mm, isn't it?

Anyway. I like the aesthetic in a vacuum (as long as there's a helmet too, ha! ha!) but it's not really very space dwarfy. Too tall (but will probably scale fine with the Hardcore Miniatures ones, which are also too tall for my tastes). But I prefer the cheaper and dwarfier ones from Ramshackle, CP Models, and Hasslefree, overall.

I also suspect that GW's take on space dorfs will be less interesting and strategically distinct than F28's take, where it's mostly artillery strikes, tunnels, trenches, bunkers, etc.

**Matt.Kingsley**

It's possible the new Squats are on 28.5mm bases like Templar Neophytes or Sisters Repentia, but even then they might still look too tall

**Wha-Mu-077**

Ian Sturrock wrote:
Standard base size for Cadians is still 25mm, isn't it?

Yeah, but Cadians are from ages ago, and the Eldar Guardians got bigger bases recently with the remake, despite being formerly on 25mm

**Mentlegen324**

Da Butcha wrote:
It's funny that some people really prefer the Necromunda "Squats" Ragnir and Grendel to this look. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE those guys. LOVE THEM. I wanted to do a whole Squat gang because of them--and I did. I got the amazing Space Dwarves from Hardcore Minis and fielded Burlok's Brotherhood (go look at Hardcore Minis. They are amazing)

But also, to me, these guys and Ragnir and Grendel all make sense together. Ragnir and Grendel were marooned on Necromunda. Grendel's mercenaries, the Vega Rams, were betrayed and shot up in the Spire and he fled to the Underhive to escape. Ragnir was also forced to work as a Gunsmith in the underhives after he 'retired.' They are Kin of the League of Votann, but refugees in human realms. They can't get League armor, League clothes, League weapons. They can't even get the stuff needed to maintain League tech out here. They are stuck with grubby, shoddy, clearly inferior common-human-stock crap.

It makes total sense for me for the Squats to look one way on human-dominated worlds, where the economy and architecture is entirely Imperial/AdMech driven, and to look another way (a cooler, high-tech way) when they have access to the awesome stuff from their Kin.

In short---embrace it! You have fully equipped members of The Votann League, and you have members of the squat diaspora. They both fit the universe!

To me the issue isn't really that this set of armour is different to Grendleson's armour, but rather the aspects of classic Dwarf theming appears to be lost and replaced with...nothing? If you compare the two miniatures, it appears Grendel is wearing a very similar undersuit (underneath his Gambeson) to this miniature - it looks to have the same knee and elbow padding - and presumably these new ones are a Space-focused society so perhaps they wear void-capable suits all the time, so i'm sure from a lore perspective it fits, but it's that the little details that added life to the Grendleson mini are missing that makes it feel lacking. He had a few small embellishments, like a Dwarf icon on his backpack and weapon, the braided beard, the belt buckle etc that gave a bit of a sense of that Fantasy Dwarf Culture without going too far with it, but this has nothing like that at all. If doesn't even look like they'll be able to have proper beards because of the front of the armour coming up to their chin.

If they had kept the Padded Gambeson (or as a full undersuit) and had a few bits of iconography and extra details i think that would have been great. Grendleson evoked the right feeling to me, but it just feels somewhat bland.

**NAVARRO**

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:
Its probably 25mm bases so a bit smaller.

If not just cut ankles off and thats it.

GW doesn't really put models on 25mms anymore.

Kriegs from KT and the vast majority of Necromunda... so recent stuff in 25mm.

40k loads of legacy still in 25mm.
Just because guardians doing the splits got new bases doesn't mean they dont do it anymore.

Either way I can base how I want so no worries there.

**Strg Alt**

Iracundus wrote:
I hope they move beyond generic looking sci-fi equipment and armor. Possibly the ones we see are bland because they are the low ranking? Maybe the higher ranking Characters will be more like the Kharadron Overlord with ornate stuff?

As for the old Epic stuff, they were a real mixed bag of things that didn't really fit together that well and were weighted more towards the superheavy end of things.

The Land Train for example, in Epic, was a tank-like front engine, pulling a series of battle cars. One was a transport car with like a battlecannon. One was a flame thrower so a bit like an inferno cannon. One was a one use rad bomb/missile. The problem with the Epic design was, you could completely immobilize the entire Train by destroying the front engine. Although it had IIRC a void shield or two, it still fell pretty easily to concentrated fire.

The Goliath Mega Battery was a massive fixed artillery piece. However its ranges would be overkill for a 40K battlefield, and it was vulnerable at close ranges or in close combat.

The Overlord Armored Gunship was basically an armored flying blimp. Stats were...ok but nothing to write home about.

There was the Squat Cyclops superheavy with its massive Hellfury cannon, however that is more suited to be anti-superheavy and anti-Titan.

Each wagon of the land train would add a specific amount to the void shield total. So land trains having just two void shields is not correct.

**Arbitrator**

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:
Its probably 25mm bases so a bit smaller.

If not just cut ankles off and thats it.

GW doesn't really put models on 25mms anymore.

The plastic Death Korp and Neophyte Hybrids are still on 25mm, as were the BSF Traitor Guard and Cultists.

That said I'd still not be surprised if Squats were on at least 32mm. Kharadron basic troops are on 25mm but the basic Fyreslayer is on 32mm, so with the pretty weighty looking armour he's wearing I reckon they'll slide to the bigger base.

**insaniak**

Crimson wrote:
Yeah... It looks to me like a 28.5mm base too, but I guess it could be a 25mm one as well, which would make them smaller.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I found a version where the base is scaled to roughly 25mm. I feel the model would make much more sense in this scale, but the base proportions indicate that this probably is not a 25mm base. Unfortunate. Giant space dwarves are just weird.

Yeah, unless GW are making shorter 25mm bases specifically for this release, it's a 28mm.

**Strg Alt**

Crimson wrote:
Yeah... It looks to me like a 28.5mm base too, but I guess it could be a 25mm one as well, which would make them smaller.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I found a version where the base is scaled to roughly 25mm. I feel the model would make much more sense in this scale, but the base proportions indicate that this probably is not a 25mm base. Unfortunate. Giant space dwarves are just weird.

So its a Space Wolf after all in a funny suit doing squats?

**Geifer**

My first thought here was that being space dwarfs they'd be comparable in size to sky dwarfs and ground dwarfs. People love those lineups and they're usually the best idea we have until the actual models release, but I suspect GW isn't going to make Squats bigger than their fantasy cousins. So for the time being I'd put one of those in a lineup before fiddling around with the promo picture.

Not that I actually have any of those fantasy models to do that with...

stonehorse wrote:
Glad to see Squats return, not a fan of the new name.

We could call them Wee Men of the Allfather instead?

stonehorse wrote:
Model looks nice, I do however think they should have chosen a different colour scheme. The white high tech armour is too similar to the Tau modern 'offical' colours scheme.

Agreed. Perhaps they should have leafed through an old dwarf army book for a livery to adapt. The one they chose does absolutely nothing for me, to put it politely.

**Strg Alt**

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Dystartes wrote:

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Feels like a missed opportunity to do something more interesting to me.

...such as?

Such as? is such a BS response. It’s like saying, off the top of your head, come up with something better than a team of professional designers, who probably spent months working on this.

All I know it, this looks to me like the laziest, most predictable and boring thing they could have done to reinvent squats. Uninspired sub-Tolkien stereotypes in space.

I hope to be proved wrong when we see the rest of the range, but there’s so many things I would have preferred to have seen instead of space dwarfs.

Indeed! Dwarfs...IN SPACE! So lame! What are they gonna do next? Orks, Elves and Demons too? What kind of tomfoolery this would be!

**MonkeyBallistic**

Strg Alt wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Dystartes wrote:

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Feels like a missed opportunity to do something more interesting to me.

...such as?

Such as? is such a BS response. It’s like saying, off the top of your head, come up with something better than a team of professional designers, who probably spent months working on this.

All I know it, this looks to me like the laziest, most predictable and boring thing they could have done to reinvent squats. Uninspired sub-Tolkien stereotypes in space.

I hope to be proved wrong when we see the rest of the range, but there’s so many things I would have preferred to have seen instead of space dwarfs.

Indeed! Dwarfs...IN SPACE! So lame! What are they gonna do next? Orks, Elves and Demons too? What kind of tomfoolery this would be!

Orks happen to be my least favourite thing about 40K. Space Elves a close second. At least with Demons and Aeldari, they actually managed to do something interesting. It’s possible to like 40k without having to like everything about it.

**Wha-Mu-077**

I just wish they were actually visibly shorter than the average human, not just wider.

**NightReconnaissance**

Someone else in the thread also noticed it. But that little ball with the sections cut out toward the back of his gun, it looks a bit Tau. Could they have perhaps merged elements of the Demiurg idea into them? Since they're now space-dwelling and more loosely affiliated with the Imperium, particularly where it comes to techno-heresy. Maybe they have some trade or even serve as occasional mercenaries for the Tau like the Demiurg did.

They certainly cribbed some of the space suit aesthetic from them and are now nomadic space-dwelling people like the Demiurg. Maybe they'll even be retconned to have actually been the Demiurg. In fact, looking at the background for the Demiurg, there is the idea that the Tau got their ion cannon technology from the Demiurg.

**Flinty**

How do they scale to Necromunda humans or the BSF traitor guard? Cadians are not really the best indicator of the more recent scaling.

**Arbitrator**

To be fair the 19 year old Cadian kits look like Squats next to modern Krieg/GSC/Traitor Guard. A better line-up would probably be next to one of those.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Arbitrator wrote:
To be fair the 19 year old Cadian kits look like Squats next to modern Krieg/GSC/Traitor Guard. A better line-up would probably be next to one of those.

The Cadians are broad, but I think they're roughly the same height as the new DKOK.

**Wha-Mu-077**

Arbitrator wrote:
To be fair the 19 year old Cadian kits look like Squats next to modern Krieg/GSC/Traitor Guard. A better line-up would probably be next to one of those.

My humble attempt.

**Iracundus**

Strg Alt wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
I hope they move beyond generic looking sci-fi equipment and armor. Possibly the ones we see are bland because they are the low ranking? Maybe the higher ranking Characters will be more like the Kharadron Overlord with ornate stuff?

As for the old Epic stuff, they were a real mixed bag of things that didn't really fit together that well and were weighted more towards the superheavy end of things.

The Land Train for example, in Epic, was a tank-like front engine, pulling a series of battle cars. One was a transport car with like a battlecannon. One was a flame thrower so a bit like an inferno cannon. One was a one use rad bomb/missile. The problem with the Epic design was, you could completely immobilize the entire Train by destroying the front engine. Although it had IIRC a void shield or two, it still fell pretty easily to concentrated fire.

The Goliath Mega Battery was a massive fixed artillery piece. However its ranges would be overkill for a 40K battlefield, and it was vulnerable at close ranges or in close combat.

The Overlord Armored Gunship was basically an armored flying blimp. Stats were...ok but nothing to write home about.

There was the Squat Cyclops superheavy with its massive Hellfury cannon, however that is more suited to be anti-superheavy and anti-Titan.

Each wagon of the land train would add a specific amount to the void shield total. So land trains having just two void shields is not correct.

A few extra void shields did not make much difference as massed firepower easily peeled away shields. The Land Train was a slow and big target, with its cars being a hodgepodge of various abilities that did not really mesh together that well. As it was not a Titan, it did not have a template, meaning one failed save to the Engine was enough to immobilize the whole train and also collapse the remaining void shields. Then the remaining cars were just immobilized vehicles that could be picked off at leisure. A slow big target had to be durable enough, and under the old 2nd edition Epic rules, the Squat Land Train just wasn't nor did it present a huge threat in terms of firepower (at least compared to the hassle and relative fragility). It was this weird gimmick of a string of vehicles forced to travel in a line. It was not treated as a superheavy or Titan and that was the flaw in the rules.

That is what GW needs to correct this time. If they go with slow, then they need to have enough durability to actually survive to get into range or to the objective.

**NAVARRO**

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Strg Alt wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Dystartes wrote:

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Feels like a missed opportunity to do something more interesting to me.

...such as?

Such as? is such a BS response. It’s like saying, off the top of your head, come up with something better than a team of professional designers, who probably spent months working on this.

All I know it, this looks to me like the laziest, most predictable and boring thing they could have done to reinvent squats. Uninspired sub-Tolkien stereotypes in space.

I hope to be proved wrong when we see the rest of the range, but there’s so many things I would have preferred to have seen instead of space dwarfs.

Indeed! Dwarfs...IN SPACE! So lame! What are they gonna do next? Orks, Elves and Demons too? What kind of tomfoolery this would be!

Orks happen to be my least favourite thing about 40K. Space Elves a close second. At least with Demons and Aeldari, they actually managed to do something interesting. It’s possible to like 40k without having to like everything about it.

Yeah I agree with that but I disagree with your notion that its lame, lazy or non interesting... Doesn't fit your aesthetic preferences which its fine but GW reinvented armour/ look to something new in 40k which in itself shows commitment to design and is an interesting new design direction.
They did the same in Necromunda Van saar which I find refreshing and they did it years ago with Tau... Keep it coming I would say.

**Mentlegen324**

NAVARRO wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Strg Alt wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Dystartes wrote:

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Feels like a missed opportunity to do something more interesting to me.

...such as?

Such as? is such a BS response. It’s like saying, off the top of your head, come up with something better than a team of professional designers, who probably spent months working on this.

All I know it, this looks to me like the laziest, most predictable and boring thing they could have done to reinvent squats. Uninspired sub-Tolkien stereotypes in space.

I hope to be proved wrong when we see the rest of the range, but there’s so many things I would have preferred to have seen instead of space dwarfs.

Indeed! Dwarfs...IN SPACE! So lame! What are they gonna do next? Orks, Elves and Demons too? What kind of tomfoolery this would be!

Orks happen to be my least favourite thing about 40K. Space Elves a close second. At least with Demons and Aeldari, they actually managed to do something interesting. It’s possible to like 40k without having to like everything about it.

Yeah I agree with that but I disagree with your notion that its lame, lazy or non interesting... Doesn't fit your aesthetic preferences which its fine but GW reinvented armour/ look to something new in 40k which in itself shows commitment to design and is an interesting new design direction.
They did the same in Necromunda Van saar which I find refreshing and they did it years ago with Tau... Keep it coming I would say.

They'd already updated their look with Grendleson, and he looked great - a modern take on their original design that still evoked that classic feel with the padded gambeson and small Dwarf-themed details. The new version looks like they took away those extra bits and the Dwarf-theming and replaced them with nothing, turning it into a more bland, quite generic sci-fi miniature. If they had kept the padded undersuit and had a few small embellishments then it would have felt less lacking with its theming.