Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I don't see people complaining Cadians are plain and boring and generic Sci-Fi, even though their aesthetic is wholly ripped from Starship Troopers, and their uniform are rather plain.
No people complain about Cadians for all different reasons.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Some people like Fantasy Dwarfs for the typical Fantasy Dwarf theming.
Correction, some people like GW fantasy dwarfs for the not-so-typical-over-the-top-and-obscenely-unnecessary-GW-method-of-forcing-their-brand-of-theming-down-our-collective-throats.
You want a typical themed fantasy dwarf? Look at Middle earth minis. Dwarves done in a way even dwarf haters can get behind. But there is nothing typical about how GW do their Warhammer dwarves. Other than they've been doing it for so long that people mistake it for what dwarves universally are in ANY other setting/IP.
What exactly are you referring to that GW does with theirs that other fantasy settings typically don't?
First, the Cadians are at most three-quarters Starship Troopers.
Second, the Cadians have aquilas a-plenty.
Third, IG had a lot of options from the totally-Blanche Vostroyans to the generic 80’s action hero Catachans. Perhaps the Squats will get the same treatment.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Sigh.
This is a non-argument that's just tiring. People want different things. Learn to live with that.
Third, IG had a lot of options from the totally-Blanche Vostroyans to the generic 80’s action hero Catachans. Perhaps the Squats will get the same treatment.
Given how almost all IG regiments got removed, and now we can choose between old Cadians, ancient Catachans and a single kit of Kriegers, i don't exactly have much faith in Squats getting plenty of distinct regiment-esque-things.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Personally I believe this is just a regular troop option and that you will still have the overthetop detailed heavy heroes and specials.
Again, just where has anyone where here asked for the basic troopers to be "overthetop detailed heavy" miniatures? You're really missing the point if that's what you think is being asked for.
Wasn't your main example of what you think they should look like the Necromunda Squat?
No, I've not at all said that I want them to all be heavily detailed to the same level as Grendlesen is (He has like 10 different embellishments, most of which are Imperial-themed) just that it could have done with something like a few of the small details he has. Specifically these two, the Squat-themed ones:
Just the belt buckle or the backpack icon (which, regardless of what you think of the whole "Fantasy Dwarf Theming", the Dwarf-face logo and Runes evidently are part of these new models too as they're shown in the reveal video) would make a big difference, but even then, it's not about whether it's specifically fantasy Dwarf stuff or not, it could be anything really, as long as it showcases some level of theming for them that elevates them above just a basic sci-fi look. Currently there's nothing at all to give even a vague semblance of there being more.
Again, even the basic Imperial Guard, Space Marine, Tau, Necron, Genestealer Cult and Ork miniatures have various embellishments and details that link them to their army/theme. Without anything like that at all on the new miniature it feels a bit lacking, It would be like making a new Imperial unit that doesn't feature an Aquila (or similar) anywhere.
All I think they should have done with the new version is add that logo on the backpack, maybe on the belt too, and I feel like like a padded undersuit would have been a bit more interesting (and would have been a bit more unique) - so not a substantial change to their overall design and certainly not the whole sunglasses biker thing again. Still practical, still the high-tech theming, not over-done with the fantasy aesthetic and not an absurd level of detail beyond what you'd expect from a basic trooper, just a bit more life and character to it rather than the "nothing" that the miniature has.
So fundamentally you are ok with the design except for the lack of a couple of dwarf embellishments?
I personally dont see the overall design of the Kin change anything or adding anything relevant with those couple embellishments. Unless they go overboard and cover all the armour with these decorative features, like they do most times, and the armour is no longer visible.
See the Necromunda model? Count how many tiny skulls you see there and that is the exact problem I speak off and really dont need on the model.
Its early days though, I love the design as his, different from the old squats funny take on fantasy, not an imperial guard or Necromunda low tech copy paste variant but something actually new and fresh.
This looks actually also fun to paint as opposed to micro dwarf skull detail work.
I think there is a bit of a conflict on your arguments saying that these have no concept just because they are missing a couple dwarf icons though.
Specially when decals would add exactly that to shoulder pads etc.
Im afraid to see the helmet versions though I have the feeling they will mess it up
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Sigh.
This is a non-argument that's just tiring. People want different things. Learn to live with that.
It’s a good thing there are so many other manufacturers making different things. GW makes GW minis. Or they used to. I guess you finally got them to change who they are.:shrug:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:First, the Cadians are at most three-quarters Starship Troopers.
Second, the Cadians have aquilas a-plenty.
Third, IG had a lot of options from the totally-Blanche Vostroyans to the generic 80’s action hero Catachans. Perhaps the Squats will get the same treatment.
This would make the previewed minis significantly more palatable...
If they were just a specific warband that specializes in void combat cool and they use others to denote the width of Squat culture. If the AncestorLord looks plain that's just mean.
Of course people are overlooking the fact that GW could do both. The faction might have units that are pure sci-fi advanced in style with perhaps more modern armour and weapons and then ancients or relic or runic armours that are elaborate and extravagant. Heck perhaps they start out mostly one and a little the other and then over time the army gets so popular they split development lines into two forces.
GaroRobe wrote: I mean, if people want Space Dwarfs that are very dwarf-y, and are still GW, why not just do KO?
Just swap in the arms and the occasional helmetless head over the KO units, and bam, dwarfs covered in runes and glyphs, but are still sci-fi.
That’s something I came close to doing …before the sticker shock got me. But I wouldn’t pay GW prices that, and I’m even less likely to pay GW prices for a miniature that looks like an early Gates of Antares design or Studio McVey one-off with Stargrave proportions. The feet are the most distinctive part of the new Squat miniature to me. I’m hoping the helmet looks good, too. If it’s another Newcromunda Enforcer marinelet helmet, what a wasted opportunity.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Sigh.
This is a non-argument that's just tiring. People want different things. Learn to live with that.
It’s a good thing there are so many other manufacturers making different things. GW makes GW minis. Or they used to. I guess you finally got them to change who they are.:shrug:
See your strange idea of what GW IP is and that they should stick to it is what makes GW not to invest in branching into new concepts. Playing safe gets boring fast.
AoS seems healthier with new armies and look and models etc...
I will just say this, theres loads of anime mech things from other manufacturers yet GW did (and very well) branch into Tau.
You probably dont like Tau but I think they are essential to contra balance the grim darkish gothic skull spam and bring in people with a different aesthetic preference.
Personally I believe this is just a regular troop option and that you will still have the overthetop detailed heavy heroes and specials.
Again, just where has anyone where here asked for the basic troopers to be "overthetop detailed heavy" miniatures? You're really missing the point if that's what you think is being asked for.
Wasn't your main example of what you think they should look like the Necromunda Squat?
No, I've not at all said that I want them to all be heavily detailed to the same level as Grendlesen is (He has like 10 different embellishments, most of which are Imperial-themed) just that it could have done with something like a few of the small details he has. Specifically these two, the Squat-themed ones:
Just the belt buckle or the backpack icon (which, regardless of what you think of the whole "Fantasy Dwarf Theming", the Dwarf-face logo and Runes evidently are part of these new models too as they're shown in the reveal video) would make a big difference, but even then, it's not about whether it's specifically fantasy Dwarf stuff or not, it could be anything really, as long as it showcases some level of theming for them that elevates them above just a basic sci-fi look. Currently there's nothing at all to give even a vague semblance of there being more.
Again, even the basic Imperial Guard, Space Marine, Tau, Necron, Genestealer Cult and Ork miniatures have various embellishments and details that link them to their army/theme. Without anything like that at all on the new miniature it feels a bit lacking, It would be like making a new Imperial unit that doesn't feature an Aquila (or similar) anywhere.
All I think they should have done with the new version is add that logo on the backpack, maybe on the belt too, and I feel like like a padded undersuit would have been a bit more interesting (and would have been a bit more unique) - so not a substantial change to their overall design and certainly not the whole sunglasses biker thing again. Still practical, still the high-tech theming, not over-done with the fantasy aesthetic and not an absurd level of detail beyond what you'd expect from a basic trooper, just a bit more life and character to it rather than the "nothing" that the miniature has.
So fundamentally you are ok with the design except for the lack of a couple of dwarf embellishments?
I personally dont see the overall design of the Kin change anything or adding anything relevant with those couple embellishments. Unless they go overboard and cover all the armour with these decorative features, like they do most times, and the armour is no longer visible.
See the Necromunda model? Count how many tiny skulls you see there and that is the exact problem I speak off and really dont need on the model.
I just said they don't have to be specifically Dwarf-themed and that Grendlesen has far more than necessary, the majority of which are Imperial themed and thus wouldn't fit (All the skull purity seals, the Aquila and Winged skulls). Only 2 out of 9 of his embellishments are clearly Squat/Dwarf themed so evidently related to their society.
My issue is rather than them being "Sci-fi with aspects of Fantasy Dwarf theming" (which is what they were before and what Grendlesen was), the model seems to not have the usual elements of a fantasy dwarf theme but that lack of them has been replaced with nothing in its place, making them feel bland. Unlike say the Kharadron Overlords which are "Fantasy Dwarf + Steampunk Sky Pirates", these don't appear to have a unique element to distinguish them and make them stand out compared to other settings. It wouldn't matter to me if say, they had a Nautical/Aquatic theme instead or something like that, it's that they don't have even a slight semblance of either the usual fantasy dwarf theming or anything else beyond just "generic sci-fi".
Neither is it about if something like those icons on the backpack would drastically change the models look, it's that they'd give at least a hint of being part of a army/society with a distinct theme and identity.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/04/03 22:45:53
I like busy gothic over-the-top models, I just don't think everything needs to be like that. And yes, these have somewhat different aesthetic than GW's typical Imperial aesthetic, which is good thing, as they're not an imperial faction.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
I dont think you're getting the point. its the redundancy thats seems to be the argument being made for and against.
Eldar are great, but you dont see an elf head as their belt buckle to show you they are "ELDAR tm". Dwarves on the other hand, are clearly distinctive, but lets put dwarf heads on everything, because the only thing that distinguishes them from anything else is a beard. *yawn* yawn I say.
Personally, as interesting as squats returning might be, I just wish that GW would get their core game elements and factions right before introducing or perhaps reintroducing novel or novelty models for the SALEZ. New and improved is the lie of the last hundred years, tiresome on every front, and GW is wearing even this suspect trope thin.
Overread wrote: Of course people are overlooking the fact that GW could do both. The faction might have units that are pure sci-fi advanced in style with perhaps more modern armour and weapons and then ancients or relic or runic armours that are elaborate and extravagant. Heck perhaps they start out mostly one and a little the other and then over time the army gets so popular they split development lines into two forces.
The teaser video showed off more than one model with what appeared to be pick axes attached to their armour, so there is that...
From the scant bits we've been privy to I'm under the impressions the design studio have been busy playing a lot of Deep Rock Galactic!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Sigh.
This is a non-argument that's just tiring. People want different things. Learn to live with that.
It’s a good thing there are so many other manufacturers making different things. GW makes GW minis. Or they used to. I guess you finally got them to change who they are.:shrug:
See your strange idea of what GW IP is and that they should stick to it is what makes GW not to invest in branching into new concepts. Playing safe gets boring fast.
AoS seems healthier with new armies and look and models etc...
I will just say this, theres loads of anime mech things from other manufacturers yet GW did (and very well) branch into Tau.
You probably dont like Tau but I think they are essential to contra balance the grim darkish gothic skull spam and bring in people with a different aesthetic preference.
That’s a good point. Tau were pretty refreshing when GW was all I knew. I suppose if all you care about or are aware of is GW, the design could be a new direction for you.
I still find it odd in a post-Chaoterhouse world for a company that squatted the Bretonnians and Tomb Kings and changed orcs and elves to orruks and aelves to then go and make a mini so ….let’s call it streamlined.
2 boxes of troops, a bike gang. and tarantulas and mole mortars.
THIS was my first foray into 40K.
As to the new ones, I'm sure the upscaling of the figures, the Tau armor and weapons, and the "Total rework" of them will destroy the old aesthetic to the point where they will be as generic as ever.
It's not honestly a question of "Wanting Space Dwarfs," as it is at having a go at just basic kit-bashing and building a 40K army of your own, as much as it shocks GW, the allure of 40K was, and is making an army your own.
My Squats are not just a generic Space Dwarf, if I may be so bold. They were my first tabletop 40K level army. Before that, My RT army was about a half a dozen mercenaries and a Space Marine to lead them. The Squats were like the incursion into an Ork world, and then by the middle of 2d edition, they were an Inquisition support army. The Space Marine was traded up to a 2d level Inquisitor and a scout squad from the Tyranid Attack game enhanced the force.
The Guard and the Leman Russ came later, and the road to ruin was paved...
See?
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
I dont think you're getting the point. its the redundancy thats seems to be the argument being made for and against.
Eldar are great, but you dont see an elf head as their belt buckle to show you they are "ELDAR tm". Dwarves on the other hand, are clearly distinctive, but lets put dwarf heads on everything, because the only thing that distinguishes them from anything else is a beard. *yawn* yawn I say.
You can be distinctive without being stupid.
Except for yknow, how the Imperial Guard tends to have the Aquila or the guard symbol in several places typically on their weapons and armour, Space Marines have their winged skull and variations of the Aquila and the like on their chest and weapons, the Mechanicus miniatures have the Cog on their chest and elsewhere, Necrons have the Ankh of the Triarch in the center of their chest, the Tau have the Empire symbol on their shoulder pad, Orks have their various Orky Glyphs, Genestealer Cults have their icon carried on chains and such, Inquisition miniatures tend to have a Rossette of some kind....
...do you not realize that the reason that the dwarf head appears in multiple places on GW Dwarfs...is because that's their faction/army icon representing them overall?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/04/03 23:55:32
Andykp wrote: These models aren’t going to look like old squats, but you will be able to tell they are squats, the lore released so far is not contrary to any of the old stuff, it’s nods to nostalgia.
They also aren’t going to be fantasy dwarves, even dwarves in fantasy aren’t fantasy dwarves anymore.
I personally hope they don’t do the heavy ornamentation thing, so glad I got the option on marines to not got that route. Less is more sometimes. But tastes vary, but I for one am just happy they are were my main opponent in my early days playing 1st/2nd edition and can’t wait to have them back.
I've not seen anyone here saying they want heavy ornamentation, just something to give them a more noticeable theme and make them less bland. It doesn't have anything at all, not even the same level of ornamentation/detail most other basic troopers get.
It’s ok to leave some stuff for painters to do, it’s nice to have some space to paint. It’s a personal preference thing, I like my models uncluttered personally. Others like the “gothic” OTT look. For all we know this range might have both. His lack of ornamentation currently makes him stand out, as does his nearly imperial/nearly tau weapons. It’s all familiar but not quite. A bit like I hope the faction will be, not quite imperial, not quite not. Like I said I am glad they are back, I would have loved squats just like bob olleys but think I will love these too, and they might stick around this time. What ever through. Squats are BACK! I am a happy camper.
Third, IG had a lot of options from the totally-Blanche Vostroyans to the generic 80’s action hero Catachans. Perhaps the Squats will get the same treatment.
Starship Troopers the movie is 75% Cadians as it came after the models we still use today, and copied heavily the IG aesthetics of the time. On the other hand GW did borrow from the book for the SM, granted that power armor, flying marines with fancy weapons that can level a city was not really a novel trope when Heinlein wrote the book.
M.
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
Andykp wrote: These models aren’t going to look like old squats, but you will be able to tell they are squats, the lore released so far is not contrary to any of the old stuff, it’s nods to nostalgia.
They also aren’t going to be fantasy dwarves, even dwarves in fantasy aren’t fantasy dwarves anymore.
I personally hope they don’t do the heavy ornamentation thing, so glad I got the option on marines to not got that route. Less is more sometimes. But tastes vary, but I for one am just happy they are were my main opponent in my early days playing 1st/2nd edition and can’t wait to have them back.
I've not seen anyone here saying they want heavy ornamentation, just something to give them a more noticeable theme and make them less bland. It doesn't have anything at all, not even the same level of ornamentation/detail most other basic troopers get.
It’s ok to leave some stuff for painters to do, it’s nice to have some space to paint. It’s a personal preference thing, I like my models uncluttered personally. Others like the “gothic” OTT look. For all we know this range might have both. His lack of ornamentation currently makes him stand out, as does his nearly imperial/nearly tau weapons. It’s all familiar but not quite. A bit like I hope the faction will be, not quite imperial, not quite not. Like I said I am glad they are back, I would have loved squats just like bob olleys but think I will love these too, and they might stick around this time. What ever through. Squats are BACK! I am a happy camper.
Again, as I've said several times in this thread so far, a small faction logo somewhere on their armour would not be some drastic over-the-top gothic grimdark level of detail. It would simply be the same level of ornamentation commonly seen on the majority of basic troops across various 40k armies.
Andykp wrote: These models aren’t going to look like old squats, but you will be able to tell they are squats, the lore released so far is not contrary to any of the old stuff, it’s nods to nostalgia.
They also aren’t going to be fantasy dwarves, even dwarves in fantasy aren’t fantasy dwarves anymore.
I personally hope they don’t do the heavy ornamentation thing, so glad I got the option on marines to not got that route. Less is more sometimes. But tastes vary, but I for one am just happy they are were my main opponent in my early days playing 1st/2nd edition and can’t wait to have them back.
I've not seen anyone here saying they want heavy ornamentation, just something to give them a more noticeable theme and make them less bland. It doesn't have anything at all, not even the same level of ornamentation/detail most other basic troopers get.
It’s ok to leave some stuff for painters to do, it’s nice to have some space to paint. It’s a personal preference thing, I like my models uncluttered personally. Others like the “gothic” OTT look. For all we know this range might have both. His lack of ornamentation currently makes him stand out, as does his nearly imperial/nearly tau weapons. It’s all familiar but not quite. A bit like I hope the faction will be, not quite imperial, not quite not. Like I said I am glad they are back, I would have loved squats just like bob olleys but think I will love these too, and they might stick around this time. What ever through. Squats are BACK! I am a happy camper.
Again, as I've said several times in this thread so far, a small faction logo somewhere on their armour would not be some drastic over-the-top gothic grimdark level of detail. It would simply be the same level of ornamentation commonly seen on the majority of basic troops across various 40k armies.
So are we not counting the iconography on his shoulder pads at all then?
