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Vorian wrote:
Also, since Navigators are basically lifted from Dune and in Dune they are ultimately replaced by machines that calculated their flight path, I'd be fine with machines calculating it for the squats.

Great. So now you need to explain why tau, eldar and especially necrons are complete feth-wits.
Though eldar at least have alternatives and downsides.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful

Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems

As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.

Nah, the cloneskins article said they can clone Psykers that were engineered to be not noticeable in the warp and suffer 0 mutations.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/10/the-lore-of-the-leagues-who-are-the-kin-and-where-do-they-come-from/

If you actually read the article rather than just whine for sane of whiningas you always do you would see they are seen in warp.

But as whining for sake of whining is your sole life goal here　won't do that.

Ironkin looks pretty cool.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful

Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems

It’s almost as if you and Voss are just cherry picking. On account you’re clearly cherry picking.

The Leagues depend upon their Votann. The Votann are breaking down, and they don’t know how to fix them.

And please, don’t pretend what’s been teased is therefore the totality. I know you think it’s great for a quick, aimless whine, but it’s really not.

I get the impression the downside to them is that the Kin are the ones enslaved too, with the Votann being Men of Stone who at some point engineered the Kin to be subservient to them...and then things went wrong. An inverse of the Men of Iron situation.

Even if the Adeptus Mechanicus buy the excuse of the Ironkin being just regular non-sapient robots, that still wouldn't stop them from wanting to acquire some as they would be able to see that the Ironkin are STC derived/descended, just like the Kastelan robots.

I think the whole Dwarves being a dying race theme will be from the Votann going slow or going mad. Fewer clone templates to choose from and batches becoming smaller or more infrequent.

Probably, and then get told no, with guns if needed to make the point stick.

What the Admech wants, and what the Admech can get are very entirely different categories.

I'm not sure why the Votann AI cores would matter. The squats n' bots are clearly capable in their own right. It doesn't matter if the mighty Oz spends a century or two grinding out the answer to some random question.

They've got reproduction, science, warp travel and psychics solved beyond all seeming reproach, and what looks like a happy, healthy society by modern standards, let alone 40k standards.

Iracundus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful

Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems

As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.

Not really. Imperial ships are capable of calculated jumps too. Navigators are only needed for long extended journeys.

Maybe this is how the Kin solved the problem of long distance warp travel, using mechanical intellects to do enough fast number crunching to generate multiple probable paths, outperforming the old system of non-sapient computers calculating plotted jumps. The rest of humanity went down gene engineering/mutation until there was a stable mutation that could see the warp intuitively and steer through it without having to perform an inhuman number of fast calculations.

I'mma need a citation for that, they regularly make blind jumps which is to say 0 navigation or a hit and hope. The empyrean is regularly described as a sea with ebbs and flows, smooth navigation requires seeing these ebbs and flows, which would require a psyker.

"Blind" calculated jumps have been a thing since forever, as the IoM doesn't have enough Navigators for every ship.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp_jump#Calculated_jumps

The Leagues are just better at math.

The Leagues like the Tau before them will be perfect, right up until someone in Nottingham has to grimdark them.

Voss wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Also, since Navigators are basically lifted from Dune and in Dune they are ultimately replaced by machines that calculated their flight path, I'd be fine with machines calculating it for the squats.

Great. So now you need to explain why tau, eldar and especially necrons are complete feth-wits.
Though eldar at least have alternatives and downsides.

Eldar don't need the Warp cause they've got the Webway, and Necrons have already figured out FTL without even needing the Warp, that also turns out to be way faster.

As for the T'au, they're on their way to figuring it out. Gravitic Drives already allow them Faster than Light Speeds, but are just not as fast as the other methods.

Dudeface wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful

Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems

As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.

Not really. Imperial ships are capable of calculated jumps too. Navigators are only needed for long extended journeys.

Maybe this is how the Kin solved the problem of long distance warp travel, using mechanical intellects to do enough fast number crunching to generate multiple probable paths, outperforming the old system of non-sapient computers calculating plotted jumps. The rest of humanity went down gene engineering/mutation until there was a stable mutation that could see the warp intuitively and steer through it without having to perform an inhuman number of fast calculations.

I'mma need a citation for that, they regularly make blind jumps which is to say 0 navigation or a hit and hope. The empyrean is regularly described as a sea with ebbs and flows, smooth navigation requires seeing these ebbs and flows, which would require a psyker.

The Dark Heresy RPGs do not require a Navigator to make jumps, but they make navigating easier. Chartist captains use charts and ply the same routes over and over, without a Navigator.

Also

It is possible for a ship to make short warp jumps of about four to five light years with a certain degree of accuracy. However, over longer distances it is necessary to steer through warp space itself. The warp is like an ocean, with currents, storms and tides that must be used or avoided. For the Imperium, only the mutated Navigators are able to see the shifting eddies of the warp and direct a ship between them, thus steering the ship towards its ultimate destination

p. 85, BFG rulebook

The quote contrasts short calculated warp jumps over the longer journeys that require extended travel in the warp and which require a Navigator. Warp travel was invented before Navigators came about. It's just that it is far slower requiring "resurfacing" into reality to get your bearings again and then doing another short jump. That would play into longer term operational and strategic mobility.

 Geifer wrote:
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that Aiyernkyn have been around for thousands of years and no one in the Adeptus Mechanicus ever got any funny ideas.

Considering most tech-priests are canonically about as good at "getting ideas" as a potato and about as clever as a 60s toaster, I don't find this hard to believe.

Voss wrote:

Seriously, this better be hype crap with a catch, but they are going to have a hell of a time walking ALL this back in the face of how excited they're making people.
Personally its turning me off, because it feels like Squats won 40k. Every single fundamental problem in the setting is simply solved, with no downside.
These things are even capable of warp-navigation, for feth's sake!

I can think of no more fitting middle finger raised to the self-important fetishistic misery porn that is the rest of the 40k setting, if this turns out to be true. I doubt it will, but I'd love it to.

Rock and stone, my dudes.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that Aiyernkyn have been around for thousands of years and no one in the Adeptus Mechanicus ever got any funny ideas.

Considering most tech-priests are canonically about as good at "getting ideas" as a potato and about as clever as a 60s toaster, I don't find this hard to believe.

Even so, they would want to get their hands on it since it is human tech, descended or related to STC designs like their own Kastelans. The Adeptus Mechanicus wants to hoard any STC related knowledge. If they did get their hands on Ironkin scrap, then they might start to realize something is different...

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful

Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems

It’s almost as if you and Voss are just cherry picking. On account you’re clearly cherry picking.

And please, don’t pretend what’s been teased is therefore the totality. I know you think it’s great for a quick, aimless whine, but it’s really not.

It's almost as if that's exactly what their articles said.

The article says that the robots are not capable of emotions and can only imitate them to fit in. SO no, its not exactly what the articles said, I'd wager if you went through them you would find a number of other inaccuracies in your post.

I am actually thinking that as this seems relate to whole Men of Gold -> Stone -> Iron myth, I have sneaking suspension that this myth is not so mythic at all.

What if Men of Iron rebellion is what actually led to creation of Votann society? Maybe Votanns are not creations of Men of Gold but bio-engineered creation of Abominable Intellingence based on Men of Stone, to prove that humans are not master of none and the machine can exceed them in every way.

Would explain how society of AI and organics can fuction without schism for machine knows its the true master.

Society of clones created and led by ancient machines that are increasingly slowing down, going insane...

 Sotahullu wrote:
I am actually thinking that as this seems relate to whole Men of Gold -> Stone -> Iron myth, I have sneaking suspension that this myth is not so mythic at all.

What if Men of Iron rebellion is what actually led to creation of Votann society? Maybe Votanns are not creations of Men of Gold but bio-engineered creation of Abominable Intellingence based on Men of Stone, to prove that humans are not master of none and the machine can exceed them in every way.

Would explain how society of AI and organics can fuction without schism for machine knows its the true master.

Society of clones created and led by ancient machines that are increasingly slowing down, going insane...

Kin engineered by the Votann (men of stone) alongside the Men of Iron, only for things to go wrong and ending up in a situation they have become so integral to their society that they're worshipped and have now started breaking down. Reverse of the Humanity enslaving the Men of Iron / Stone situation where it's the Kin who are effectively enslaved.

Why is people taking Warhammer Community snipets at face value? They always paint things much better than they are.


Look at Redemptor Dreadnought articles, how it was the biggest new thing. And then with the codex we learned it literally burns its ocupants like batteries.

I'm sure there will be a good bunch of grimdark undertones in the Squat codex when released. And hopefully, it will be done with some kind of tact, to not make them mustache twirling villains after community outrage like with Tau.

The Mechanicus never looked into stealing any of the cool tech the Squats had back in the day - gyros, land trains, cyclops, etc. - so why should they be any different now with the Votann?

 Galas wrote:

Look at Redemptor Dreadnought articles, how it was the biggest new thing. And then with the codex we learned it literally burns its ocupants like batteries.

Thats a stretch/mischaracterization of the fluff. It doesn't "burn" is occupants for fuel/"like batteries", it burns them out over time because of the mental and physical strain it places on their mind and body to control the suit, because the design didn't prioritize life support and sustainment functionality in the same way that the previous dreadnought classes did and thus places a greater burden on the already injured/near-death pilots that inhabit it.

 Shakalooloo wrote:
The Mechanicus never looked into stealing any of the cool tech the Squats had back in the day - gyros, land trains, cyclops, etc. - so why should they be any different now with the Votann?

What comes to mind is that Squats barely existed outside of Rogue Trader and many of the foundations of the 40k background, as changing is can be at times, didn't exist in cohesive form until 2nd ed. Even then the darker and more serious tone was a 3rd ed addition.

There is not that much overlap between everything that existed on Squats before they got squatted and the Mechanicus background as we know it today.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
The Leagues like the Tau before them will be perfect, right up until someone in Nottingham has to grimdark them.

Tau had the benefit of turning up with glaring holes in their world view, tech base, and game performance. There are things they're consistently bad at and that hasn't changed over the years.
Even the things they did well had trade offs (like plasma: no gets hot, but lower strength). Their more positive outlook was naivety, not perfection.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Look at Redemptor Dreadnought articles, how it was the biggest new thing. And then with the codex we learned it literally burns its ocupants like batteries.

Thats a stretch/mischaracterization of the fluff. It doesn't "burn" is occupants for fuel/"like batteries", it burns them out over time because of the mental and physical strain it places on their mind and body to control the suit, because the design didn't prioritize life support and sustainment functionality in the same way that the previous dreadnought classes did and thus places a greater burden on the already injured/near-death pilots that inhabit it.

I do t think the battery analogy is too far from the mark. Ultimately the pilots are consumable entities that need replacing regularly in order for the thing to function. Remote control cars require a primary power source for the vehicle and one for the controller. Similar idea here, except the controller “power source” is a human intellect.

Given the loadout and what they mention in the article, I think we may only get a few of these guys sprinkled around the army. There could be a unit of them, but I think they're just the servitors/dark acolytes/grot orderly/ammo runt equivalent for squats. Something that tags along with a character, maybe has some attacks, but mostly soaks up damage and provides buffs.

Difference is that the pilots aren't the power source, they are pilots who are slowly killed by the strain that the machine they are piloting puts on their bodies.

 GaroRobe wrote:
Given the loadout and what they mention in the article, I think we may only get a few of these guys sprinkled around the army. There could be a unit of them, but I think they're just the servitors/dark acolytes/grot orderly/ammo runt equivalent for squats. Something that tags along with a character, maybe has some attacks, but mostly soaks up damage and provides buffs.

Dunno, they specifically mentioned Shock Troops.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Difference is that the pilots aren't the power source, they are pilots who are slowly killed by the strain that the machine they are piloting puts on their bodies.

That’s why it’s an analogy…

 Flinty wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Difference is that the pilots aren't the power source, they are pilots who are slowly killed by the strain that the machine they are piloting puts on their bodies.

That’s why it’s an analogy…

What you do in the privacy of your bedroom is your business, leave me out of it!

Perhaps the Ironkin are just strait up-lied about. The imperium itself is NOT opposed to extreme bionics. Some space marines have had every limb replaced and are still battle brothers, not to mention Dreadnoughts.

If I were a Squat and had to explain an Ironkin I'd say, "Oh, Bob, yeah, he took a meltabomb to the chest and had all the right connections for super-bionics. Nothing to see here."

 GaroRobe wrote:
Given the loadout and what they mention in the article, I think we may only get a few of these guys sprinkled around the army. There could be a unit of them, but I think they're just the servitors/dark acolytes/grot orderly/ammo runt equivalent for squats. Something that tags along with a character, maybe has some attacks, but mostly soaks up damage and provides buffs.

Yep- I'm wondering if they appear within regular kin units or have units of their own. This guy clearly works beside a master engineer [Brôkhyr Iron-masters] and there at least 2 rumour engines that point to more of these models - maybe set of a Brôkhyr Iron-master and 2 ironkin [as opposed to servitors]. They are a bit like the forge assistant in the old Anvil of Doom.

I like how combat pilots are mentioned, suggesting possible aircraft, there being larger COG robots[ [walker kit?] as well as shock troops and I wonder if they are the combat medics as well. It makes the faction very distinct having AI robots throughout the force.