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GaroRobe wrote: It may have been mentioned already, but there is artwork of the "original" squat designs that appear in the codex. A nice call back to the original army and I guess evidence that those iterations of squats are still canon to 40k
Ah thats cool, which piece of art is it? I take it not the one of the Squat with the hoverboard haha.
Yes seconded. For those of us plebs that don't have the book, what classic art/designs are there?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They clearly don't even know how tall they are since they're described as 4 feet or 1.4 meters
and 4 feet is 1.2 meters
and 1.4 meters is 4 1/2 feet (which is a lot easier to believe equates to 5 feet when you include helmets and thick soled boots)
I'm willing to go with 4 feet as the intended measurement. It's far more likely that, no disrespect intended, backwards islanders measuring in body parts of dead saints would get the conversion to scientifically sound measurements wrong than botch the awkward measurements they are supposed to be familiar with.
Speculation on my part, but in my opinion tall Squats, like a lot of other things, are just GW being bad at scaling things because they don't bother to have a naked member of a race in neutral pose against which to check their sculpts. They're far more interested in creating models that look or feel right in isolation in accordance with their chosen style, making only the barest effort towards fitting them in with the rest of their models. GW dwarfs before they got embiggened towards the end of Fantasy's lifespan were quite small and unimpressive. That goes against GW's modern style of hefty models with large, plentiful and recognizable detail. The larger dwarf may not be representative of the supposed size of the average member of the race, but both in isolation and held side by side with an old one it looks impressive and, as subjective as that is, just right for the desired style.
As another example, consider Terminators. Terminator armor, just the armor, looks cool. It has a very distinctive look. Yet it's unfathomable that it could have been sculpted that way if the sculptor had even for a second considered human anatomy. Even if you say sculpting thirty years ago wasn't advanced enough and sculptors got all manner of things wrong as part of the learning process, the look of Terminators wasn't changed in later iterations either. The poses were opened up and didn't look quite like the blocky old, simple casts anymore, but the style and horrid anatomy stayed intact. Because, as it seems to me, style rates far higher at GW than verisimilitude.
It's also a handy way of explaining the humongous Praetors in the Horus Heresy box. Apparently somebody thought they needed to be unreasonably large.
I'd like for GW to give more consideration to scale and proportions, and have said so time and again. But truth be told, it's just not something that should be reasonably expected of GW. They just don't work like that and for every instance where it seems they put effort towards fixing things, they release something questionable again that makes you wonder if they have any direction at all. There is probably no point in dwelling on what the exact size of a space dwarf is because GW will settle on different numbers and not worry about how irreconcilable that is.
Therefore I propose that what we're looking at are Schrödinger's Squats that are at the same time 4 and 5 feet tall, and if you really want to they're 1.4m tall as well.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/20 10:04:52
From “Being Squatted” to becoming “The New Squattness”!!
Reading the various reviews or watching YouTube reports has been super interesting. Did they set up reviewers to paint and play test with past releases? It seems really well coordinated.
Overall I feel pretty happy with there new space dwarves. I think there are some things that were spot on, and some misses (imo). Is there anything missing that we can expect to see in the next couple years? Dedicated scouts? Flyer? Super heavy tank?
I missed out on the pre-order box, but I’m not certain I needed all that right now. My local GW confirmed they will have lots of the free minis on the 24th so I’ll get to play with painting at least one then. I’m leaning towards a Greater Thurian League scheme, which I know hasn’t been a favourite. But hey I like Ultramarines too
pleasestopit wrote: Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
IMO they're doing it deliberately, but for practical reasons. Just as all their heads, hands and weapons are oversized, they're oversizing small statured models so they don't look ridiculous.
Let's say that a primaris is 8 feet and they use a 5mm=1 foot scale. A 6 foot human is 30mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is 40mm tall and a 4 foot votann would be 20mm tall.
from an aesthetic perspective having an army that's 20mm tall would look pretty ridiculous, especially when you're trying to sell them as a hardy warrior race. They'd look very small, be very fiddly and not have a lot of imposing quality when on the battlefield.
So, for good or ill, IMO I think GW have a heroic scale for their models deliberately so they look good on the table. This goes for sisters and guard and eldar as well.
Any news when the kits will be released on their own? I'm interested in grabbing the base squad just to paint in some of those sick lego space color schemes. And maybe some of the beserkers as 30k Ogryn count-as.
pleasestopit wrote: Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
IMO they're doing it deliberately, but for practical reasons. Just as all their heads, hands and weapons are oversized, they're oversizing small statured models so they don't look ridiculous.
Let's say that a primaris is 8 feet and they use a 5mm=1 foot scale. A 6 foot human is 30mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is 40mm tall and a 4 foot votann would be 20mm tall.
from an aesthetic perspective having an army that's 20mm tall would look pretty ridiculous, especially when you're trying to sell them as a hardy warrior race. They'd look very small, be very fiddly and not have a lot of imposing quality when on the battlefield.
So, for good or ill, IMO I think GW have a heroic scale for their models deliberately so they look good on the table. This goes for sisters and guard and eldar as well.
This is something you really notice in the 3D printing world where there are a lot of designers from 3D game and art backgrounds getting into model making via making renders for people to print. A lot of them use true-scale because when that's rendered (and rendered at full screen size so utterly massive compared to a model) it looks fantastic.
However you end up with super thin parts that break really easily even with good resin. Because the models aren't practical for game objects. You get too much detail; you get details overlapping; thin parts and more. All things that GW seems very good at avoiding - likely because their sculptors are working side by side with their casting team and doing test prints all the way along.
So I can totally get making small things "bigger" and not everything true scale so that things are more practical as game objects.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Any news when the kits will be released on their own? I'm interested in grabbing the base squad just to paint in some of those sick lego space color schemes. And maybe some of the beserkers as 30k Ogryn count-as.
Curious about this as well. I had hoped they would get rules for killteam so i'd have an excuse to buy and paint up a box of the basic troops. Starting an army for 40k is out of the question right now. But I like the basic infantry enough to collect a box. And the kit seems to be designed with a multitude of options that would be perfect for KT. Hopefully it won't be more than a month long wait.
pleasestopit wrote: Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
IMO they're doing it deliberately, but for practical reasons. Just as all their heads, hands and weapons are oversized, they're oversizing small statured models so they don't look ridiculous.
Let's say that a primaris is 8 feet and they use a 5mm=1 foot scale. A 6 foot human is 30mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is 40mm tall and a 4 foot votann would be 20mm tall.
from an aesthetic perspective having an army that's 20mm tall would look pretty ridiculous, especially when you're trying to sell them as a hardy warrior race. They'd look very small, be very fiddly and not have a lot of imposing quality when on the battlefield.
So, for good or ill, IMO I think GW have a heroic scale for their models deliberately so they look good on the table. This goes for sisters and guard and eldar as well.
This is something you really notice in the 3D printing world where there are a lot of designers from 3D game and art backgrounds getting into model making via making renders for people to print. A lot of them use true-scale because when that's rendered (and rendered at full screen size so utterly massive compared to a model) it looks fantastic.
However you end up with super thin parts that break really easily even with good resin. Because the models aren't practical for game objects. You get too much detail; you get details overlapping; thin parts and more. All things that GW seems very good at avoiding - likely because their sculptors are working side by side with their casting team and doing test prints all the way along.
So I can totally get making small things "bigger" and not everything true scale so that things are more practical as game objects.
Yes, GW is usually pretty good at scaling things to look the part at actual model size. It gives their models a certain appeal that is not necessarily found on their competitors' models.
Interestingly GW abandoned that to a degree on Sisters of Battle who have some very delicate skull and fleur-de-lys motifs. Especially some of the skulls lack definition and the depth of detail you'd expect of GW. It's an understandable move, considering GW's style is generally beefy and Sisters are pretty slender and more delicate detail goes with that, but you can see that it does not cast very well with GW's methods.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Its considerably more convenient for, casting in hips, sculpt face expressions, overall design, durability for war-game has opposed collector for display etc to have scale increased and that is what GW been doing since they abandoned metal production ( which holds detail a lot smaller and better )... From a client perspective its also better since easier to assemble chunk parts, more durable for what this is intended for (game miniatures), easier to paint and most of all its actually more pleasing to see on the table as an army than micro detailed small true 25mm/ 28mm.
Theres plenty more reasons but from production point of view does make sense to have a few extra mm. In the end they look just fine as they are. Who cares if they dont match 100% AoS dwarfs? not me.
I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Any news when the kits will be released on their own? I'm interested in grabbing the base squad just to paint in some of those sick lego space color schemes. And maybe some of the beserkers as 30k Ogryn count-as.
Curious about this as well. I had hoped they would get rules for killteam so i'd have an excuse to buy and paint up a box of the basic troops. Starting an army for 40k is out of the question right now. But I like the basic infantry enough to collect a box. And the kit seems to be designed with a multitude of options that would be perfect for KT. Hopefully it won't be more than a month long wait.
I wouldn't be shocked if one of the upcoming 'gallowdark' follow-ups has a Votann kill team. As we've seen with the Chaos Marines and the Kommandos, KT boxes are a good way to squeeze an extra SKU for the main army line into the product release cycle.
NAVARRO wrote: I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
I doubt it. GW didn't give Sisters a Christmas box in the year of their release, and that was in January and March. With Squats releasing so late in the year, a Christmas box a month or two after their codex releases seems out of character for GW.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
NAVARRO wrote: I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
I doubt it. GW didn't give Sisters a Christmas box in the year of their release, and that was in January and March. With Squats releasing so late in the year, a Christmas box a month or two after their codex releases seems out of character for GW.
Agreed, I think with the launch box and combat patrol plus waves of models likely running through to November there's no real incentive for GW to put together an xmas box here. I would bet on Votann getting an xmas box in 2023 though.
For 2022 I think it's more likely we see factions like Craftworlds or Orks get a discount box with some of their stuff from 6+ months ago, as unlike Sisters they have far more older models to bundle in with the new.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/21 10:47:40
NAVARRO wrote: I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
New armies usually get a battleforce the following year. The cutoff point seems to be about 7-8 months to be included (Soulblight) But some like Ossiarchs weren't in a battleforce for two years.
NAVARRO wrote: Its considerably more convenient for, casting in hips, sculpt face expressions, overall design, durability for war-game has opposed collector for display etc to have scale increased and that is what GW been doing since they abandoned metal production ( which holds detail a lot smaller and better )... From a client perspective its also better since easier to assemble chunk parts, more durable for what this is intended for (game miniatures), easier to paint and most of all its actually more pleasing to see on the table as an army than micro detailed small true 25mm/ 28mm.
Theres plenty more reasons but from production point of view does make sense to have a few extra mm. In the end they look just fine as they are. Who cares if they dont match 100% AoS dwarfs? not me.
I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
We aren't talking about few mm's though. More like over 20% too big...
Unless you think models are <10mm few mm's is flat out wrong.
People complained about lack of true scale for marines and this is bigger error...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/21 11:58:27
I'd love to see it, but you have some serious work cut out for you considering how much bigger 30K Ogryn are than 40K Ogryn.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/21 12:01:15
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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Most people don't it seems, given that's the standard reaction.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
pleasestopit wrote: Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
Seeing they make helmets same/almost the same size as heads, a body part that should be trivial to compare no matter if on sprue or in 3D software, I kind of doubt that...
Eh, no SM is that tall (see Space Marine 2 trailer). Though funnily enough stupid stone age units strike here too, GW can't decide if canon 7 feet is supposed to be closer to 2 meters or 2.2 (with adeptus uglysquattus tending toward the former and primaris toward the latter, despite both being described as around the same ~7 feet description, go figure).
NAVARRO wrote: I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
I doubt it. GW didn't give Sisters a Christmas box in the year of their release, and that was in January and March. With Squats releasing so late in the year, a Christmas box a month or two after their codex releases seems out of character for GW.
Agreed, I think with the launch box and combat patrol plus waves of models likely running through to November there's no real incentive for GW to put together an xmas box here. I would bet on Votann getting an xmas box in 2023 though.
For 2022 I think it's more likely we see factions like Craftworlds or Orks get a discount box with some of their stuff from 6+ months ago, as unlike Sisters they have far more older models to bundle in with the new.
Cheers. Yeah Im overoptimistic.
I agree...For sure the releases of Sagitaur and Hekaton and all the remaining models will be continuous releases until Christmas, so not much of a reason for a Christmas bundle.
tneva82 wrote:
NAVARRO wrote: Its considerably more convenient for, casting in hips, sculpt face expressions, overall design, durability for war-game has opposed collector for display etc to have scale increased and that is what GW been doing since they abandoned metal production ( which holds detail a lot smaller and better )... From a client perspective its also better since easier to assemble chunk parts, more durable for what this is intended for (game miniatures), easier to paint and most of all its actually more pleasing to see on the table as an army than micro detailed small true 25mm/ 28mm.
Theres plenty more reasons but from production point of view does make sense to have a few extra mm. In the end they look just fine as they are. Who cares if they dont match 100% AoS dwarfs? not me.
I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
We aren't talking about few mm's though. More like over 20% too big...
Unless you think models are <10mm few mm's is flat out wrong.
People complained about lack of true scale for marines and this is bigger error...
Error in the sense of this being an unplanned accident or actually a conscious design decision you just don't agree with?
It does not matter much at this point and I was trying to be constructive in pointing out why I think GW is moving more and more the scale up on most things.
If you think of metal 25 / 28mm of the past in comparison with 32+ of todays plastics it's a clear shift up and I did point out some of the factors that may influenced that.
Either way I'm not saying that for many fans this scale will actually break their immersion, I understand that. The same way space marines before Primaris did not spike my interest much. It's a personal thing.
I would say that if you really want these Votann to be smaller, it's actually not that difficult to convert since you have a clear gap between the trousers and the shoes that you can cut to make them a tad smaller if you wish.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/21 14:52:02
Design of a hoverbike/trike from this month's issue of the Predator comic, by none other than Kev 'Daemonifuge' Walker. I think I'd like the Votann hovertrikes better if they looked more like this, and the big coats would certainly look better if they were done up properly, and not just draped over heavy armour.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Any news when the kits will be released on their own? I'm interested in grabbing the base squad just to paint in some of those sick lego space color schemes. And maybe some of the beserkers as 30k Ogryn count-as.
I asked a retailer locally and they thought within coming weeks, although impossible to say for sure.
