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 Kanluwen wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
No, you have split keywords. All you need is something like:

- KEYWORDS (COMPANY COMMANDER): CHARACTER, INFANTRY, OFFICER, COMPANY COMMANDER
- KEYWORDS (VETERANS): INFANTRY, VETERANS, COMMAND SQUAD

Done, now the CC provides the entire squad LoS and only counts as 3 VP for assassinate. Datasheets with split keywords like this already exist such as Commander Shadowsun.

or even simpler and more in line with what we have now, a "Command Squad" is a rule that lets you take, without using up a FOC slot, for each officer taken in your army:

-1x Signals Officer
-1x Standard
-2x Veteran Bodyguards

I guess it comes down to what purpose you want the Command Squad to perform. Just ablative wounds for the CC? Another special weapon unit? Just bodies to extend auras & order range?

Right now, both these ideas are really just a tax for taking the Company Commander. So what benefit does that tax provide?

Well without a signals officer and a vox trooper in each squad you should not be able to give orders to units outside a few inches from the commander. The bodyguards are the definition of more wounds and firepower that can give a look out sir to any of your command specialists. Amd the banner would confer +1 roll to hit asbit makes a fine wind speed indicator. (Not that last one, i jest)

I don't understand the infatuation with Command Squads. Like, are we talking about the 4 man unit of anything goes, being attached to a CC? Because I'd be all about that, make a 1 man unit a 5 man unit. But only can we take a hint from DoW1 and make Priests and Kasarkin an option?

 Kanluwen wrote:

-1x Signals Officer
-1x Standard
-2x Veteran Bodyguards

This is literally just the current Command Squad, but with even more limited options. They die to a stiff breeze with no character protection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

brainpsyk wrote:
I guess it comes down to what purpose you want the Command Squad to perform. Just ablative wounds for the CC? Another special weapon unit? Just bodies to extend auras & order range?

Right now, both these ideas are really just a tax for taking the Company Commander. So what benefit does that tax provide?

It provides additional wounds to Officers, it provides LoS protection for the Command Squad.

Presumably medics will be heavily buffed to match other 9th edition armies. So 6+++ aura, heal D3 wounds, stratagem to resurrect dead models. Which would be great for the Command Squad.

Jarms48 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

-1x Signals Officer
-1x Standard
-2x Veteran Bodyguards

This is literally just the current Command Squad, but with even more limited options. They die to a stiff breeze with no character protection.

As opposed to a Command Squad, which just dies?

The idea, bluntly, is to have these things as individual unit choices that get to ignore FOCs by being taken with an Officer.

It's a not uncommon trend in 40k currently. Having a Veteran Bodyguard option as a character, able to be taken as 1-2 models per slot is not a bad thing.
Having a Standard that can be taken is not a bad thing.
Having a Signals Officer that can be taken is not a bad thing.

Well looking at how the other codeci have gone it is a good guess that the command squad will go away. What we will probably see in the new codex is the dissapearance of the command squad, for both the regular guard and the stormtroopers. For precedent we can look at the Space Marines and Sisters of Battle. It will also probably be similiar to the Genestealer Cult, where they have additional special rules and restrictions. There is even some precedent for this in the guard, where the Master of Ordinance and the Officer of the fleet used to be command squad upgrades.

So I predict there will be a profile for a standard bearer, a medic, and a voxcaster as independant characters. If we are lucky the will be upgrades that do not take a slot, which will be good as the Elites field is already heavily saturated.

Dirk Reinecke wrote:
Well looking at how the other codeci have gone it is a good guess that the command squad will go away.

What we will probably see in the new codex is the dissapearance of the command squad, for both the regular guard and the stormtroopers.

For precedent we can look at the Space Marines and Sisters of Battle. It will also probably be similiar to the Genestealer Cult, where they have additional special rules and restrictions.

There is even some precedent for this in the guard, where the Master of Ordinance and the Officer of the fleet used to be command squad upgrades.

So I predict there will be a profile for a standard bearer, a medic, and a voxcaster as independant characters.

If we are lucky the will be upgrades that do not take a slot, which will be good as the Elites field is already heavily saturated.

If they go this route, I would like to see it be a "If you have unit X, you can take unit Y without using a slot" situation. You could even have a full-on chain of command implemented that way. For example a Company Commander unlocks a slotless Comms Officer, Master Surgeon and Standard Bearer. The Comms Officer unlocks a slotless Master of Ordinance, the Master Surgeon unlocks a Ministorum Priest, and the Standard Bearer gets you a Commissar.

I would like to see Company Commanders being allowed to take up to X amount of Veteran Guardsmen bodyguards though if command squads go forever. Just give them the same profile and saves as the Commander just with one wound apiece, and let them be used as extra wounds for the very squishy AM commander.

Well an alternative to that would be if they gave the Crusaders the bodygaurd rule the fluff suggests they already have. Given the rewrite that the bodyguard rules have recently gone through, it is a tie between the Imperial Guard and the Genestealer cult for the best bodyguard rules. The in the Genestealer cults models can tank wound for characters on a +4, +3 if it is for the patriach. In the Guard, Nork can tank on a +2 for anyone, Kell can tank for Creed on a +2 and the run of the mill Ogryn Bodguard on a +4 for a character.

So it is interesting to have the unit that is the best for something. Although using a 60pt model to tank for a 35pt model is a bit hilarious.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't understand the infatuation with Command Squads. Like, are we talking about the 4 man unit of anything goes, being attached to a CC? Because I'd be all about that, make a 1 man unit a 5 man unit. But only can we take a hint from DoW1 and make Priests and Kasarkin an option?

I'd like to see command squads mandatory again and be officer+4 to 9 troopers.

Let the troopers take anything, they're the officer's body guard unit, they can use the quartermaster tent like a supermarket. Power fists, power swords, special weapons, flags, med kits, radios... Maybe even fold in the priest and crusaders somehow as wargear options (storm shield and power weapon for X points, rosarius and holy icon for Y points).

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't understand the infatuation with Command Squads. Like, are we talking about the 4 man unit of anything goes, being attached to a CC? Because I'd be all about that, make a 1 man unit a 5 man unit. But only can we take a hint from DoW1 and make Priests and Kasarkin an option?

I'd like to see command squads mandatory again and be officer+4 to 9 troopers.

Let the troopers take anything, they're the officer's body guard unit, they can use the quartermaster tent like a supermarket. Power fists, power swords, special weapons, flags, med kits, radios... Maybe even fold in the priest and crusaders somehow as wargear options (storm shield and power weapon for X points, rosarius and holy icon for Y points).

Wouldn't that just make them, I'm forgetting the exact unit name, but it was something like "Crusaders"? They were a chaff unit for Inquisition lists, and could be 5-15 models I think? Anything from Chain Swords to Power axes, but just Auto-rifles for ranged. Am I miss remembering these?

I don't see the point in an Infantry squad if the Command squad is just a flat out better unit in EVERY aspect. Plus I don't like the Idea of Scion Command Squads dropping out on turn 2 with 10 Meltas inside 12" with auto-wound 6s. Or double shooting plasma rifles. No spank you. Keep Command Squads at 4 please.

Inquisition Acolytes or Henchmen (I forget which they're called now).

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of, a unit that can carry any IG weapon choice, because sometimes after painting 100 riflemen you just want to make something crazy.

Sure limit it to the warlord and have lesser officers capped at the 5 man squad, but I'd love to have at least one free form unit.

Alternately bring back the old Catachan Devil Squad from the Catachan Codex. 5-10 guys, infiltrate, cameo, etc, lots of special weapons. It won't be a great unit, they're still guardsmen, but a fun one to be able to field your A-Team, Howling Commandos, Last Chancers etc.

I guess the pro of them being in the same unit as the Officer gives the whole unit LOS!. The con is that without some serious benefit they just become a tax on the Officer.

With how lethal 9th is, most units are taken just as cheap as they can be, as there is no point in tooling up a unit that is just going to die. Plus taking them naked means they are a 35 point throwaway unit to start trading on mid board objectives.

Personally, I'd like to see command squads do more, even if they are 4-flamer anti-charge screen.

Here's an interesting Idea:

Orders no longer need LoS. If a unit has a vox operator that unit's ability to receive orders is now set to a range of 36".

I also like the idea that LoS weapons can get +1 to hit if the target is within LoS of a unit with a vox. Really play up the value of communication on the battlefield.

Stratagem:

Request Reinforcements!: A unit with a vox is able to receive an equivalent # of models sufficent to get it back to 100% strength, excluding special of HWT. Just bodies with Lasguns. Make it a rolled strat. Spend 1CP roll a d6. On a 2-4 get back that many. On a 5+ get back to full strength.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's an interesting Idea:

Orders no longer need LoS. If a unit has a vox operator that unit's ability to receive orders is now set to a range of 36".

I also like the idea that LoS weapons can get +1 to hit if the target is within LoS of a unit with a vox. Really play up the value of communication on the battlefield.

Stratagem:

Request Reinforcements!: A unit with a vox is able to receive an equivalent # of models sufficent to get it back to 100% strength, excluding special of HWT. Just bodies with Lasguns. Make it a rolled strat. Spend 1CP roll a d6. On a 2-4 get back that many. On a 5+ get back to full strength.

I love the idea of reinforcements. Reminds me a bit of Dawn of War 2 Retribution. Also its kind of like how Tyranids can bring back some of their unit strength automatically or via strat.

brainpsyk wrote:
I guess the pro of them being in the same unit as the Officer gives the whole unit LOS!. The con is that without some serious benefit they just become a tax on the Officer

You just make them optional. A 0-4 veteran models upgrade. So if you want to you can just take the CC or PC by themselves.

Presumably the CC is getting LOS protection and bubble wrapped by a platoon of guardsmen or from literally being inside a chimera/salamander. Perhaps transports need a dramatic repricing to make this pheasable. But hell, to look at it realistically we are talking company command for IG. Squishy little humans who are leading around 200-250 soldiers in combat. Should be confering buffs and commands from a cozy command post near the rear of the board, not running up the board hitting things with power sticks, leave that to the space marines or the more expendable more junior officers of platoon command squads who should, also again be being bubble wrapped by their platoons(or again, inside vehicles). If you want to pack veterans or weapons specialists into the command squad i propose the issue might be with those squads not being as readily avaliable as they probably should be. I really think Imperial guard should have multiple levels of command redundency because in their lower command structure they should be expecting heavy casualties. After all heavy expenditure of manpower is sorta their thing, so a sergeant can fill the role of a platoon commander and a platoon commander fill the role of a company commander if that model is killed but perhaps removing acsess to some special orders etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for banners, if you had a units retreating when they fail a morale(like in previous editions) save well they could retreat towards the banner and then automatically regroup within "" inches of the banner.

Just to give a better idea on what I’m suggesting. So the option is there to even say take a single veteran with a voxcaster. Just hide the unit behind obscuring and bark orders across the battlefield. Or you take a single veteran with a medi-pack and move up with the infantry. Or you could give them all plasma as usual and engage enemies from the safety of character protection.

And you proved exactly why it's a bad idea in one go.

Command Squad is wordsalad. It's useless.
The options are ALWAYS going to be ignored in favor of more special weapons.

You want to see special weapons? There's a Special Weapons Squad that needs to be used. Command Squads cannot and should not be able to be toting around quad plasmas or other nonsense.

Uh no. A 6+++ medipack with the ability to also heal D3 wounds is the standard in 9th edition. With good positioning that’s quite a lot of Guardsmen you can save, or keeping Bullgryns alive with heals.

That’s also very cheap. You’re already paying 35 for the Officer, so for an extra 17 points you get a good medic with character protection as well. Without having to give up extra VP.

Knowing GW they’ll likely limit the amount of special weapons to what comes in the box for command squads. So 1 flamer, 1 grenade launcher, 1 sniper rifle, 1 plasma, 1 melta, and 1 heavy flamer.

Special Weapon and Veteran Squads could theoretically keep their datasheets cause the have no dedicated boxes. Meaning they’re more viable for being able to take multiples of the same special weapon.

Jarms48 wrote:


Just to give a better idea on what I’m suggesting. So the option is there to even say take a single veteran with a voxcaster. Just hide the unit behind obscuring and bark orders across the battlefield. Or you take a single veteran with a medi-pack and move up with the infantry. Or you could give them all plasma as usual and engage enemies from the safety of character protection.

So you want an un-targetable ball of plasma guns.

Considering the facts:
1. They won’t have Core, so will lose out on RR auras.
2. Officers will likely lose the ability to order themselves.
3. Because of the 2 above there’s going to be little protection to stop them from killing themselves.
4. It’s not hard to wipe out the chaff protecting them with LoS. I’ve lost 100+ Guardsmen T1 many times.
5. It’s going to be around 103 points to actually do that, you’re paying for the Officer as well. You’ll also be losing out on the option for the medi-pack and standard.
6. It’s going to be incredibly likely that the Company Commander is limited to 1 per detachment.
7. With the bodyguard nerf anything with the ability to ignore LoS will kill them with a stiff breeze.
8. As I said above, it’s also likely GW will limit the special weapons to what’s in the Command Squad box.

ccs wrote:

Spoiler:

Jarms48 wrote:


Just to give a better idea on what I’m suggesting. So the option is there to even say take a single veteran with a voxcaster. Just hide the unit behind obscuring and bark orders across the battlefield. Or you take a single veteran with a medi-pack and move up with the infantry. Or you could give them all plasma as usual and engage enemies from the safety of character protection.

So you want an un-targetable ball of plasma guns.

Is that a problem?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's an interesting Idea:

Orders no longer need LoS. If a unit has a vox operator that unit's ability to receive orders is now set to a range of 36".

I also like the idea that LoS weapons can get +1 to hit if the target is within LoS of a unit with a vox. Really play up the value of communication on the battlefield.

Stratagem:

Request Reinforcements!: A unit with a vox is able to receive an equivalent # of models sufficent to get it back to 100% strength, excluding special of HWT. Just bodies with Lasguns. Make it a rolled strat. Spend 1CP roll a d6. On a 2-4 get back that many. On a 5+ get back to full strength.

Fezzik orders already don't need line of sight. The voice of command ability reads.

"This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase. Orders may only be issued to INFANTRY units within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as this unit. To issue an order, pick a target unit and choose which order you wish to issue from the table below. A unit may only be affected by one order per turn."

Improved range would be a good thing.

Company Commander would be in the field as that is roughly a Captain.

What about the idea of removing the Standards from the game? Yay, all unit's within 6" get +1 to attrition! For 15 points? Are you mad?

If it was all units that can draw line of sight to it, that would be something at least thematically reasonable, but it should really be something more valuable. Why not make it improve BS by 1 for all units within 12"? Or grant light cover, +1 to armor save?

Standard is just so much crap, cut cut cut.

Jarms48 wrote:

Spoiler:

Just to give a better idea on what I’m suggesting. So the option is there to even say take a single veteran with a voxcaster. Just hide the unit behind obscuring and bark orders across the battlefield. Or you take a single veteran with a medi-pack and move up with the infantry. Or you could give them all plasma as usual and engage enemies from the safety of character protection.

Fluffy, but too expensive. The most you would see is the Vox Caster, as the special weapons and medi-pak are too expensive to risk your commander early on for just a 6+++ on a guardsman. They could see value for Lieutenants, but if LTs. are Elite slots, then you'll probably never see LTs. either.

If the 9th edition guard codex rumor is true that we're going mostly tanks, then we really won't have the need for anything besides 1 CC and 1 unit for a vox caster.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What about the idea of removing the Standards from the game? Yay, all unit's within 6" get +1 to attrition! For 15 points? Are you mad?

If it was all units that can draw line of sight to it, that would be something at least thematically reasonable, but it should really be something more valuable. Why not make it improve BS by 1 for all units within 12"? Or grant light cover, +1 to armor save?

Standard is just so much crap, cut cut cut.

Guard standards should be a free upgrade. OR make it a standalone character that has some sort of special synergy aura like an Ancient or Imgaifier. Maybe nothing powerful but something that can be used to bolster an all infantry list and also keep some of that old school alive.

Give Sgts Comm Beads for 5pts. Done.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What about the idea of removing the Standards from the game? Yay, all unit's within 6" get +1 to attrition! For 15 points? Are you mad?

If it was all units that can draw line of sight to it, that would be something at least thematically reasonable, but it should really be something more valuable. Why not make it improve BS by 1 for all units within 12"? Or grant light cover, +1 to armor save?

Standard is just so much crap, cut cut cut.

My suggestion was 10 points + 7 for the Veteran. It's just points though, could easily drop it to 5 points. Or drop Veterans to 6 points, as I'd prefer Guardsmen going back to 5 points and remove the free wargear.

Presumably Take Aim! will likely be changed to +1 to Hit. As Company Commanders are likely to get a RR1 to Hit aura and Platoon Commanders a RR1 to Wound aura like other 9th edition characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

brainpsyk wrote:

Fluffy, but too expensive. The most you would see is the Vox Caster, as the special weapons and medi-pak are too expensive to risk your commander early on for just a 6+++ on a guardsman. They could see value for Lieutenants, but if LTs. are Elite slots, then you'll probably never see LTs. either.

If the 9th edition guard codex rumor is true that we're going mostly tanks, then we really won't have the need for anything besides 1 CC and 1 unit for a vox caster.

I don't think it's that expensive. Command Squad by itself now is 25 points. With individual Veterans at 6.5 points. My Veterans are based off costs now so I rounded up to 7 points, as Guardsmen are now 6 points. If Guardsmen are made 5 points again with free wargear removed then Veterans could go back to 6 points. That means 4 Veterans would be 24 points + 35 for the Officer. That's still pretty cheap for a HQ unit.

You could play around with the Standard and Medi-pack costs, but I think 10 points for the Medi-pack is a good deal. All you need to do is save 2 Guardsmen on the 6+++ to pay for the upgrade, save another 2 and you've also paid off more than the Veteran. Anything else is pure profit. That's also not even factoring the healing they can also do. That's more situational but it still needs to be considered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Give Sgts Comm Beads for 5pts. Done.

Why though? That would literally do the same thing as a vox.

Jarms48 wrote:

Presumably Take Aim! will likely be changed to +1 to Hit. As Company Commanders are likely to get a RR1 to Hit aura and Platoon Commanders a RR1 to Wound aura like other 9th edition characters.

There are several things working against TA! being +1 to hit with your ideas. If we have to pay for wargear, then most likely wargear won't be taken and the only order that will ever be issued is FRFSRF. 9th is just too lethal, so unless the point of the unit is obliterating something, we make it as cheap as possible, and FRFSRF (especially with HotE) is the best option there.

Jarms48 wrote:

brainpsyk wrote:

Fluffy, but too expensive. The most you would see is the Vox Caster, as the special weapons and medi-pak are too expensive to risk your commander early on for just a 6+++ on a guardsman. They could see value for Lieutenants, but if LTs. are Elite slots, then you'll probably never see LTs. either.

If the 9th edition guard codex rumor is true that we're going mostly tanks, then we really won't have the need for anything besides 1 CC and 1 unit for a vox caster.

I don't think it's that expensive. Command Squad by itself now is 25 points. With individual Veterans at 6.5 points. My Veterans are based off costs now so I rounded up to 7 points, as Guardsmen are now 6 points. If Guardsmen are made 5 points again with free wargear removed then Veterans could go back to 6 points. That means 4 Veterans would be 24 points + 35 for the Officer. That's still pretty cheap for a HQ unit.

You could play around with the Standard and Medi-pack costs, but I think 10 points for the Medi-pack is a good deal. All you need to do is save 2 Guardsmen on the 6+++ to pay for the upgrade, save another 2 and you've also paid off more than the Veteran. Anything else is pure profit. That's also not even factoring the healing they can also do. That's more situational but it still needs to be considered.

I don't see Guardsmen going back to 5ppm, I see them staying at 6ppm with free wargear. Ever since the AdMech codex, most infantry units do about 2W to intercessors for every 50 points, and 6ppm with free wargear puts Guardsmen right in that zone. I also don't see Conscripts getting nerfed, I think other units (re: tanks) will be made viable so we don't need to do Conscript spam.

In order to get those 3W to get the value of the Medi-pack, you have to put the officer & medic near 2 squads that just got wiped out, and wiping out 20 guardsmen is nothing, putting your officer in a high-risk low-reward scenario. At 5 points, a medi-pak is a definite. At 10 (which is 2 models), it's better to put those 10 points into something that can do 1W to marines (like 2 HK missiles).